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George Zimmerman ; Combined Threads
Tweet Topic Started: Apr 11 2012, 01:36 PM (8,510 Views)
IUCOLTFAN Jun 29 2013, 12:12 PM Post #916
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dreachon
Jun 29 2013, 11:52 AM
IUCOLTFAN
Jun 29 2013, 11:45 AM
dreachon
Jun 29 2013, 11:43 AM
IUCOLTFAN
Jun 29 2013, 11:37 AM
brumdog44
Jun 29 2013, 11:21 AM
Either you can point to what you claim Dreachon said or you can't. It's really that simple. Let's not act like searching for something is difficult....some of the links we have posted took a lot of time to find. In this case someone is accusing someone else of saying something so either they need to cede the point that it wasn't what was said or they can prove them wrong by finding where it was.
The threads were combined....several of the first pages are gone. Aaron is not just making that up. It may not be here anymore but Dreach did imply those things. I read it myself. Flame on me or Aaron or anyone else if you want, but there is no reason to lie. I have no ill will towards Dreach, those are his opinions. It's fine if you want to put the burden of prof out there, the fact is certain things were said and implied and those posts aren't here anymore. Call me what you want but I will back Aaron on this one. I remember the discussion distinctly. Maybe dreachs word means more to you than mine, Aaron's, Lars, etc....and that is quite alright. I remember the posts Aaron is referring too....I don't know them word for word but Aaron isn't far off in his assessment of what was said. We've all drank beer and slept many nights since this started and maybe Dreach really doesn't remember his words....but he did imply exactly what Aaron is saying. I remember it quite well.
You know how I know it's bullshit? Because in the first pages of this topic, we wouldn't have had pictures of Zimmerman's head or known they were fighting on concrete. Hence, I wouldn't have been able to make the claim that getting you head bashed on concrete isn't life threatening.
Whatever
You know that my first posts on this topic were about Zimmerman needing to be in jail and then you and Aaron saying I was convicting him without any evidence and then me saying you were right and I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions. Yes? You remember all that? All of that is in the NBC Doctored Audio thread.

http://s15.zetaboards.com/Our_Hoosier_Board/topic/7177141/1/

It's all right there. Posts don't "disappear". This tactic by Aaron and now you backing him up is nothing short of pathetic.
Call it what you want. You thinking no stitches or concussion meaning GZ was not being threatened or hurt is the pathetic thing. Never mind the straight right to the nose to get the scuffle started.

Like Aaron stated, a soccer referee was killed with one punch. You trying to determine the level of getting your ass kicked that has to be reached before a person feels threatened is the laughable part....like all humans are physical, mental, and emotional clones. If you were some sort of MD or forensics scientists, your calculations on the matter may carry some weight. Other than that, I'm not real sure how you seem to be in the mind of ever human on the planet....
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dreachon Jun 29 2013, 12:16 PM Post #917
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Jun 29 2013, 12:04 PM
Honestly Dreach, the more I think about it I just have to say this.....it really makes no difference to me. You have stated or implied on multiple occasions that your opinion was that no matter how bad he was being beaten that the injuries did no justify the shooting and you have every right to that opinion. Yet you never give any thought to the question of whether the beating would have gotten even more serious without the gunshot ending it. You are correct about one thing, if GZ would have just let Martin beat him into unconsciousness or death than Martin would have never been killed. But that didn't happen. We will never know how seriously threatened GZ may have felt inside his own mind....I'm not sure we will ever agree on that. All we can go by is what is playing out in court and, IMO, the states case is looking weaker by the day from a totally legal standpoint. It may not make you feel any better about what happened but, as many of us stated before and I believe you disagreed, the states case for murder is weak and it appears they overplayed their hand at least a little. Their "star witness" did their case no favors. If that is all they have then they overcharged and are gonna have to one up with a rabbit in their hat to get what they hope for. That doesn't mean I agree with anything Zimmerman did, it's just the reality of the situation. Cases shouldn't be tried on emotions, they should be decided with facts. IMO, the state doesn't have enough to get what they want. Maybe they still have a surprise for us, we will see.
That's fine, except you left out the fact that I believe the Stand Your Ground law applies to Martin, giving HIM the right to defend himself with deadly force. I believe Zimmerman lost that right when he chased Martin with a loaded weapon, didn't identify himself, and didn't say the police were on their way. So regardless of how vicious you think the beating was or could have gotten, that was Martin's right under SYG.

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IUCOLTFAN Jun 29 2013, 12:29 PM Post #918
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dreachon
Jun 29 2013, 12:16 PM
IUCOLTFAN
Jun 29 2013, 12:04 PM
Honestly Dreach, the more I think about it I just have to say this.....it really makes no difference to me. You have stated or implied on multiple occasions that your opinion was that no matter how bad he was being beaten that the injuries did no justify the shooting and you have every right to that opinion. Yet you never give any thought to the question of whether the beating would have gotten even more serious without the gunshot ending it. You are correct about one thing, if GZ would have just let Martin beat him into unconsciousness or death than Martin would have never been killed. But that didn't happen. We will never know how seriously threatened GZ may have felt inside his own mind....I'm not sure we will ever agree on that. All we can go by is what is playing out in court and, IMO, the states case is looking weaker by the day from a totally legal standpoint. It may not make you feel any better about what happened but, as many of us stated before and I believe you disagreed, the states case for murder is weak and it appears they overplayed their hand at least a little. Their "star witness" did their case no favors. If that is all they have then they overcharged and are gonna have to one up with a rabbit in their hat to get what they hope for. That doesn't mean I agree with anything Zimmerman did, it's just the reality of the situation. Cases shouldn't be tried on emotions, they should be decided with facts. IMO, the state doesn't have enough to get what they want. Maybe they still have a surprise for us, we will see.
That's fine, except you left out the fact that I believe the Stand Your Ground law applies to Martin, giving HIM the right to defend himself with deadly force. I believe Zimmerman lost that right when he chased Martin with a loaded weapon, didn't identify himself, and didn't say the police were on their way. So regardless of how vicious you think the beating was or could have gotten, that was Martin's right under SYG.

Which is where it gets murky....

Your beliefs makes it appear that zimmermans only option at that point was to let Martin beat him, POSSIBLY, into unconsciousness or even death and I think that is just absurd. You NEVER give up the right to protect your own life if you feel it is threatened.....that statement is not about law, it is about human nature. How does Zimmerman "lose his right" to protect his own life while being pummeled? I don't give a shit about the legal wordings of an SYG law....I'm quite sure that that wasn't runnings thru either mans mind while the physical altercation was going on. If Zimmerman brandished his weapon and verbally threatened him with it then I have zero problem with Martin beating is ass....I haven't heard or seen any evidence that that happened....hell, I don't even care that Trayvon punched him in the first place. What happened after the first physical confrontation reset the whole matter, IMO. If you wanna lay someone out for following you, I'm fine with that. Zimmerman obviously got his ass beat. Did the ass beating go too far to the point GZ fealt his life may be in danger.....for whatever reason, it appears so. I said from the beginning, legally, IMO murder was a huge leap.....I still think that. Doesn't mean I love GZ or hate tm....I wish none of it would have ever happened at all, but it did. Now that state has taken it opun themselves to PROVE murder. That's gonna be tough, IMO.

And I'm not sure what leaving out the FACT that in your opinion.......blah, blah, blah....has to do with anything. I'm not real sure what your interpretation of the SYG law has to do with facts or how this case is argued. SYG law or not, no person should be expected to allow another to take their life away without being able to defend themselves. And that goes for either man.....you are trying to establish at what point GZ should have felt personally threatened legally and I'm saying that that is something different for very person and an newer we will never know...
Edited by IUCOLTFAN, Jun 29 2013, 12:38 PM.
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dreachon Jun 29 2013, 12:44 PM Post #919
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It's not that I think Zimmerman had to just sit there and let Martin beat him into unconsciousness. It's that I don't believe Zimmerman did everything in his power to avoid shooting Martin. We're talking about the legal rights of each individual here. If I try to rob you and you pull a gun on me, I don't then have the right to shoot you in self defense. I have lost that right. Now emotionally I may only be thinking about self-preservation and feel like I was forced to shoot you, even though I didn't really want to. But legally I'm not allowed to do that. And legally I don't think Zimmerman was allowed to shoot Martin in self defense.
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IUCOLTFAN Jun 29 2013, 01:00 PM Post #920
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Jun 29 2013, 12:44 PM
It's not that I think Zimmerman had to just sit there and let Martin beat him into unconsciousness. It's that I don't believe Zimmerman did everything in his power to avoid shooting Martin. We're talking about the legal rights of each individual here. If I try to rob you and you pull a gun on me, I don't then have the right to shoot you in self defense. I have lost that right. Now emotionally I may only be thinking about self-preservation and feel like I was forced to shoot you, even though I didn't really want to. But legally I'm not allowed to do that. And legally I don't think Zimmerman was allowed to shoot Martin in self defense.
....then his only option left would have been possible unconsciousness or possibly death. Who to say Martin would have stopped until he was dead?

So if Zimmerman hadn't had the gun, this would be a case of Trayvon being charged with aggregated assault or a beating death to whatever degree or did Zimmerman lose his rights by following and Martin can just do whatever the hell he wanted after that point with no reprecussions?

I understand your view and I hope you agree that it gets murky no matter which side of it you are on. Seems to me the SYG law makes it murkier. If a man simply follows you, to what degree are you legally allowed to beat his ass? To within and up to "an inch of his life"? Seems like pretty excessive punishment for the "crime" of following.
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dreachon Jun 29 2013, 01:07 PM Post #921
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It absolutely gets murky and SYG def makes it murkier. There is a point of excessiveness that is vague. How much does the law allow you to beat someone up? I have no idea. I suppose if Zimmerman didn't have a gun and Martin beat him to death, or almost, then Martin would be in court and we'd be discussing what is legal. I've said this before, but personally I would not have used deadly force if I were Martin. My personal view is that you shouldn't kill someone unless it is a "him or me" situation. So if Martin killed Zimmerman, I'd absolutely be against that.
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MsJazen Jun 29 2013, 01:24 PM Post #922
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Mr Gray
Jun 27 2013, 08:59 AM
MsJazen
Jun 26 2013, 09:15 PM
Mr Gray
Jun 26 2013, 05:08 PM
MsJazen
Jun 26 2013, 03:30 PM
dreachon
Jun 26 2013, 03:16 PM
Mr Gray
Jun 26 2013, 03:12 PM
dreachon
Jun 26 2013, 03:00 PM
MsJazen
Jun 26 2013, 01:48 PM
I thought the prosecutor's opening statement was pretty strong and sums up what the case is really about:

[utube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tttdPpZx3EY[/utube]

The opening starts at 20:30.
A few things mentioned in there that are new or haven't been discussed yet on here.

1) The darkness of the alley.
2) The prosecution says that there was too little time between Zimmerman's phone call and the shooting for anything significant to take place, but then says Martin and Zimmerman had a heated exchange that lasted much longer than Zimmerman says. Not sure how that's really possible unless we're talking about the difference between 10 and 30 seconds.
3) The 2nd 911 call recorded by a neighbor
4) The fighting lessons.
5) No DNA of Zimmerman on Martin's fingernails or hands.

A lot of interesting things here, but I still see nothing that's concrete enough to lead me away from the belief that the entire case hinges on Martin's girlfriend's testimony and believability.
for me, I'm not sure that the girlfriend's testimony matters much at all. Her word against Zimmerman's, both obviously biased. The lack of DNA on the hands or fingernails means a lot to me though...curious what the defense's response is to that. Wouldn't he have GZ DNA all over him if he was beating his ass?
I hear what you're saying, but the girlfriend's testimony is the ONLY one on the defense's side that can contradict Zimmerman and say he continued to pursue Martin. It may be Zimmerman's word vs the girlfriend, but without her it's Zimmerman's word vs no one. A big diff, IMO.

EDIT: Prosecution's
I don't know why people would question the girlfriend's testimony. She does not have a reason in the world to lie.
:facepalm: Other than her boyfriend being killed...but that's certainly no motivation...
In my opinion, avoiding prison time is a much stronger motivation.
she wouldn't be facing any prison time for a lie in this case...it would be unprovable.
I was talking about GZ has a motive to lie: to avoid prison.
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Mr Gray Jun 29 2013, 01:24 PM Post #923
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dreachon
Jun 29 2013, 11:43 AM
IUCOLTFAN
Jun 29 2013, 11:37 AM
brumdog44
Jun 29 2013, 11:21 AM
Either you can point to what you claim Dreachon said or you can't. It's really that simple. Let's not act like searching for something is difficult....some of the links we have posted took a lot of time to find. In this case someone is accusing someone else of saying something so either they need to cede the point that it wasn't what was said or they can prove them wrong by finding where it was.
The threads were combined....several of the first pages are gone. Aaron is not just making that up. It may not be here anymore but Dreach did imply those things. I read it myself. Flame on me or Aaron or anyone else if you want, but there is no reason to lie. I have no ill will towards Dreach, those are his opinions. It's fine if you want to put the burden of prof out there, the fact is certain things were said and implied and those posts aren't here anymore. Call me what you want but I will back Aaron on this one. I remember the discussion distinctly. Maybe dreachs word means more to you than mine, Aaron's, Lars, etc....and that is quite alright. I remember the posts Aaron is referring too....I don't know them word for word but Aaron isn't far off in his assessment of what was said. We've all drank beer and slept many nights since this started and maybe Dreach really doesn't remember his words....but he did imply exactly what Aaron is saying. I remember it quite well.
You know how I know it's bullshit? Because in the first pages of this topic, we wouldn't have had pictures of Zimmerman's head or known they were fighting on concrete. Hence, I wouldn't have been able to make the claim that getting you head bashed on concrete isn't life threatening.
Those pictures were in the media prior to his arrest, which is when we started talking about it. As you can see from page 1 on this thread, that history is missing. Dreach, do you remember what you originally said about GZ's motives and the. Later apologized for?
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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MsJazen Jun 29 2013, 01:26 PM Post #924
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Jun 27 2013, 02:48 PM
Holy Shit....I hope MsJaz will retract her comments about TM's girlfriend being honest.

[utube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCSHJCwOi1U[/utube]
"Creepy Ass Cracker" isn't racial, and calling someone a creepy ass cracker isn't offensive, but repeating it is disrespectful.
Tell me when I ever said that she was honest. Date and time, please. And, while you're at it post a link to my post as well. I have never said that. Ever.

Good grief, do you even read what other people say on here?
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Mr Gray Jun 29 2013, 01:37 PM Post #925
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MsJazen
Jun 26 2013, 03:30 PM
dreachon
Jun 26 2013, 03:16 PM
Mr Gray
Jun 26 2013, 03:12 PM
dreachon
Jun 26 2013, 03:00 PM
MsJazen
Jun 26 2013, 01:48 PM
I thought the prosecutor's opening statement was pretty strong and sums up what the case is really about:

[utube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tttdPpZx3EY[/utube]

The opening starts at 20:30.
A few things mentioned in there that are new or haven't been discussed yet on here.

1) The darkness of the alley.
2) The prosecution says that there was too little time between Zimmerman's phone call and the shooting for anything significant to take place, but then says Martin and Zimmerman had a heated exchange that lasted much longer than Zimmerman says. Not sure how that's really possible unless we're talking about the difference between 10 and 30 seconds.
3) The 2nd 911 call recorded by a neighbor
4) The fighting lessons.
5) No DNA of Zimmerman on Martin's fingernails or hands.

A lot of interesting things here, but I still see nothing that's concrete enough to lead me away from the belief that the entire case hinges on Martin's girlfriend's testimony and believability.
for me, I'm not sure that the girlfriend's testimony matters much at all. Her word against Zimmerman's, both obviously biased. The lack of DNA on the hands or fingernails means a lot to me though...curious what the defense's response is to that. Wouldn't he have GZ DNA all over him if he was beating his ass?
I hear what you're saying, but the girlfriend's testimony is the ONLY one on the defense's side that can contradict Zimmerman and say he continued to pursue Martin. It may be Zimmerman's word vs the girlfriend, but without her it's Zimmerman's word vs no one. A big diff, IMO.

EDIT: Prosecution's
I don't know why people would question the girlfriend's testimony. She does not have a reason in the world to lie. GZ does. If he is guilty and he lies (and the jury believes him), he can avoid prison. Plus, he is already a proven liar. In court.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/george-zimmerman-credibility-issue-legal-case-bond-revoked-article-1.1088745
Here you go Ms Jaz

"I don't know why people would question the girlfriend's testimony. She does not have a reason in the world to lie."

Now, are you going to claim that you weren't implying that she was an honest witness?
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon Jun 29 2013, 01:38 PM Post #926
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Jun 29 2013, 01:24 PM
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Jun 29 2013, 11:43 AM
IUCOLTFAN
Jun 29 2013, 11:37 AM
brumdog44
Jun 29 2013, 11:21 AM
Either you can point to what you claim Dreachon said or you can't. It's really that simple. Let's not act like searching for something is difficult....some of the links we have posted took a lot of time to find. In this case someone is accusing someone else of saying something so either they need to cede the point that it wasn't what was said or they can prove them wrong by finding where it was.
The threads were combined....several of the first pages are gone. Aaron is not just making that up. It may not be here anymore but Dreach did imply those things. I read it myself. Flame on me or Aaron or anyone else if you want, but there is no reason to lie. I have no ill will towards Dreach, those are his opinions. It's fine if you want to put the burden of prof out there, the fact is certain things were said and implied and those posts aren't here anymore. Call me what you want but I will back Aaron on this one. I remember the discussion distinctly. Maybe dreachs word means more to you than mine, Aaron's, Lars, etc....and that is quite alright. I remember the posts Aaron is referring too....I don't know them word for word but Aaron isn't far off in his assessment of what was said. We've all drank beer and slept many nights since this started and maybe Dreach really doesn't remember his words....but he did imply exactly what Aaron is saying. I remember it quite well.
You know how I know it's bullshit? Because in the first pages of this topic, we wouldn't have had pictures of Zimmerman's head or known they were fighting on concrete. Hence, I wouldn't have been able to make the claim that getting you head bashed on concrete isn't life threatening.
Those pictures were in the media prior to his arrest, which is when we started talking about it. As you can see from page 1 on this thread, that history is missing. Dreach, do you remember what you originally said about GZ's motives and the. Later apologized for?
It's all in the NBC thread I linked earlier. Here is your post in that thread talking about how I had to retract my earlier statements. Not lost.

http://s15.zetaboards.com/Our_Hoosier_Board/single/?p=8248986&t=7177141

Now address the fact that you have made shit up about what I said twice now. Quit avoiding it like the plague.
Edited by dreachon, Jun 29 2013, 01:38 PM.
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Mr Gray Jun 29 2013, 01:51 PM Post #927
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Here's one I found with a quick search dreach.

http://s15.zetaboards.com/Our_Hoosier_Board/single/?p=8248921&t=7177141
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray Jun 29 2013, 01:54 PM Post #928
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Dreach, you have made comments in the past on here that a person shouldn't use deadly force in an altercation unless they the danger reaches a certain point. You went from there to explain that since GZs wounds weren't severe, he never reached that point, thus should t use deadly force, correct? So can you please explain clearly what you believe that point is when deadly force is appropriate?
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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brumdog44 Jun 29 2013, 01:56 PM Post #929
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Shit or get off the pot -- either you can back up what you claim he said was true or not. It's that simple. Everything else is just smoke and mirrors.
Edited by brumdog44, Jun 29 2013, 01:58 PM.
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dreachon Jun 29 2013, 02:20 PM Post #930
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Jun 29 2013, 01:51 PM
Here's one I found with a quick search dreach.

http://s15.zetaboards.com/Our_Hoosier_Board/single/?p=8248921&t=7177141
Wonderful that you found that, although it doesn't back up either of your previous claims. And of course later on in that thread I admitted that it might not be a racial slur.

http://s15.zetaboards.com/Our_Hoosier_Board/single/?p=8248932&t=7177141

So you are just going to totally ignore this post?

http://s15.zetaboards.com/Our_Hoosier_Board/single/?p=8301867&t=7184833

This is beneath you, and the rest of the board, aaron. We've had heated discussions, but people don't flat out lie about what another person said and then stick to that lie in the face nothing to back up their claims.
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