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George Zimmerman ; Combined Threads
Tweet Topic Started: Apr 11 2012, 01:36 PM (8,507 Views)
dreachon Jun 30 2013, 01:15 PM Post #961
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dreachon
Jun 30 2013, 01:14 PM
IUCOLTFAN
Jun 30 2013, 11:51 AM
dreachon
Jun 30 2013, 11:32 AM
IUCOLTFAN
Jun 30 2013, 11:28 AM
dreachon
Jun 29 2013, 01:07 PM
It absolutely gets murky and SYG def makes it murkier. There is a point of excessiveness that is vague. How much does the law allow you to beat someone up? I have no idea. I suppose if Zimmerman didn't have a gun and Martin beat him to death, or almost, then Martin would be in court and we'd be discussing what is legal. I've said this before, but personally I would not have used deadly force if I were Martin. My personal view is that you shouldn't kill someone unless it is a "him or me" situation. So if Martin killed Zimmerman, I'd absolutely be against that.
You can't decide if it were "him or me" from where you are, you have to be either the "him" or the "me" involved, right?
To be sure, absolutely. We're only guessing. I've always prefaced my opinion on this case based on what I believe happened, not what definitely happened cuz I don't know.
If we all agree that LEGALLY one punch is not deadly force, is (hypothetically) 10 repeated punches and 2 slams of the head to the ground potentially life threatening? Would the person having his ass beat that badly then have a right to defend himself? What is the line in your opinion?

The way you word your views, Zimmerman simply following Martin caused him to totally lose any rights he had regardless of how severely he was beaten or even possibly killed.....that is the point were I stop following your logic. IMO, you never lose the right to save your own life if threatened. He may have to accept a few punches in the face for following Martin, I have zero problem with that, but he doesn't have to accept possible death. It appears that the situation had one PHYSICAL moment, IMO both parties where on equal ground from that point on. It's just the way I see it, it's ok for us to disagree. IMO, this will end in the way may of us have stated from the beginning....the legal case is weak at best. That doesn't mean I like the fact that a person was killed, I wih it would have never happened.
We will never get anywhere if you don't first acknowledge the fact that we have very different views of the situation.

Your view - GZ followed Martin. Martin attacked him. GZ defended himself.
My view - GZ chased Martin in the dark with a loaded weapon, failed to identify himself or the fact that police were called. Martin obviously has no idea what's going on cuz he's just walking home with skittles so he is justifiably threatened by Zimmerman's actions and defends himself. Also, I don't believe GZ was having his head smashed into concrete, as you continually like to say.

So, IMO, GZ's incredibly irresponsible actions forced Martin into a situation where he had to fight or flight. He chose fight. I believe Zimmerman brought the physical confrontation on himself based on his own recklessness. Therefore, Martin had every right to the SYG law while Zimmerman forfeited that right based on his prior actions.
And let me add, under your scenario, I completely agree with you. If Zimmerman followed Martin and tried to avoid a fight but Martin attacked him, then I am 100% on Zimmerman's side. I just don't believe that's what actually happened.
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dreachon Jun 30 2013, 01:17 PM Post #962
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dreachon
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Jun 30 2013, 11:28 AM
dreachon
Jun 29 2013, 01:07 PM
It absolutely gets murky and SYG def makes it murkier. There is a point of excessiveness that is vague. How much does the law allow you to beat someone up? I have no idea. I suppose if Zimmerman didn't have a gun and Martin beat him to death, or almost, then Martin would be in court and we'd be discussing what is legal. I've said this before, but personally I would not have used deadly force if I were Martin. My personal view is that you shouldn't kill someone unless it is a "him or me" situation. So if Martin killed Zimmerman, I'd absolutely be against that.
You can't decide if it were "him or me" from where you are, you have to be either the "him" or the "me" involved, right?
To be sure, absolutely. We're only guessing. I've always prefaced my opinion on this case based on what I believe happened, not what definitely happened cuz I don't know.
And that, my friend, is "reasonable doubt," and why GZ walks.
I also think GZ walks. Don't confuse my personal opinion of what I THINK happened, with the burden of proof that is required by a jury member to convict someone. If I was on the jury, I'd likely acquit GZ as well, or convict him of a lesser charge.
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brumdog44 Jun 30 2013, 01:32 PM Post #963
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Yeah, I'm not sure why we have people saying that found innocence or guilt means the person was guilty or innocent. We have talked repeatedly about other cases on here with bad decisions -- and not just from a legal standpoint. This is the nature of without a shadow of a doubt....more guilty people will be found innocent than innocent will be found guilty. Ask Caylee Anthony. IMO, Zimmerman is probably going to be found not guilty. I'm more interested in the ethical, not legal aspect of his guilt or innocence in this case.

The one positive thing that has come out of all of this is that the stand your ground policies will start to look to get more narrowly defined.....right now they are simply too broad IMO.
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HoosierLars Jun 30 2013, 01:56 PM Post #964
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Jun 30 2013, 01:03 PM
You are trying to paint a scene where the reality does not match your picture. TM did not kill anyone that night.
Eel, The reality is TM initiated the physical contact, broke GZ's nose, knocked him to the ground, and was pummeling his head. I don't think it's productive to debate whether GZ could have been seriously injured--the pictures speak for themselves.

Dreach, if TM knew GZ had a gun, he probably won't have tried to beat him to death.
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HoosierLars Jun 30 2013, 02:01 PM Post #965
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Jun 30 2013, 12:33 PM
http://www.wnd.com/2013/04/police-buried-trayvons-criminal-history/
“Oh, God, oh, my God, oh, God,” one major reportedly said when first looking at Martin’s data. He realized that Martin had been suspended twice already that school year for offenses that should have gotten him arrested – once for getting caught with a burglary tool and a dozen items of female jewelry, the second time for getting caught with marijuana and a marijuana pipe.

In each case, the case file on Martin was fudged to make the crime less serious than it was. As one detective told IA, the arrest statistics coming out of Martin’s school, Michael Krop Senior, had been “quite high,” and the detectives “needed to find some way to lower the stats.” This directive allegedly came from Hurley.
Lars,

That is the problem with this case it has taken a left right divide.

Please never use wnd as a source. That is the Daily Kos of the wacky right
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html
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eelbor Jun 30 2013, 02:05 PM Post #966
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You are trying to paint a scene where the reality does not match your picture. TM did not kill anyone that night.
Eel, The reality is TM initiated the physical contact, broke GZ's nose, knocked him to the ground, and was pummeling his head. I don't think it's productive to debate whether GZ could have been seriously injured--the pictures speak for themselves.

Dreach, if TM knew GZ had a gun, he probably won't have tried to beat him to death.
I am sure Zimmerman would love to have your evidence to use in court. You presume much and know little. The reality,as you put it, is you have no idea what happened, just like I don't. I have said very little about this case, but I call bullshit when I see it.
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HoosierLars Jun 30 2013, 02:07 PM Post #967
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Jun 30 2013, 01:03 PM
You are trying to paint a scene where the reality does not match your picture. TM did not kill anyone that night.
Eel, The reality is TM initiated the physical contact, broke GZ's nose, knocked him to the ground, and was pummeling his head. I don't think it's productive to debate whether GZ could have been seriously injured--the pictures speak for themselves.

Dreach, if TM knew GZ had a gun, he probably won't have tried to beat him to death.
I am sure Zimmerman would love to have your evidence to use in court. You presume much and know little. The reality,as you put it, is you have no idea what happened, just like I don't. I have said very little about this case, but I call bullshit when I see it.
I'm seen the pictures, and the one eye witness who said in court that TM was on top pummeling GZ. Now tell me how the evidence can convict GZ without a reasonable doubt?
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dreachon Jun 30 2013, 03:16 PM Post #968
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The reality is TM initiated the physical contact
You don't know that and you still haven't answered my question.
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boilergrad01 Jun 30 2013, 03:29 PM Post #969
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eelbor
Jun 30 2013, 02:05 PM
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Jun 30 2013, 01:56 PM
eelbor
Jun 30 2013, 01:03 PM
You are trying to paint a scene where the reality does not match your picture. TM did not kill anyone that night.
Eel, The reality is TM initiated the physical contact, broke GZ's nose, knocked him to the ground, and was pummeling his head. I don't think it's productive to debate whether GZ could have been seriously injured--the pictures speak for themselves.

Dreach, if TM knew GZ had a gun, he probably won't have tried to beat him to death.
I am sure Zimmerman would love to have your evidence to use in court. You presume much and know little. The reality,as you put it, is you have no idea what happened, just like I don't. I have said very little about this case, but I call bullshit when I see it.
I'm seen the pictures, and the one eye witness who said in court that TM was on top pummeling GZ. Now tell me how the evidence can convict GZ without a reasonable doubt?
Lars,

TM would not have been able to attack GZ if GZ did not pursue him.

The right left racial msnbc nbc msm media bs is stupid.

A kid is dead.

A kid is dead because GZ saw a kid walking in his neighborhood and had to follow him and confront him. it is sick the media circus over this.

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Bobobinc Jun 30 2013, 03:31 PM Post #970
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HOF thread........mostly for the fact that the argument has essentially stayed the same for 65 pages.
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HoosierLars Jun 30 2013, 04:18 PM Post #971
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boilergrad01
Jun 30 2013, 03:29 PM
HoosierLars
Jun 30 2013, 02:07 PM
eelbor
Jun 30 2013, 02:05 PM
HoosierLars
Jun 30 2013, 01:56 PM
eelbor
Jun 30 2013, 01:03 PM
You are trying to paint a scene where the reality does not match your picture. TM did not kill anyone that night.
Eel, The reality is TM initiated the physical contact, broke GZ's nose, knocked him to the ground, and was pummeling his head. I don't think it's productive to debate whether GZ could have been seriously injured--the pictures speak for themselves.

Dreach, if TM knew GZ had a gun, he probably won't have tried to beat him to death.
I am sure Zimmerman would love to have your evidence to use in court. You presume much and know little. The reality,as you put it, is you have no idea what happened, just like I don't. I have said very little about this case, but I call bullshit when I see it.
I'm seen the pictures, and the one eye witness who said in court that TM was on top pummeling GZ. Now tell me how the evidence can convict GZ without a reasonable doubt?
Lars,

TM would not have been able to attack GZ if GZ did not pursue him.

The right left racial msnbc nbc msm media bs is stupid.

A kid is dead.

A kid is dead because GZ saw a kid walking in his neighborhood and had to follow him and confront him. it is sick the media circus over this.

Correct. TM would be alive if many other events did or did not happen, e.g. him getting kicked out of school or his parents getting divorced.

There's not a law against pursuing someone. GZ was trying to protect his neighborhood. The last thing our country needs is more apathy. Think of how many people die because someone was afraid or unwilling to get involved and act.

Given the facts presented so far (and I paid little attention one year ago), how in the hell did the prosecution make 2nd degree murder charges?
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HoosierLars Jun 30 2013, 04:25 PM Post #972
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dreachon
Jun 30 2013, 10:57 AM
HoosierLars
Jun 30 2013, 10:41 AM
dreachon
Jun 30 2013, 07:14 AM
HoosierLars
Jun 29 2013, 11:16 PM
dreachon
Jun 28 2013, 08:11 PM
Mr Gray
Jun 28 2013, 06:33 PM
I'll try to clarify again. Yes or no, if someone is on top of someone else punching and or slamming their head into the ground, is the person on bottom's life potentially in danger?
Sorry aaron, but I'm not going to let you conveniently get out of this one. You said I said something. Back it up. I'll answer your question after you either find the link where I said having your head slammed into concrete isn't potentially fatal, or admit that you just made that shit up.
Dreach, I don't remember the details, but think your overall take was GZ was getting his ass kicked but it wasn't potentially lethal. I never understood your logic. If someone is on top of me raining down blows to my head, how can that not be considered potentially lethal?

Looking at the facts that have come out in this case, I can see why the police initially decided not to charge GZ, and think this trial is a colossal waste of time and resources.
Not that it wasn't potentially lethal, but that Martin had the right to defend himself under SYG laws, so it doesn't matter if Zimmerman felt his life was in danger. I understand why he would shoot Martin if he felt his life was in danger from the punches, but legally I believe he lost the RIGHT to shoot Martin.

Whoops, missed this reply before my last post. The "stand your ground" law doesn't give anyone the right to kill someone because they are being followed.
Question, Lars. We agree that SYG allows someone to use force to defend themselves. What type of force should be allowed? I mean you are saying that in order to defend yourself, you are not allowed to even punch someone? Again, punching is not legally defined as "deadly force", regardless of whether someone CAN potentially die from a punch. So let's pretend that everyone is in agreement that Martin had the right to defend himself. How should he have done it?
Dreach, I assume this is the question you want answered.

First of all, someone does NOT have the right to physically assault someone for following them, IMO. But I'll play along and "pretend that everyone is in agreement that Martin had the right to defend himself." Martin had the right to throw the blow that broke GZ's nose, and the right to knock him to the ground. That's where it should have ended. Pummeling the head and banging the head on the ground is excessive.

I can't see your view that since GZ followed TM, he forfeited his SYG rights. What if he had given a look that TM found menacing? What if he made a disparaging remark about TM's favorite football team? Like I've said, our society shouldn't tolerate physical violence.
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dreachon Jun 30 2013, 04:49 PM Post #973
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Jun 30 2013, 10:41 AM
dreachon
Jun 30 2013, 07:14 AM
HoosierLars
Jun 29 2013, 11:16 PM
dreachon
Jun 28 2013, 08:11 PM
Mr Gray
Jun 28 2013, 06:33 PM
I'll try to clarify again. Yes or no, if someone is on top of someone else punching and or slamming their head into the ground, is the person on bottom's life potentially in danger?
Sorry aaron, but I'm not going to let you conveniently get out of this one. You said I said something. Back it up. I'll answer your question after you either find the link where I said having your head slammed into concrete isn't potentially fatal, or admit that you just made that shit up.
Dreach, I don't remember the details, but think your overall take was GZ was getting his ass kicked but it wasn't potentially lethal. I never understood your logic. If someone is on top of me raining down blows to my head, how can that not be considered potentially lethal?

Looking at the facts that have come out in this case, I can see why the police initially decided not to charge GZ, and think this trial is a colossal waste of time and resources.
Not that it wasn't potentially lethal, but that Martin had the right to defend himself under SYG laws, so it doesn't matter if Zimmerman felt his life was in danger. I understand why he would shoot Martin if he felt his life was in danger from the punches, but legally I believe he lost the RIGHT to shoot Martin.

Whoops, missed this reply before my last post. The "stand your ground" law doesn't give anyone the right to kill someone because they are being followed.
Question, Lars. We agree that SYG allows someone to use force to defend themselves. What type of force should be allowed? I mean you are saying that in order to defend yourself, you are not allowed to even punch someone? Again, punching is not legally defined as "deadly force", regardless of whether someone CAN potentially die from a punch. So let's pretend that everyone is in agreement that Martin had the right to defend himself. How should he have done it?
Dreach, I assume this is the question you want answered.

First of all, someone does NOT have the right to physically assault someone for following them, IMO. But I'll play along and "pretend that everyone is in agreement that Martin had the right to defend himself." Martin had the right to throw the blow that broke GZ's nose, and the right to knock him to the ground. That's where it should have ended. Pummeling the head and banging the head on the ground is excessive.

I can't see your view that since GZ followed TM, he forfeited his SYG rights. What if he had given a look that TM found menacing? What if he made a disparaging remark about TM's favorite football team? Like I've said, our society shouldn't tolerate physical violence.
I understand your opinion on physical violence, and I do agree, but the fact is that the SYG law permits physical violence when someone is threatened.

You are making a lot of assumptions about the fight that we just don't know.

You're assuming Martin threw the first punch.
You're assuming the first punch broke Zimmerman's nose and knocked him to the ground.
You're assuming Martin then got on top of Zimmerman and started pummeling him and banging his head into the ground.

What if these assumptions are wrong?
What if Zimmerman threw the first punch? Or pushed Martin first?
What if they wrestled on the ground (scraping Zimmerman's head) before Martin got the upper hand?

Your characterization of Zimmerman benignly following Martin is also a big assumption. He followed Martin in his car. Then got out of his car and chased after Martin. Then they came together and Zimmerman didn't identify himself, why he was following Martin or that the police were on their way. You spoke of our country's apathy and unwilling to do the right thing. I agree. But this is NOT the responsible way to get involved. Zimmerman's actions should serve as a textbook case of what NOT to do. He was incredibly irresponsible and his actions, legal or not, directly led to the death of a 17 year old kid walking home with skittles.
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eelbor Jun 30 2013, 07:19 PM Post #974
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Jun 30 2013, 01:03 PM
You are trying to paint a scene where the reality does not match your picture. TM did not kill anyone that night.
Eel, The reality is TM initiated the physical contact, broke GZ's nose, knocked him to the ground, and was pummeling his head. I don't think it's productive to debate whether GZ could have been seriously injured--the pictures speak for themselves.

Dreach, if TM knew GZ had a gun, he probably won't have tried to beat him to death.
I am sure Zimmerman would love to have your evidence to use in court. You presume much and know little. The reality,as you put it, is you have no idea what happened, just like I don't. I have said very little about this case, but I call bullshit when I see it.
I'm seen the pictures, and the one eye witness who said in court that TM was on top pummeling GZ. Now tell me how the evidence can convict GZ without a reasonable doubt?
Huge difference between probable doubt and saying unequivocally that "TM initiated the physical contact, broke GZ's nose, knocked him to the ground, and was pummeling his head."

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Meat is Murder. Sweet, delicious murder.
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HoosierLars Jun 30 2013, 07:27 PM Post #975
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I'm not basing my conclusion on any assumptions. Like I've clearly stated, my decision to acquit is based on two facts of the case:
1) Physical evidence showing GZ got his ass kicked.
2) Best eye witness said TM was on top pummeling GZ.

Game, set, and match for the defense, IMO. All of the other arguments are moot.
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