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George Zimmerman ; Combined Threads
Tweet Topic Started: Apr 11 2012, 01:36 PM (8,501 Views)
dreachon Jul 7 2013, 01:04 PM Post #1051
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Mr Gray
Jul 6 2013, 12:21 AM
dreachon
Jul 5 2013, 08:37 PM
Other inconsistencies that don't prove the case one way or another, but just don't sit well with me.

There appear to be no areas at the scene with which to hide and ambush someone, as Zimmerman claimed.

If Martin is sitting on Zimmerman MMA style, then that would mean his crotch and legs are above Zimmerman's hips. So then the gun Zimmerman had on him would be behind Martin. How did he see it? and subsequently try to go for it?

The baldness of Zimmerman really gets me because in addition to being bald, it was raining out. I just don't see how Martin could be grabbing Zimmerman's head and slamming to the ground without either digging his hands into Zimmerman's face or grabbing his ears. Zimmerman never said anything about his ears being grabbed and there were no injuries to his ears. And I'm not even sure that would work anyways. Might just have ripped his ears off.

And if he is grabbing Zimmerman's head with both hands than he's obviously not still punching him. Zimmerman had 50 pounds on the kid. He really couldn't buck Martin off of him?

Real life DNA transfer isn't like CSI TV. Punching someone wouldn't necessarily transfer, and the rain would also be a factor. Regarding slamming his head, I would assume he just grabbed his head like a basketball, which wouldn't transfer DNA and wouldn't require digging his nails into his scalp.
And that's really the only way to do it. 2 hands, side of the head like a basketball. And Zimmerman, with both hands free, 50 lbs, and much stronger than Martin somehow couldn't manage to get out of that.

The rain and DNA I honestly don't know enough about. We saw the blood on Zimmerman's head. It certainly didn't just wash off in the rain. I really am not sure what it would take to rinse DNA evidence off of someone's hand. The police report said when the office arrived that Martin's hands were folded under his chest as he lay face down. So for at least a little while, his hands were protected from the rain. But I honestly don't know enough about it to say definitively one way or another.
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brumdog44 Jul 7 2013, 06:22 PM Post #1052
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And the hands underneath Martin contradicts Zimmerman's statement about how he left his hands.
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Mr Gray Jul 7 2013, 07:13 PM Post #1053
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brumdog44
Jul 7 2013, 06:22 PM
And the hands underneath Martin contradicts Zimmerman's statement about how he left his hands.
How so? I didn't catch that.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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brumdog44 Jul 7 2013, 07:39 PM Post #1054
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brumdog44
Jul 7 2013, 06:22 PM
And the hands underneath Martin contradicts Zimmerman's statement about how he left his hands.
How so? I didn't catch that.
Zimmerman told police that after he fired, he got on Martin's back and pinned his arms down.

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/07/02/george-zimmerman-trial-trayvon-martin-day-7
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HoosierLars Jul 7 2013, 09:02 PM Post #1055
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brumdog44
Jul 7 2013, 07:39 PM
Mr Gray
Jul 7 2013, 07:13 PM
brumdog44
Jul 7 2013, 06:22 PM
And the hands underneath Martin contradicts Zimmerman's statement about how he left his hands.
How so? I didn't catch that.
Zimmerman told police that after he fired, he got on Martin's back and pinned his arms down.

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/07/02/george-zimmerman-trial-trayvon-martin-day-7
Seems like a small or non-point to me. I recall that TM may have lived for 5-10 min, so after GZ released his arms, he could have simply pulled them in.
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MsJazen Jul 7 2013, 11:30 PM Post #1056
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Found this here:

Quote:
 
10 Questions I want answered from the accused murderer... questions which SHOULD HAVE been asked by police:

1. Where did you go for two minutes after hanging up with police?
2. Why did you need to get out of the car to find a street address...
3. Why did you say in court you thought Trayvon was your age, when you described him as a teenager and a "kid" in the call to police.
4. Why did you think Trayvon was breaking into Taaffee's house when the person responsible for all the burglaries in the community was arrested 3 weeks prior?
5. Which one of Trayvon's hands grabbed the gun... and how could he grab it if he was straddling you... and how could his hand slide across your chest to the gun if he was straddling you...
6. How was he smashing your head into the cement... did he grab your hair or your ears?
7. Where are the bushes Trayvon jumped out of?
8. Do you always forget you are carrying your gun?
9. Why were you carrying your gun to Target... I thought you got it to protect yourself from the neighborhood stray dog.
10. How close to Trayvon were you when you were following him in your car?

...and since you said you were so scared of Trayvon... why did you get out of the safety of your vehicle to find an address...
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brumdog44 Jul 8 2013, 12:44 AM Post #1057
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I do think it needs to be asked....if Trayvon was covering Zimmerman's mouth and nose, then how could it have been Zimmerman yelling for help?
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Mr Gray Jul 8 2013, 07:46 AM Post #1058
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Jul 8 2013, 12:44 AM
I do think it needs to be asked....if Trayvon was covering Zimmerman's mouth and nose, then how could it have been Zimmerman yelling for help?
It's not like they were being perfectly still during that brum. I would be shaking my head side to side trying to get loose which would certainly enable me to yell some.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon Jul 8 2013, 08:05 AM Post #1059
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HoosierLars
Jul 7 2013, 09:02 PM
brumdog44
Jul 7 2013, 07:39 PM
Mr Gray
Jul 7 2013, 07:13 PM
brumdog44
Jul 7 2013, 06:22 PM
And the hands underneath Martin contradicts Zimmerman's statement about how he left his hands.
How so? I didn't catch that.
Zimmerman told police that after he fired, he got on Martin's back and pinned his arms down.

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/07/02/george-zimmerman-trial-trayvon-martin-day-7
Seems like a small or non-point to me. I recall that TM may have lived for 5-10 min, so after GZ released his arms, he could have simply pulled them in.
Rachel Jeantel was called a liar on here for originally saying she didn't go to the funeral because she was sick and then later revealing she didn't go because she didn't want to deal with the death of her friend. Also a pretty non-point. So if she's going to be labeled a liar, then the same has to be done for Zimmerman.
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Mr Gray Jul 8 2013, 08:17 AM Post #1060
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dreachon
Jul 8 2013, 08:05 AM
HoosierLars
Jul 7 2013, 09:02 PM
brumdog44
Jul 7 2013, 07:39 PM
Mr Gray
Jul 7 2013, 07:13 PM
brumdog44
Jul 7 2013, 06:22 PM
And the hands underneath Martin contradicts Zimmerman's statement about how he left his hands.
How so? I didn't catch that.
Zimmerman told police that after he fired, he got on Martin's back and pinned his arms down.

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/07/02/george-zimmerman-trial-trayvon-martin-day-7
Seems like a small or non-point to me. I recall that TM may have lived for 5-10 min, so after GZ released his arms, he could have simply pulled them in.
Rachel Jeantel was called a liar on here for originally saying she didn't go to the funeral because she was sick and then later revealing she didn't go because she didn't want to deal with the death of her friend. Also a pretty non-point. So if she's going to be labeled a liar, then the same has to be done for Zimmerman.
this doesn't prove that GZ lied....Rachel left no doubt.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray Jul 8 2013, 08:34 AM Post #1061
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Here are 2 analysis' that I think are pretty good regarding the law in this case. The author seems to have read our forum and answered some of our questions.

Does StandYourGround depend on who started the fight?
Here is the part that is crazy to me, but would benefit GZ if he was envoking SYG (which he isn't)
The law also states that the initial aggressor is permitted to invoke the law and claim self defense if in response to his own aggression,

“Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant.”


Burden of Proof
I found the entire article interesting, but here are a few segments that seem to address much of what we have discussed throughout this thread.

Let's also assume they believe Zimmerman approached Martin and it is only because Zimmerman was tailing Trayvon Martin that a fight ensued. First of all, the fact that there was a fight at all makes a murder conviction difficult. To win a murder conviction, they have to show he had the intent to kill and did so with "depraved mind, hatred, malice, evil intent or ill will."

In many self defense cases the person who shoots a fatal bullet suffers no injuries at all and instead argues he or she protected himself or herself from injury by shooting the attacker.

So wait, let's take a step back. If jurors believe Zimmerman followed Martin, maybe even racially profiled him and initiated the altercation, can Zimmerman still legally claim he needed to defend himself and walk free? Yes.


To be clear, if we were talking about Florida's controversial Stand Your Ground Law, who initiated the encounter would be crucial and the defendant would have the burden to prove that he should not be held legally responsible for the shooting. That law, which can protect a shooter from even going to trial, wasn't designed for someone who starts a fight and then loses the fight he initiated.

Zimmerman waived a pre-trial Stand Your Ground hearing and went directly to trial (likely because his lawyers knew they would lose) and simply argued classic self-defense, which is different. Now no matter how it started, if Zimmerman shot Martin because he reasonably believed it was the only way to protect himself from "great bodily harm" then he is not guilty. That's the law.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon Jul 8 2013, 08:41 AM Post #1062
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I think most of us agree that Zimmerman will not be found guilty of murder. At this point we're merely discussing whether we believe he's actually guilty, not whether he will be found guilty. As for this part:

Quote:
 
and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant.”


Obviously we're not in agreement that Zimmerman did that.
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Mr Gray Jul 8 2013, 08:53 AM Post #1063
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Jul 8 2013, 08:41 AM
I think most of us agree that Zimmerman will not be found guilty of murder. At this point we're merely discussing whether we believe he's actually guilty, not whether he will be found guilty. As for this part:

Quote:
 
and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant.”


Obviously we're not in agreement that Zimmerman did that.
the way I read the article, that clause only applies to the (very odd) case where someone starts a fight and then invokes SYG when they are getting their ass beat and end up shooting the person they started the fight with. If that is the case in the Zimmerman situation (if he started the physical fight) then I think the law is BS and Zimmerman is wrong. Aside from the lack of media attention, I wonder how a case like this would work out had TM beaten GZ to death instead.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon Jul 8 2013, 09:27 AM Post #1064
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Jul 8 2013, 08:53 AM
dreachon
Jul 8 2013, 08:41 AM
I think most of us agree that Zimmerman will not be found guilty of murder. At this point we're merely discussing whether we believe he's actually guilty, not whether he will be found guilty. As for this part:

Quote:
 
and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant.”


Obviously we're not in agreement that Zimmerman did that.
the way I read the article, that clause only applies to the (very odd) case where someone starts a fight and then invokes SYG when they are getting their ass beat and end up shooting the person they started the fight with. If that is the case in the Zimmerman situation (if he started the physical fight) then I think the law is BS and Zimmerman is wrong. Aside from the lack of media attention, I wonder how a case like this would work out had TM beaten GZ to death instead.
Agree. I think it's a dangerous precedent to set, legally, to say that you can start a fight with someone and then shoot them when they hit back. Not that I think there will be a rash of people out there shooting people they start fights with, but it certainly would cause problems in future cases.
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IUCOLTFAN Jul 8 2013, 01:26 PM Post #1065
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Jul 8 2013, 08:41 AM
I think most of us agree that Zimmerman will not be found guilty of murder. At this point we're merely discussing whether we believe he's actually guilty, not whether he will be found guilty. As for this part:

Quote:
 
and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant.”


Obviously we're not in agreement that Zimmerman did that.
How is he guilty if the law finds him not guilty? You may feel he is "guilty" of something from your personal views but that really doesn't mean anything. It's pretty safe to say that those who want more gun restrictions jumped on one side of this case initially. Your issues are more about guns, IMO. A few of us said from the beginning that the state overcharged.....just because you now agree that he probably won't be convicted that doesn't mean you felt that way all along. You've wanted him convicted of something, no?
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