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Texas 20 week abortion bill
Tweet Topic Started: Jul 13 2013, 09:26 AM (327 Views)
brumdog44 Jul 13 2013, 06:04 PM Post #16
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Jul 13 2013, 03:58 PM
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Jul 13 2013, 09:26 AM
I think the 20 week limit is good morally, and a political winner for Repubs. However, not having exceptions for rape and incest, and not easing restrictions on abortion pills is a loser, IMO.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/13/texas-dems-vow-to-fight-abortion-bill-passed-by-republican-led-senate/
Also very, very troubling is that the clinics that meet the 'surgical center' designation drops the number of clinics able to perform them from 42 to 5.
Why is that troubling? This isn't a procedure that should be taken lightly. Shouldn't it be done in a proper facility?
Seems to me to be a very narrow definition of what constitutes a 'surgical facility' if there are only five clinics in Texas that would qualify when there were 42 previously. Five...in Texas? Really? How are the other thirty-seven any less qualified now than they were before enacting the law?
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Mr Gray Jul 13 2013, 06:26 PM Post #17
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Jul 13 2013, 06:04 PM
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Jul 13 2013, 03:58 PM
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Jul 13 2013, 09:26 AM
I think the 20 week limit is good morally, and a political winner for Repubs. However, not having exceptions for rape and incest, and not easing restrictions on abortion pills is a loser, IMO.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/13/texas-dems-vow-to-fight-abortion-bill-passed-by-republican-led-senate/
Also very, very troubling is that the clinics that meet the 'surgical center' designation drops the number of clinics able to perform them from 42 to 5.
Why is that troubling? This isn't a procedure that should be taken lightly. Shouldn't it be done in a proper facility?
Seems to me to be a very narrow definition of what constitutes a 'surgical facility' if there are only five clinics in Texas that would qualify when there were 42 previously. Five...in Texas? Really? How are the other thirty-seven any less qualified now than they were before enacting the law?
That's what happens when laws address situation that the law makers feel aren't appropriate. Were 20 year olds any less qualified to legally drink beer when the laws changed from 18 to 21?
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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brumdog44 Jul 13 2013, 07:34 PM Post #18
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That's what happens when laws address situation that the law makers feel aren't appropriate. Were 20 year olds any less qualified to legally drink beer when the laws changed from 18 to 21?
I call bullshit. A law that eliminates nearly 90% of all clinics that performed abortions isn't like raising the drinking age from 18 to 21....it's tantamount to moving the drinking age from 18 to 68.

If requirements are eliminating 37 of 42 that performed abortions, it isn't about the actually medical safety. It's about limiting options against something you are opposed to.

BTW, according to CDC, only .6% of all abortions in Texas occurred after the 20th week....and that is measured from the gestation week, which is from the women's last menstrual cycle, not the projected date of conception.....so the 20th week number is actually between 16 and 20 weeks. So the actual affect on the 20 week limit is INCREDIBLY minimal in nature. 74% of all abortions in Texas occur during the first 8 weeks.

Nationally, in fact, late term abortions are simply not that large of an issue (only 1.3% of abortions occur after 20 weeks of gestation...92% occur during the first thirteen weeks of gestation)......I would be willing to say that a huge percentage of abortions that are taking place after 16 weeks of gestation are done for reasons of the health of the mother or for lack of viability of the embryo.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6108a1.htm?s_cid=ss6108a1_w
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HoosierLars Jul 13 2013, 07:37 PM Post #19
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That's what happens when laws address situation that the law makers feel aren't appropriate. Were 20 year olds any less qualified to legally drink beer when the laws changed from 18 to 21?
I call bullshit. A law that eliminates nearly 90% of all clinics that performed abortions isn't like raising the drinking age from 18 to 21....it's tantamount to moving the drinking age from 18 to 68.

If requirements are eliminating 37 of 42 that performed abortions, it isn't about the actually medical safety. It's about limiting options against something you are opposed to.

Yep, well put.
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HoosierLars Jul 13 2013, 07:40 PM Post #20
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I think the 20 week limit is good morally, and a political winner for Repubs. However, not having exceptions for rape and incest, and not easing restrictions on abortion pills is a loser, IMO.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/13/texas-dems-vow-to-fight-abortion-bill-passed-by-republican-led-senate/
Wait.....at 22 weeks is a rape fetus less human than a non rape fetus?
Basically the rape/incest exception after 20 weeks would be an extremely rare exception, and so it will effect a very small number of cases. I could see a girl hiding rape/incest due to shame, and if it comes out in week 21 she should have the legal option to abort her baby.
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Mr Gray Jul 13 2013, 08:20 PM Post #21
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Jul 13 2013, 09:26 AM
I think the 20 week limit is good morally, and a political winner for Repubs. However, not having exceptions for rape and incest, and not easing restrictions on abortion pills is a loser, IMO.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/13/texas-dems-vow-to-fight-abortion-bill-passed-by-republican-led-senate/
Wait.....at 22 weeks is a rape fetus less human than a non rape fetus?
Basically the rape/incest exception after 20 weeks would be an extremely rare exception, and so it will effect a very small number of cases. I could see a girl hiding rape/incest due to shame, and if it comes out in week 21 she should have the legal option to abort her baby.
So where would you put the limit on a orations due to rape or incest? 21 weeks, 25, 35, 40?
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray Jul 13 2013, 08:24 PM Post #22
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That's what happens when laws address situation that the law makers feel aren't appropriate. Were 20 year olds any less qualified to legally drink beer when the laws changed from 18 to 21?
I call bullshit. A law that eliminates nearly 90% of all clinics that performed abortions isn't like raising the drinking age from 18 to 21....it's tantamount to moving the drinking age from 18 to 68.

If requirements are eliminating 37 of 42 that performed abortions, it isn't about the actually medical safety. It's about limiting options against something you are opposed to.

BTW, according to CDC, only .6% of all abortions in Texas occurred after the 20th week....and that is measured from the gestation week, which is from the women's last menstrual cycle, not the projected date of conception.....so the 20th week number is actually between 16 and 20 weeks. So the actual affect on the 20 week limit is INCREDIBLY minimal in nature. 74% of all abortions in Texas occur during the first 8 weeks.

Nationally, in fact, late term abortions are simply not that large of an issue (only 1.3% of abortions occur after 20 weeks of gestation...92% occur during the first thirteen weeks of gestation)......I would be willing to say that a huge percentage of abortions that are taking place after 16 weeks of gestation are done for reasons of the health of the mother or for lack of viability of the embryo.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6108a1.htm?s_cid=ss6108a1_w
You can call bullshit all you want without any first hand experience. I have witnessed many "legal" abortion clinics that should never be allowed to operate. They simply don't have the proper safety equipment. I can't speak for these Texas locations, but I'm guessing many of them are similar to what I've seen and its atrocious.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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brumdog44 Jul 13 2013, 09:33 PM Post #23
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Jul 13 2013, 06:26 PM
That's what happens when laws address situation that the law makers feel aren't appropriate. Were 20 year olds any less qualified to legally drink beer when the laws changed from 18 to 21?
I call bullshit. A law that eliminates nearly 90% of all clinics that performed abortions isn't like raising the drinking age from 18 to 21....it's tantamount to moving the drinking age from 18 to 68.

If requirements are eliminating 37 of 42 that performed abortions, it isn't about the actually medical safety. It's about limiting options against something you are opposed to.

BTW, according to CDC, only .6% of all abortions in Texas occurred after the 20th week....and that is measured from the gestation week, which is from the women's last menstrual cycle, not the projected date of conception.....so the 20th week number is actually between 16 and 20 weeks. So the actual affect on the 20 week limit is INCREDIBLY minimal in nature. 74% of all abortions in Texas occur during the first 8 weeks.

Nationally, in fact, late term abortions are simply not that large of an issue (only 1.3% of abortions occur after 20 weeks of gestation...92% occur during the first thirteen weeks of gestation)......I would be willing to say that a huge percentage of abortions that are taking place after 16 weeks of gestation are done for reasons of the health of the mother or for lack of viability of the embryo.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6108a1.htm?s_cid=ss6108a1_w
You can call bullshit all you want without any first hand experience. I have witnessed many "legal" abortion clinics that should never be allowed to operate. They simply don't have the proper safety equipment. I can't speak for these Texas locations, but I'm guessing many of them are similar to what I've seen and its atrocious.
Site me the numbers showing how unhealthy these clinics are in performing abortions. That's the bottom line. Unless you can back it up statistically, then it's nothing more than people trying to limit an option that is legal because they don't approve of it. And as you always say...if the clinics aren't safe, no one is forcing them to go there.

During 1988-1997, the national rate of legal abortion related deaths was .7 per 100,000. (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6108a1.htm?s_cid=ss6108a1_w). That's a very low rate for a surgery.....and that was ten years ago. And those numbers were greatly influenced by the abortion deaths that occurred post 20 weeks (which had a risk factor 5 times higher for the mother during the first 8 weeks and almost triple the rate of those during 16-20 weeks).

Today, the most recent rate of induced abortion causing the death of the mother is .6 per 100,000. If you want to say that is high, then compare that to the 8.8 per 100,000 deaths in live births.....yet I don't hear you advocating for greater limitations on the facilities that perform childbirth. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22270271)

The bottom line is the so called shutting down of clinics because of high death rates is just pro-life myth.
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Mr Gray Jul 13 2013, 11:19 PM Post #24
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Jul 13 2013, 09:33 PM
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Jul 13 2013, 08:24 PM
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Jul 13 2013, 07:34 PM
Mr Gray
Jul 13 2013, 06:26 PM
That's what happens when laws address situation that the law makers feel aren't appropriate. Were 20 year olds any less qualified to legally drink beer when the laws changed from 18 to 21?
I call bullshit. A law that eliminates nearly 90% of all clinics that performed abortions isn't like raising the drinking age from 18 to 21....it's tantamount to moving the drinking age from 18 to 68.

If requirements are eliminating 37 of 42 that performed abortions, it isn't about the actually medical safety. It's about limiting options against something you are opposed to.

BTW, according to CDC, only .6% of all abortions in Texas occurred after the 20th week....and that is measured from the gestation week, which is from the women's last menstrual cycle, not the projected date of conception.....so the 20th week number is actually between 16 and 20 weeks. So the actual affect on the 20 week limit is INCREDIBLY minimal in nature. 74% of all abortions in Texas occur during the first 8 weeks.

Nationally, in fact, late term abortions are simply not that large of an issue (only 1.3% of abortions occur after 20 weeks of gestation...92% occur during the first thirteen weeks of gestation)......I would be willing to say that a huge percentage of abortions that are taking place after 16 weeks of gestation are done for reasons of the health of the mother or for lack of viability of the embryo.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6108a1.htm?s_cid=ss6108a1_w
You can call bullshit all you want without any first hand experience. I have witnessed many "legal" abortion clinics that should never be allowed to operate. They simply don't have the proper safety equipment. I can't speak for these Texas locations, but I'm guessing many of them are similar to what I've seen and its atrocious.
Site me the numbers showing how unhealthy these clinics are in performing abortions. That's the bottom line. Unless you can back it up statistically, then it's nothing more than people trying to limit an option that is legal because they don't approve of it. And as you always say...if the clinics aren't safe, no one is forcing them to go there.

During 1988-1997, the national rate of legal abortion related deaths was .7 per 100,000. (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6108a1.htm?s_cid=ss6108a1_w). That's a very low rate for a surgery.....and that was ten years ago. And those numbers were greatly influenced by the abortion deaths that occurred post 20 weeks (which had a risk factor 5 times higher for the mother during the first 8 weeks and almost triple the rate of those during 16-20 weeks).

Today, the most recent rate of induced abortion causing the death of the mother is .6 per 100,000. If you want to say that is high, then compare that to the 8.8 per 100,000 deaths in live births.....yet I don't hear you advocating for greater limitations on the facilities that perform childbirth. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22270271)

The bottom line is the so called shutting down of clinics because of high death rates is just pro-life myth.
Where did I say anything about high death rates? I don't have stats for what I've seen brum. You do realize that there is more to life than stats. Experiences are real a d do count.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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brumdog44 Jul 13 2013, 11:55 PM Post #25
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40 years of experience shows that 347 women have died from abortion 40 years... That's less than 9 per year nationally. And the source that is coming from is a pro-life source.

http://www.measuringworth.com/DJIA_SP_NASDAQ/result.php

If we are talking about nine deaths nationally per year, probably an average of one per year is coming from a Texas abortion clinic....from 42 clinics. Compare that to deaths in other surgical procedures....ones you aren't crying foul about.

When my personal experience is in conflict with what actually has been occurring, I tend to think that either a personal bias is coming into play or my experience doesn't reflect the total reality.
Edited by brumdog44, Jul 14 2013, 12:13 AM.
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HoosierLars Jul 14 2013, 01:12 AM Post #26
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Jul 13 2013, 08:24 PM
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Jul 13 2013, 07:34 PM
Mr Gray
Jul 13 2013, 06:26 PM
That's what happens when laws address situation that the law makers feel aren't appropriate. Were 20 year olds any less qualified to legally drink beer when the laws changed from 18 to 21?
I call bullshit. A law that eliminates nearly 90% of all clinics that performed abortions isn't like raising the drinking age from 18 to 21....it's tantamount to moving the drinking age from 18 to 68.

If requirements are eliminating 37 of 42 that performed abortions, it isn't about the actually medical safety. It's about limiting options against something you are opposed to.

BTW, according to CDC, only .6% of all abortions in Texas occurred after the 20th week....and that is measured from the gestation week, which is from the women's last menstrual cycle, not the projected date of conception.....so the 20th week number is actually between 16 and 20 weeks. So the actual affect on the 20 week limit is INCREDIBLY minimal in nature. 74% of all abortions in Texas occur during the first 8 weeks.

Nationally, in fact, late term abortions are simply not that large of an issue (only 1.3% of abortions occur after 20 weeks of gestation...92% occur during the first thirteen weeks of gestation)......I would be willing to say that a huge percentage of abortions that are taking place after 16 weeks of gestation are done for reasons of the health of the mother or for lack of viability of the embryo.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6108a1.htm?s_cid=ss6108a1_w
You can call bullshit all you want without any first hand experience. I have witnessed many "legal" abortion clinics that should never be allowed to operate. They simply don't have the proper safety equipment. I can't speak for these Texas locations, but I'm guessing many of them are similar to what I've seen and its atrocious.
Site me the numbers showing how unhealthy these clinics are in performing abortions. That's the bottom line. Unless you can back it up statistically, then it's nothing more than people trying to limit an option that is legal because they don't approve of it. And as you always say...if the clinics aren't safe, no one is forcing them to go there.

During 1988-1997, the national rate of legal abortion related deaths was .7 per 100,000. (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6108a1.htm?s_cid=ss6108a1_w). That's a very low rate for a surgery.....and that was ten years ago. And those numbers were greatly influenced by the abortion deaths that occurred post 20 weeks (which had a risk factor 5 times higher for the mother during the first 8 weeks and almost triple the rate of those during 16-20 weeks).

Today, the most recent rate of induced abortion causing the death of the mother is .6 per 100,000. If you want to say that is high, then compare that to the 8.8 per 100,000 deaths in live births.....yet I don't hear you advocating for greater limitations on the facilities that perform childbirth. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22270271)

The bottom line is the so called shutting down of clinics because of high death rates is just pro-life myth.
Where did I say anything about high death rates? I don't have stats for what I've seen brum. You do realize that there is more to life than stats. Experiences are real a d do count.
Since you are normally pro-freedom, couldn't the women be making this decision about safety, not the government?
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HoosierLars Jul 14 2013, 01:13 AM Post #27
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I think the 20 week limit is good morally, and a political winner for Repubs. However, not having exceptions for rape and incest, and not easing restrictions on abortion pills is a loser, IMO.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/13/texas-dems-vow-to-fight-abortion-bill-passed-by-republican-led-senate/
Wait.....at 22 weeks is a rape fetus less human than a non rape fetus?
Basically the rape/incest exception after 20 weeks would be an extremely rare exception, and so it will effect a very small number of cases. I could see a girl hiding rape/incest due to shame, and if it comes out in week 21 she should have the legal option to abort her baby.
So where would you put the limit on a orations due to rape or incest? 21 weeks, 25, 35, 40?
Personally, I would set the abortion limit to 8-10 weeks, and I think that 20 weeks is a reasonable limit for rape or incest.
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Mr Gray Jul 14 2013, 07:02 AM Post #28
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Jul 13 2013, 06:26 PM
That's what happens when laws address situation that the law makers feel aren't appropriate. Were 20 year olds any less qualified to legally drink beer when the laws changed from 18 to 21?
I call bullshit. A law that eliminates nearly 90% of all clinics that performed abortions isn't like raising the drinking age from 18 to 21....it's tantamount to moving the drinking age from 18 to 68.

If requirements are eliminating 37 of 42 that performed abortions, it isn't about the actually medical safety. It's about limiting options against something you are opposed to.

BTW, according to CDC, only .6% of all abortions in Texas occurred after the 20th week....and that is measured from the gestation week, which is from the women's last menstrual cycle, not the projected date of conception.....so the 20th week number is actually between 16 and 20 weeks. So the actual affect on the 20 week limit is INCREDIBLY minimal in nature. 74% of all abortions in Texas occur during the first 8 weeks.

Nationally, in fact, late term abortions are simply not that large of an issue (only 1.3% of abortions occur after 20 weeks of gestation...92% occur during the first thirteen weeks of gestation)......I would be willing to say that a huge percentage of abortions that are taking place after 16 weeks of gestation are done for reasons of the health of the mother or for lack of viability of the embryo.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6108a1.htm?s_cid=ss6108a1_w
You can call bullshit all you want without any first hand experience. I have witnessed many "legal" abortion clinics that should never be allowed to operate. They simply don't have the proper safety equipment. I can't speak for these Texas locations, but I'm guessing many of them are similar to what I've seen and its atrocious.
Site me the numbers showing how unhealthy these clinics are in performing abortions. That's the bottom line. Unless you can back it up statistically, then it's nothing more than people trying to limit an option that is legal because they don't approve of it. And as you always say...if the clinics aren't safe, no one is forcing them to go there.

During 1988-1997, the national rate of legal abortion related deaths was .7 per 100,000. (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6108a1.htm?s_cid=ss6108a1_w). That's a very low rate for a surgery.....and that was ten years ago. And those numbers were greatly influenced by the abortion deaths that occurred post 20 weeks (which had a risk factor 5 times higher for the mother during the first 8 weeks and almost triple the rate of those during 16-20 weeks).

Today, the most recent rate of induced abortion causing the death of the mother is .6 per 100,000. If you want to say that is high, then compare that to the 8.8 per 100,000 deaths in live births.....yet I don't hear you advocating for greater limitations on the facilities that perform childbirth. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22270271)

The bottom line is the so called shutting down of clinics because of high death rates is just pro-life myth.
Where did I say anything about high death rates? I don't have stats for what I've seen brum. You do realize that there is more to life than stats. Experiences are real a d do count.
Since you are normally pro-freedom, couldn't the women be making this decision about safety, not the government?
Yes, if we were consistent in that. Unfortunately we aren't.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray Jul 14 2013, 07:03 AM Post #29
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Jul 13 2013, 09:26 AM
I think the 20 week limit is good morally, and a political winner for Repubs. However, not having exceptions for rape and incest, and not easing restrictions on abortion pills is a loser, IMO.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/13/texas-dems-vow-to-fight-abortion-bill-passed-by-republican-led-senate/
Wait.....at 22 weeks is a rape fetus less human than a non rape fetus?
Basically the rape/incest exception after 20 weeks would be an extremely rare exception, and so it will effect a very small number of cases. I could see a girl hiding rape/incest due to shame, and if it comes out in week 21 she should have the legal option to abort her baby.
So where would you put the limit on a orations due to rape or incest? 21 weeks, 25, 35, 40?
Personally, I would set the abortion limit to 8-10 weeks, and I think that 20 weeks is a reasonable limit for rape or incest.
Read your previous post. What did you say abou 21 weeks again?
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray Jul 14 2013, 07:13 AM Post #30
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brumdog44
Jul 13 2013, 11:55 PM
40 years of experience shows that 347 women have died from abortion 40 years... That's less than 9 per year nationally. And the source that is coming from is a pro-life source.

http://www.measuringworth.com/DJIA_SP_NASDAQ/result.php

If we are talking about nine deaths nationally per year, probably an average of one per year is coming from a Texas abortion clinic....from 42 clinics. Compare that to deaths in other surgical procedures....ones you aren't crying foul about.

When my personal experience is in conflict with what actually has been occurring, I tend to think that either a personal bias is coming into play or my experience doesn't reflect the total reality.
A death doesn't have to occur for a facility to be considered insufficient or dangerous.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=9059172

No deaths there.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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