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Texas 20 week abortion bill
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Topic Started: Jul 13 2013, 09:26 AM (325 Views)
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HoosierLars
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Jul 14 2013, 09:47 PM
Post #46
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So where would you put the limit on a orations due to rape or incest? 21 weeks, 25, 35, 40?
Personally, I would set the abortion limit to 8-10 weeks, and I think that 20 weeks is a reasonable limit for rape or incest.
Read your previous post. What did you say abou 21 weeks again?
My initial post was more of a reaction to how the Repubs lost two Senate seats due to candidates making statements against the rape/incest exception. I hate seeing them make unforced political errors like that. There are times when I moderate my own personal views to reach a consensus with those I disagree with, and to win elections.
Here is what you said, and it wasn't from your initial post. - Quote:
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I could see a girl hiding rape/incest due to shame, and if it comes out in week 21 she should have the legal option to abort her baby.
That statement wasnt about politics or compromise. So are you retracting it?
I have a really difficult time with this one. The woman/girl should know if she wants to abort a rape/incest baby before 20 weeks, but what if extenuating circumstances push the decision to 21 weeks. Would I allow that? I don't know... Politically, I would like to allow it to take the "Repubs are against abortion even in the case of rape/incest" argument off the table.
What about 25 or 30 weeks?
We're talking about such a small number of cases that it's not worth spending any more effort debating it here. I'm more concerned with the big picture, e.g. winning back the Presidency and Congress from the left.
Interesting considering you were the only one who made that comment about rApe and incest. Nice job walking back. Like I've repeated, this is a difficult issue for me. If I adopted your view that sperm and eggs are worthless, but the instant they join they are a human being that deserves the full protection of the state, then it would be much easier for me.
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Mr Gray
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Jul 15 2013, 08:19 AM
Post #47
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Personally, I would set the abortion limit to 8-10 weeks, and I think that 20 weeks is a reasonable limit for rape or incest.
Read your previous post. What did you say abou 21 weeks again?
My initial post was more of a reaction to how the Repubs lost two Senate seats due to candidates making statements against the rape/incest exception. I hate seeing them make unforced political errors like that. There are times when I moderate my own personal views to reach a consensus with those I disagree with, and to win elections.
Here is what you said, and it wasn't from your initial post. - Quote:
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I could see a girl hiding rape/incest due to shame, and if it comes out in week 21 she should have the legal option to abort her baby.
That statement wasnt about politics or compromise. So are you retracting it?
I have a really difficult time with this one. The woman/girl should know if she wants to abort a rape/incest baby before 20 weeks, but what if extenuating circumstances push the decision to 21 weeks. Would I allow that? I don't know... Politically, I would like to allow it to take the "Repubs are against abortion even in the case of rape/incest" argument off the table.
What about 25 or 30 weeks?
We're talking about such a small number of cases that it's not worth spending any more effort debating it here. I'm more concerned with the big picture, e.g. winning back the Presidency and Congress from the left.
Interesting considering you were the only one who made that comment about rApe and incest. Nice job walking back.
Like I've repeated, this is a difficult issue for me. If I adopted your view that sperm and eggs are worthless, but the instant they join they are a human being that deserves the full protection of the state, then it would be much easier for me. if it is a difficult issue for you, then why did you make the statement:
"I could see a girl hiding rape/incest due to shame, and if it comes out in week 21 she should have the legal option to abort her baby." It sounds as if you made decision, but are now back tracking because you can't justify your own statement. And is it really that difficult Lars....here is what a baby looks like at 21 weeks. Do you really need help figuring out if this is a human being worthy of protection or not? Posted Image
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 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon
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Jul 15 2013, 08:20 AM
Post #48
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- HoosierLars
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Personally, I would set the abortion limit to 8-10 weeks, and I think that 20 weeks is a reasonable limit for rape or incest.
Read your previous post. What did you say abou 21 weeks again?
My initial post was more of a reaction to how the Repubs lost two Senate seats due to candidates making statements against the rape/incest exception. I hate seeing them make unforced political errors like that. There are times when I moderate my own personal views to reach a consensus with those I disagree with, and to win elections.
Here is what you said, and it wasn't from your initial post. - Quote:
-
I could see a girl hiding rape/incest due to shame, and if it comes out in week 21 she should have the legal option to abort her baby.
That statement wasnt about politics or compromise. So are you retracting it?
I have a really difficult time with this one. The woman/girl should know if she wants to abort a rape/incest baby before 20 weeks, but what if extenuating circumstances push the decision to 21 weeks. Would I allow that? I don't know... Politically, I would like to allow it to take the "Repubs are against abortion even in the case of rape/incest" argument off the table.
What about 25 or 30 weeks?
We're talking about such a small number of cases that it's not worth spending any more effort debating it here. I'm more concerned with the big picture, e.g. winning back the Presidency and Congress from the left.
Interesting considering you were the only one who made that comment about rApe and incest. Nice job walking back.
Like I've repeated, this is a difficult issue for me. If I adopted your view that sperm and eggs are worthless, but the instant they join they are a human being that deserves the full protection of the state, then it would be much easier for me. And as I mentioned once in a previous thread, there is no "instant" when life is initiated....even when the sperm joins with the egg. At that point the sperm still has to unpack it's DNA and join it with the egg. In the future, maybe there is a birth control method that destroys unpackaged DNA. So you'll have sperm joining with egg, but nut no single cell containing both sets of chromosomes. For pro-lifers, is that life? (guys you don't have to answer that, it was rhetorical). My only point being that there can be an infinitely smaller number of steps that can be prevented before true life emerges. I don't think there is an instant moment when life suddenly forms.
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dreachon
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Jul 15 2013, 08:25 AM
Post #49
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Not really a fair picture or question, IMO. The baby at 21 weeks weighs 3/4 pound. It's 10 inches long. The picture you are showing gives no size reference.
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Mr Gray
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Jul 15 2013, 08:40 AM
Post #50
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Not really a fair picture or question, IMO. The baby at 21 weeks weighs 3/4 pound. It's 10 inches long. The picture you are showing gives no size reference. oh...smaller = less human. Got it. That picture is extremely accurate as to what a 21 week old fetus looks like...which by the way dreach a 21 week old fetus has survived outside the womb.
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 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray
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Jul 15 2013, 08:43 AM
Post #51
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- HoosierLars
- Jul 14 2013, 01:12 AM
Since you are normally pro-freedom, couldn't the women be making this decision about safety, not the government?
Yes, if we were consistent in that. Unfortunately we aren't.
So you are pro-freedom unless the tyranny helps promote your personal views?
No. If we are going to regulate the safety and sanitation of medical procedure facilities, then we need to be fair across the board. Abortion clinics should not get a pass because of the politics of the issue itself.
Except your theory tragically fails because abortions are by and large NOT causing health issues even when treated in abortion clinics. This has everything to do with your personal view on abortion as well those of the Texas legislature. Compare the death rates of cosmetic surgery....cosmetic surgery death rates a re MUCH higher. Yet in Texas, the requirements for performing cosmetic surgeries are a joke. http://www.measuringworth.com/DJIA_SP_NASDAQ/result.php of course my personal views impact my outlook on the surgical center law, however not exclusively. Like I said before, I have witnesses pretty horrible conditions, and there are a lot of injuries that take place because of them that go unreported....and google won't pick that up for you brum. I'm not going to argue with you about this, because your history hear shows that you worship the god of statistics. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, but it makes it impossible to discuss certain issues with you where stats are deceptive or don't tell the entire story. this is one of those.
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 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray
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Jul 15 2013, 08:44 AM
Post #52
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Read your previous post. What did you say abou 21 weeks again?
My initial post was more of a reaction to how the Repubs lost two Senate seats due to candidates making statements against the rape/incest exception. I hate seeing them make unforced political errors like that. There are times when I moderate my own personal views to reach a consensus with those I disagree with, and to win elections.
Here is what you said, and it wasn't from your initial post. - Quote:
-
I could see a girl hiding rape/incest due to shame, and if it comes out in week 21 she should have the legal option to abort her baby.
That statement wasnt about politics or compromise. So are you retracting it?
I have a really difficult time with this one. The woman/girl should know if she wants to abort a rape/incest baby before 20 weeks, but what if extenuating circumstances push the decision to 21 weeks. Would I allow that? I don't know... Politically, I would like to allow it to take the "Repubs are against abortion even in the case of rape/incest" argument off the table.
What about 25 or 30 weeks?
We're talking about such a small number of cases that it's not worth spending any more effort debating it here. I'm more concerned with the big picture, e.g. winning back the Presidency and Congress from the left.
Interesting considering you were the only one who made that comment about rApe and incest. Nice job walking back.
Like I've repeated, this is a difficult issue for me. If I adopted your view that sperm and eggs are worthless, but the instant they join they are a human being that deserves the full protection of the state, then it would be much easier for me.
And as I mentioned once in a previous thread, there is no "instant" when life is initiated....even when the sperm joins with the egg. At that point the sperm still has to unpack it's DNA and join it with the egg. In the future, maybe there is a birth control method that destroys unpackaged DNA. So you'll have sperm joining with egg, but nut no single cell containing both sets of chromosomes. For pro-lifers, is that life? (guys you don't have to answer that, it was rhetorical). My only point being that there can be an infinitely smaller number of steps that can be prevented before true life emerges. I don't think there is an instant moment when life suddenly forms. at 20 weeks (well before actually) the fetus is moving around, having dreams, and responding to all sorts of stimuli.....if that isn't considered "alive", then your just being stubborn.
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 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon
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Jul 15 2013, 08:49 AM
Post #53
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Not really a fair picture or question, IMO. The baby at 21 weeks weighs 3/4 pound. It's 10 inches long. The picture you are showing gives no size reference.
oh...smaller = less human. Got it. That picture is extremely accurate as to what a 21 week old fetus looks like...which by the way dreach a 21 week old fetus has survived outside the womb. I didn't say that at all and I didn't say the picture is not accurate. Just that without any reference point it can misrepresentative.
The earliest surviving baby I found was 21 weeks, 5 days. I have always stated my opinion on here is that somewhere around 20 weeks is a pretty good number because no baby has survived at 20 weeks. You made the point that as medical technology gets better, what if a baby one day survives at 18 weeks? 10 weeks? What happens to my opinion then? And honestly I'm just not sure. I'll have to cross that bridge when/if we come to it.
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dreachon
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Jul 15 2013, 08:50 AM
Post #54
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My initial post was more of a reaction to how the Repubs lost two Senate seats due to candidates making statements against the rape/incest exception. I hate seeing them make unforced political errors like that. There are times when I moderate my own personal views to reach a consensus with those I disagree with, and to win elections.
Here is what you said, and it wasn't from your initial post. - Quote:
-
I could see a girl hiding rape/incest due to shame, and if it comes out in week 21 she should have the legal option to abort her baby.
That statement wasnt about politics or compromise. So are you retracting it?
I have a really difficult time with this one. The woman/girl should know if she wants to abort a rape/incest baby before 20 weeks, but what if extenuating circumstances push the decision to 21 weeks. Would I allow that? I don't know... Politically, I would like to allow it to take the "Repubs are against abortion even in the case of rape/incest" argument off the table.
What about 25 or 30 weeks?
We're talking about such a small number of cases that it's not worth spending any more effort debating it here. I'm more concerned with the big picture, e.g. winning back the Presidency and Congress from the left.
Interesting considering you were the only one who made that comment about rApe and incest. Nice job walking back.
Like I've repeated, this is a difficult issue for me. If I adopted your view that sperm and eggs are worthless, but the instant they join they are a human being that deserves the full protection of the state, then it would be much easier for me.
And as I mentioned once in a previous thread, there is no "instant" when life is initiated....even when the sperm joins with the egg. At that point the sperm still has to unpack it's DNA and join it with the egg. In the future, maybe there is a birth control method that destroys unpackaged DNA. So you'll have sperm joining with egg, but nut no single cell containing both sets of chromosomes. For pro-lifers, is that life? (guys you don't have to answer that, it was rhetorical). My only point being that there can be an infinitely smaller number of steps that can be prevented before true life emerges. I don't think there is an instant moment when life suddenly forms.
at 20 weeks (well before actually) the fetus is moving around, having dreams, and responding to all sorts of stimuli.....if that isn't considered "alive", then your just being stubborn. I was speaking specifically to those who think life is initiated when the sperm and egg join together. Not sure what 20 weeks has anything to do with it.
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HoosierLars
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Jul 15 2013, 09:14 AM
Post #55
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if it is a difficult issue for you, then why did you make the statement:
"I could see a girl hiding rape/incest due to shame, and if it comes out in week 21 she should have the legal option to abort her baby." It sounds as if you made decision, but are now back tracking because you can't justify your own statement.
Losing more Senate seats due to the perception that "repubs are against all abortions, even in the case of rape or incest" is not a good option, IMO. Elections and politics are the way to change public policy in a meaningful way.
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HoosierLars
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Jul 15 2013, 09:16 AM
Post #56
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I was speaking specifically to those who think life is initiated when the sperm and egg join together. Not sure what 20 weeks has anything to do with it. It appears that Aaron isn't making a reasonable attempt to read our posts. Life begins at conception--period. And sperm and eggs are worthless biological matter.
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Mr Gray
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Jul 15 2013, 09:17 AM
Post #57
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Coach
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if it is a difficult issue for you, then why did you make the statement:
"I could see a girl hiding rape/incest due to shame, and if it comes out in week 21 she should have the legal option to abort her baby." It sounds as if you made decision, but are now back tracking because you can't justify your own statement.
Losing more Senate seats due to the perception that "repubs are against all abortions, even in the case of rape or incest" is not a good option, IMO. Elections and politics are the way to change public policy in a meaningful way. your original statement, which I keep quoting, wasn't political Lars...it was about rape or incest victims and their abortion timing. Come on man.....own it
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 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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HoosierLars
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Jul 15 2013, 09:22 AM
Post #58
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if it is a difficult issue for you, then why did you make the statement:
"I could see a girl hiding rape/incest due to shame, and if it comes out in week 21 she should have the legal option to abort her baby." It sounds as if you made decision, but are now back tracking because you can't justify your own statement.
Losing more Senate seats due to the perception that "repubs are against all abortions, even in the case of rape or incest" is not a good option, IMO. Elections and politics are the way to change public policy in a meaningful way.
your original statement, which I keep quoting, wasn't political Lars...it was about rape or incest victims and their abortion timing. Come on man.....own it Ok, I "own it." Now what was your point?
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Mr Gray
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Jul 15 2013, 09:43 AM
Post #59
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if it is a difficult issue for you, then why did you make the statement:
"I could see a girl hiding rape/incest due to shame, and if it comes out in week 21 she should have the legal option to abort her baby." It sounds as if you made decision, but are now back tracking because you can't justify your own statement.
Losing more Senate seats due to the perception that "repubs are against all abortions, even in the case of rape or incest" is not a good option, IMO. Elections and politics are the way to change public policy in a meaningful way.
your original statement, which I keep quoting, wasn't political Lars...it was about rape or incest victims and their abortion timing. Come on man.....own it
Ok, I "own it." Now what was your point? my point was that you feel that an exception should be made past 20 weeks for rape & incest, but you can't seem to explain what kind of exception, then you tried to walk your comments back.
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 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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eelbor
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Jul 15 2013, 10:21 AM
Post #60
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Zen Master
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if it is a difficult issue for you, then why did you make the statement:
"I could see a girl hiding rape/incest due to shame, and if it comes out in week 21 she should have the legal option to abort her baby." It sounds as if you made decision, but are now back tracking because you can't justify your own statement.
Losing more Senate seats due to the perception that "repubs are against all abortions, even in the case of rape or incest" is not a good option, IMO. Elections and politics are the way to change public policy in a meaningful way.
your original statement, which I keep quoting, wasn't political Lars...it was about rape or incest victims and their abortion timing. Come on man.....own it
Ok, I "own it." Now what was your point?
my point was that you feel that an exception should be made past 20 weeks for rape & incest, but you can't seem to explain what kind of exception, then you tried to walk your comments back. I was reading somewhere the 1 out of 475 women do not know they are pregnant at 20 weeks. Since you are against abortion at any point would you be OK with a pregnant girl who is denied abortion after the twenty week mark inducing labor early and giving up the baby as a ward of the state(and to taxpayer expense)?
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"Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed
Meat is Murder. Sweet, delicious murder.
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