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Minimum Wage; ..for your consumption
Tweet Topic Started: Jul 16 2013, 01:14 PM (1,721 Views)
Bobobinc Jul 20 2013, 01:48 AM Post #106
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Mr Gray
Jul 19 2013, 11:02 PM
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Jul 19 2013, 10:31 PM
There are reasons why the minimum wage was established. Same could be said for why labor unions started.....child labor laws.....on and on. History doesn't lie.

A totally, unobstructed free market with zero government intervention will result in some very rich people..........and a ton of very poor people......with many in between. Why don't some of you guys just say you're OK with tens of millions of Americans living in utter poverty? Just say it.

I totally understand where you're coming from with hard work, delayed gratification, self improvement......I get it and agree in theory. But there are SO many variables and factors that it doesn't always work in the real world.

A free market economy working within a republic is the best system known to man. Doesn't mean everybody can thrive in the system........for a myriad of reasons. It is over the top idealism to believe that every American will work hard, improve himself, get promoted or go to night school........on and on. Isn't going to happen. So just say it's alright with you if those people......including children who aren't at fault......try to exist with almost nothing.

Wanting someone to live in poverty and wanting someone to be forced by law to provide a living for someone else aren't the same thing Bob.
If you understood me to say that you want people to live in poverty I did a poor job of explaining my point. I don't believe you or anybody else does. Otherwise I don't get your point.

You don't want to be forced to provide for the poor and you don't want anyone to live in poverty. Pretty convenient. Your solution seems to be just get the government out of it and let the free market take care of it. When has that worked before?
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Mr Gray Jul 20 2013, 07:46 AM Post #107
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Jul 20 2013, 01:48 AM
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Jul 19 2013, 11:02 PM
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Jul 19 2013, 10:31 PM
There are reasons why the minimum wage was established. Same could be said for why labor unions started.....child labor laws.....on and on. History doesn't lie.

A totally, unobstructed free market with zero government intervention will result in some very rich people..........and a ton of very poor people......with many in between. Why don't some of you guys just say you're OK with tens of millions of Americans living in utter poverty? Just say it.

I totally understand where you're coming from with hard work, delayed gratification, self improvement......I get it and agree in theory. But there are SO many variables and factors that it doesn't always work in the real world.

A free market economy working within a republic is the best system known to man. Doesn't mean everybody can thrive in the system........for a myriad of reasons. It is over the top idealism to believe that every American will work hard, improve himself, get promoted or go to night school........on and on. Isn't going to happen. So just say it's alright with you if those people......including children who aren't at fault......try to exist with almost nothing.

Wanting someone to live in poverty and wanting someone to be forced by law to provide a living for someone else aren't the same thing Bob.
If you understood me to say that you want people to live in poverty I did a poor job of explaining my point. I don't believe you or anybody else does. Otherwise I don't get your point.

You don't want to be forced to provide for the poor and you don't want anyone to live in poverty. Pretty convenient. Your solution seems to be just get the government out of it and let the free market take care of it. When has that worked before?
Well then what did you mean when you said:
Quote:
 
Why don't some of you guys just say you're OK with tens of millions of Americans living in utter poverty? Just say it.


I didnt say that I didn't want to help people get out of poverty, I said I didn't want the government to force people to do so by law. My primary reason is that it defies the concept of freedom and liberty. Even if it was better for society, I would still be against it for the same reason.

That being said, I believe a person can survive on minimum wage, I believe it should be a shitty life which will encourage them to better themselves, and I believe forcing someone to pay a higher price for something than it is worth simply sends them shopping elsewhere, which in the case of labor means outsourced jobs.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray Jul 20 2013, 07:49 AM Post #108
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Jul 20 2013, 12:07 AM
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I will address the chart when I have time, however I need to point out that I actually don't care about the chart.
Therein lies your problem. You accuse others of having their mind closed to the subject and then flat out say you don't even care about the point that presented to begin with.

BTW, nothing is keeping churches and local community groups from helping people in poverty now, are they? Yet, strangely.....they exist in tens of millions.
My problem? It's not being close minded brum. It's simply that fighting over whether or not minimum wage is survivable is irrelevant to my overall theory that wages should be based upon their worth only. It would be like me asking you to explain whether God is black, white, male, or female, when you don't even think he exists.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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HoosierLars Jul 20 2013, 10:26 AM Post #109
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Bobobinc
Jul 20 2013, 01:48 AM
Mr Gray
Jul 19 2013, 11:02 PM
Bobobinc
Jul 19 2013, 10:31 PM
There are reasons why the minimum wage was established. Same could be said for why labor unions started.....child labor laws.....on and on. History doesn't lie.

A totally, unobstructed free market with zero government intervention will result in some very rich people..........and a ton of very poor people......with many in between. Why don't some of you guys just say you're OK with tens of millions of Americans living in utter poverty? Just say it.

I totally understand where you're coming from with hard work, delayed gratification, self improvement......I get it and agree in theory. But there are SO many variables and factors that it doesn't always work in the real world.

A free market economy working within a republic is the best system known to man. Doesn't mean everybody can thrive in the system........for a myriad of reasons. It is over the top idealism to believe that every American will work hard, improve himself, get promoted or go to night school........on and on. Isn't going to happen. So just say it's alright with you if those people......including children who aren't at fault......try to exist with almost nothing.

Wanting someone to live in poverty and wanting someone to be forced by law to provide a living for someone else aren't the same thing Bob.
If you understood me to say that you want people to live in poverty I did a poor job of explaining my point. I don't believe you or anybody else does. Otherwise I don't get your point.

You don't want to be forced to provide for the poor and you don't want anyone to live in poverty. Pretty convenient. Your solution seems to be just get the government out of it and let the free market take care of it. When has that worked before?
Bobob, when you see someone begging at an intersection, do you freely give them a Lincoln or Hamilton? Sadly, many studies have found a high correlation between beggars and drug/alcohol abuse. My wife found a good solution, and bought some helpful packets that contain bus tickets, food vouchers, etc. Giving these helps the truly needy, and is a wasted $5 otherwise.

In your opinion, when has bigger government and more socialism ever helped? (in the longer run) Sure, Norway (5M) and Sweden (10M) have done ok with a more socialistic society, but they also enforce their border security and are more homogeneous societies. The US currently has more illegal immigrants than that. It's very expensive to keep bringing in millions of new residents while providing the level of lifestyle you think they deserve. There's a reason so many people what to move here. They aren't deterred by our "low" minimum wage.
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brumdog44 Jul 20 2013, 10:54 AM Post #110
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Mr Gray
Jul 20 2013, 07:49 AM
brumdog44
Jul 20 2013, 12:07 AM
Mr Gray
Jul 19 2013, 09:34 PM
I will address the chart when I have time, however I need to point out that I actually don't care about the chart.
Therein lies your problem. You accuse others of having their mind closed to the subject and then flat out say you don't even care about the point that presented to begin with.

BTW, nothing is keeping churches and local community groups from helping people in poverty now, are they? Yet, strangely.....they exist in tens of millions.
My problem? It's not being close minded brum. It's simply that fighting over whether or not minimum wage is survivable is irrelevant to my overall theory that wages should be based upon their worth only. It would be like me asking you to explain whether God is black, white, male, or female, when you don't even think he exists.
So you believe that minimum wage is survivable but don't care about addressing the very first post in thread that addresses the survivability of being on minimum wage?
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eelbor Jul 20 2013, 11:07 AM Post #111
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My question to the group, did anyone on here believe you could survive on a 40 hour a week job at McDonald's? I never did. I grew past those jobs many years ago while I still had a parental safety net.
Edited by eelbor, Jul 20 2013, 11:08 AM.
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dreachon Jul 20 2013, 11:16 AM Post #112
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My question to the group, did anyone on here believe you could survive on a 40 hour a week job at McDonald's? I never did. I grew past those jobs many years ago while I still had a parental safety net.
I think it depends. Single, no kids, not in a big expensive city? You could probably get by with a 1 bedroom efficiency or something. But you'll just be treading water. Forget being able to save any money.
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IUCOLTFAN Jul 20 2013, 12:08 PM Post #113
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I don't think a minimum wage job is something that you can expect to save money. Treading water is better than drowning.
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Jazen Jul 20 2013, 12:47 PM Post #114
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My question to the group, did anyone on here believe you could survive on a 40 hour a week job at McDonald's? I never did. I grew past those jobs many years ago while I still had a parental safety net.
I think it depends. Single, no kids, not in a big expensive city? You could probably get by with a 1 bedroom efficiency or something. But you'll just be treading water. Forget being able to save any money.
I left the house at 18 ( a couple of months after I graduated high school), and got a job working at an insurance company in the small town of Lawrenceville, IL. At that time in 1985 minimum wage was $3.35 an hour. Work was only 4 or 5 blocks from my apartment -- luckily because I didn't have a car -- but in the grand scheme of things I couldn't have afforded the gas anyway.

I was able to pay $180.00 in rent every month, light bill and water bill, barely had enough for food but I survived with almost nothing left over.

My point is, I wouldn't have a clue as to how a single person in a small efficiency apartment could survive in today's economy versus the cost of living on minimum wage. Maybe it can be done today, I really wouldn't know.
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brumdog44 Jul 20 2013, 01:24 PM Post #115
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I don't think a minimum wage job is something that you can expect to save money. Treading water is better than drowning.
No one as suggested that people would be doing anything but living paycheck to paycheck.....the issue was that 40 hours per week on minimum wage is drowning. 70 hours per week was treading.
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mongo Jul 20 2013, 01:55 PM Post #116
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I don't think a minimum wage job is something that you can expect to save money. Treading water is better than drowning.
Yes but 40 hours at minimum wage you aren't treading water. You're drowning.
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IUCOLTFAN Jul 20 2013, 02:04 PM Post #117
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What is wrong with a roommate or a second job until you get established in life? Why is this generation any different than the last?
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mongo Jul 20 2013, 02:16 PM Post #118
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What is wrong with a roommate or a second job until you get established in life? Why is this generation any different than the last?
That's what most people are doing to get by. And the difference is, as it's been stated in this thread and others, that wages are not increasing proportionately to cost of living.
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dreachon Jul 20 2013, 03:01 PM Post #119
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"Studies show approximately 80 percent of Wal-Mart employees are forced to use food stamps and cost taxpayers an average of $1.02 billion in healthcare costs annually."


http://www.salon.com/2013/07/18/dont_fall_for_wal_marts_latest_hypocrisy/
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dreachon Jul 20 2013, 03:07 PM Post #120
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"Studies show approximately 80 percent of Wal-Mart employees are forced to use food stamps and cost taxpayers an average of $1.02 billion in healthcare costs annually."


http://www.salon.com/2013/07/18/dont_fall_for_wal_marts_latest_hypocrisy/
Basically what's happening is that company's can pass their costs onto consumers by not paying their employees a livable wage.
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