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The good cops thread
Tweet Topic Started: Dec 3 2014, 01:47 PM (574 Views)
brumdog44 Dec 13 2014, 11:48 AM Post #16
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I get that. But in the case of a stationary target (which is what we see in the video), I believe there is a difference.
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Mr Gray Dec 13 2014, 09:53 PM Post #17
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Dec 13 2014, 09:50 AM
Mr Gray
Dec 12 2014, 09:35 AM
brumdog44
Dec 11 2014, 11:06 PM
HoosierLars
Dec 10 2014, 10:37 AM
Another good story, but why was anyone in a hurry to keep this guy alive? He just stabbed an innocent student, and is clearly a defective human being who is just contributing to global warming. Ok, maybe that is a little harsh, but what would we done with this guy if he had recovered?
I don't recall as it's been awhile since we've talked about it....are you for or against capital punishment?

I am for it....but for heinous crimes AND conviction.

Aaron -- as I know you are against capital punishment -- do you not have a problem with this?
a problem with what?
A problem with a person who is a non-imminent threat dieing through police action while being arrested.

I had a problem with the statement that Lars had of 'why was anyone in a hurry to keep this guy alive' (and I know Lars is just being hyperbolic with the statement, but still) and I'm in favor of capital punishment. I would assume that if I were not in favor of capital punishment, I would have a huge problem with it.

One note -- I posted after I watched the video. After watching it, the threat level is a little higher than I thought but still not at a level that I would consider as a need to kill. I'm still not understanding why dis enabling but not fatal shots (I.e., shots toward the legs) aren't taken in these circumstances. It would be different if the armed man had a gun instead of a knife.
Regardless of my stance on capital punishment, I absolutely have a problem with cops taking the life of a person who isn't an immenent danger. It isn't their job to decide whether or not we are better off with them dead. That's a very very scary and dangerous stance.

I'm not really sure it applies here though. There is no merit whatsoever to shooting someone in the leg or shoulder or whatever. Rule #1 of firearm use is if the situation requires you to shoot, then you shoot to kill. An injured person can still cause fatal damag very easily. Adrenaline is powerful.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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brumdog44 Dec 14 2014, 12:57 AM Post #18
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Okay, I can cede that point if that is SOP. I just don't know that was the case....we not what the report says and if he did lunge, then it was called for. If not, then it was not, IMO.
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Mr Gray Dec 14 2014, 04:58 AM Post #19
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Dec 14 2014, 12:57 AM
Okay, I can cede that point if that is SOP. I just don't know that was the case....we not what the report says and if he did lunge, then it was called for. If not, then it was not, IMO.
yeah, I agree. I'm thinking, however, that is likely did lunge, because if these cops were just trigger happy, that video would have been a lot shorter.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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brumdog44 Dec 14 2014, 06:19 AM Post #20
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Dec 14 2014, 04:58 AM
brumdog44
Dec 14 2014, 12:57 AM
Okay, I can cede that point if that is SOP. I just don't know that was the case....we not what the report says and if he did lunge, then it was called for. If not, then it was not, IMO.
yeah, I agree. I'm thinking, however, that is likely did lunge, because if these cops were just trigger happy, that video would have been a lot shorter.
Could be. But then again, you could say the same for the man who was shot in that the video would be a lot shorter if he had been intent on charging the police. My guess is, though, that the he probably did grab the knife he had put down and then pick it back up and lunge.

I thought the police officer who did shoot made a tactical mistake in holstering his gun prior to obtaining the knife. It also appears that he lost sight of the assilant as he looked down in holstering his gun....probably would have been better served in loweing the gun, picking up the knife and then holstering it. But I know it's easier to sit back and make the call and the policeman who fired the shots most likely is trying to think if he could have done things differently.
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Mr Gray Dec 14 2014, 10:38 AM Post #21
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Dec 14 2014, 06:19 AM
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brumdog44
Dec 14 2014, 12:57 AM
Okay, I can cede that point if that is SOP. I just don't know that was the case....we not what the report says and if he did lunge, then it was called for. If not, then it was not, IMO.
yeah, I agree. I'm thinking, however, that is likely did lunge, because if these cops were just trigger happy, that video would have been a lot shorter.
Could be. But then again, you could say the same for the man who was shot in that the video would be a lot shorter if he had been intent on charging the police. My guess is, though, that the he probably did grab the knife he had put down and then pick it back up and lunge.

I thought the police officer who did shoot made a tactical mistake in holstering his gun prior to obtaining the knife. It also appears that he lost sight of the assilant as he looked down in holstering his gun....probably would have been better served in loweing the gun, picking up the knife and then holstering it. But I know it's easier to sit back and make the call and the policeman who fired the shots most likely is trying to think if he could have done things differently.
I would have had him drop the knife on the floor and kick it to me, but you're right....he definitely should not have lowered his guard until he had EVERYTHING under control, which he obviously didn't. I'm not sure that changes the outcome, but maybe.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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yawnzzz Dec 14 2014, 07:50 PM Post #22
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One thing that always has bothered me is police have many less than lethal options, but they regularly get stuck picking one quickly as they enter into a situation with no opportunity to scale down/up, so they almost always go for their pistol.

It seems like someone could design a pistol that had a switch similar to a safety that could switch between rubber and normal bullets.
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Mr Gray Dec 14 2014, 08:11 PM Post #23
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Dec 14 2014, 07:50 PM
One thing that always has bothered me is police have many less than lethal options, but they regularly get stuck picking one quickly as they enter into a situation with no opportunity to scale down/up, so they almost always go for their pistol.

It seems like someone could design a pistol that had a switch similar to a safety that could switch between rubber and normal bullets.
Hmm. It would have to have 2 barrels, and somehow have 2 separate clips. Nothing is impossible but that requires some serious engineering.
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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brumdog44 Dec 14 2014, 08:18 PM Post #24
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Dec 14 2014, 08:11 PM
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Dec 14 2014, 07:50 PM
One thing that always has bothered me is police have many less than lethal options, but they regularly get stuck picking one quickly as they enter into a situation with no opportunity to scale down/up, so they almost always go for their pistol.

It seems like someone could design a pistol that had a switch similar to a safety that could switch between rubber and normal bullets.
Hmm. It would have to have 2 barrels, and somehow have 2 separate clips. Nothing is impossible but that requires some serious engineering.
But wouldn't that go against what I suggested about the shoot to disable option? It would seem to me that if a real bullet to the leg isn't disabling because of the suspect's adrenaline, getting shot with rubber bullets would have the same effect.
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Mr Gray Dec 14 2014, 09:21 PM Post #25
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brumdog44
Dec 14 2014, 08:18 PM
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Dec 14 2014, 08:11 PM
yawnzzz
Dec 14 2014, 07:50 PM
One thing that always has bothered me is police have many less than lethal options, but they regularly get stuck picking one quickly as they enter into a situation with no opportunity to scale down/up, so they almost always go for their pistol.

It seems like someone could design a pistol that had a switch similar to a safety that could switch between rubber and normal bullets.
Hmm. It would have to have 2 barrels, and somehow have 2 separate clips. Nothing is impossible but that requires some serious engineering.
But wouldn't that go against what I suggested about the shoot to disable option? It would seem to me that if a real bullet to the leg isn't disabling because of the suspect's adrenaline, getting shot with rubber bullets would have the same effect.
Correct. I assumed he was talking about situations where there was no imminent threat.
Edited by Mr Gray, Dec 14 2014, 09:22 PM.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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brumdog44 Dec 14 2014, 09:59 PM Post #26
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Mr Gray
Dec 14 2014, 09:21 PM
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Dec 14 2014, 08:18 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 14 2014, 08:11 PM
yawnzzz
Dec 14 2014, 07:50 PM
One thing that always has bothered me is police have many less than lethal options, but they regularly get stuck picking one quickly as they enter into a situation with no opportunity to scale down/up, so they almost always go for their pistol.

It seems like someone could design a pistol that had a switch similar to a safety that could switch between rubber and normal bullets.
Hmm. It would have to have 2 barrels, and somehow have 2 separate clips. Nothing is impossible but that requires some serious engineering.
But wouldn't that go against what I suggested about the shoot to disable option? It would seem to me that if a real bullet to the leg isn't disabling because of the suspect's adrenaline, getting shot with rubber bullets would have the same effect.
Correct. I assumed he was talking about situations where there was no imminent threat.
IMO, if the threat is non imminent, I would prefer that the method of subduing not come from a gun which could switch between the two. Seems like human error in switching between them would be a risk.....both when the officer is meaning to disable or kill. Processing that information in the heat of the moment adds another complication to it.
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yawnzzz Dec 14 2014, 11:07 PM Post #27
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brumdog44
Dec 14 2014, 09:59 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 14 2014, 09:21 PM
brumdog44
Dec 14 2014, 08:18 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 14 2014, 08:11 PM
yawnzzz
Dec 14 2014, 07:50 PM
One thing that always has bothered me is police have many less than lethal options, but they regularly get stuck picking one quickly as they enter into a situation with no opportunity to scale down/up, so they almost always go for their pistol.

It seems like someone could design a pistol that had a switch similar to a safety that could switch between rubber and normal bullets.
Hmm. It would have to have 2 barrels, and somehow have 2 separate clips. Nothing is impossible but that requires some serious engineering.
But wouldn't that go against what I suggested about the shoot to disable option? It would seem to me that if a real bullet to the leg isn't disabling because of the suspect's adrenaline, getting shot with rubber bullets would have the same effect.
Correct. I assumed he was talking about situations where there was no imminent threat.
IMO, if the threat is non imminent, I would prefer that the method of subduing not come from a gun which could switch between the two. Seems like human error in switching between them would be a risk.....both when the officer is meaning to disable or kill. Processing that information in the heat of the moment adds another complication to it.
Shooting at limbs is not a realistic option due to the officer's adrenaline (not the suspect's). If you picture the breathing control a sharpshooter has to have to time his shot, then imagine if the exact opposite happened with nervous breathing. The degree of error is wide enough that the torso is the only large enough mass to consistently hit.

As far as adding human error with flipping a switch, it doesn't seem to be a problem with the safety. I'd imagine it would be an escalation switch where it always goes from gun pulled, safety off, rubber bullet fired, less-than-lethal off, bullet fired. It's rare that a rubber bullet to the chest wouldn't stop someone in their tracks. Ribs will be broken, and it's not guaranteed someone would survive, but it's much more likely than a normal bullet.

With regard to separate barrels and magazines, not so much. Rubber bullets are now manufactured to fit in a standard magazine. You technically can load a Glock with a rubber bullet followed by regular bullets essentially giving you the same thing with all existing technology.
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brumdog44 Dec 15 2014, 12:01 AM Post #28
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There are errors, with safeties, though. And I would think adding a third option would increase those even more. Particularly in a case where an officer believes the suspect can be disabling with rubber bullets and it turns out that they can not or the assailant has a deadly weapon that the officer did not see.
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sirbrianwilson Dec 15 2014, 01:46 AM Post #29
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Set your lasers to stun! ;)
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Mr Gray Dec 15 2014, 07:10 AM Post #30
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yawnzzz
Dec 14 2014, 11:07 PM
brumdog44
Dec 14 2014, 09:59 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 14 2014, 09:21 PM
brumdog44
Dec 14 2014, 08:18 PM
Mr Gray
Dec 14 2014, 08:11 PM
yawnzzz
Dec 14 2014, 07:50 PM
One thing that always has bothered me is police have many less than lethal options, but they regularly get stuck picking one quickly as they enter into a situation with no opportunity to scale down/up, so they almost always go for their pistol.

It seems like someone could design a pistol that had a switch similar to a safety that could switch between rubber and normal bullets.
Hmm. It would have to have 2 barrels, and somehow have 2 separate clips. Nothing is impossible but that requires some serious engineering.
But wouldn't that go against what I suggested about the shoot to disable option? It would seem to me that if a real bullet to the leg isn't disabling because of the suspect's adrenaline, getting shot with rubber bullets would have the same effect.
Correct. I assumed he was talking about situations where there was no imminent threat.
IMO, if the threat is non imminent, I would prefer that the method of subduing not come from a gun which could switch between the two. Seems like human error in switching between them would be a risk.....both when the officer is meaning to disable or kill. Processing that information in the heat of the moment adds another complication to it.
Shooting at limbs is not a realistic option due to the officer's adrenaline (not the suspect's). If you picture the breathing control a sharpshooter has to have to time his shot, then imagine if the exact opposite happened with nervous breathing. The degree of error is wide enough that the torso is the only large enough mass to consistently hit.

As far as adding human error with flipping a switch, it doesn't seem to be a problem with the safety. I'd imagine it would be an escalation switch where it always goes from gun pulled, safety off, rubber bullet fired, less-than-lethal off, bullet fired. It's rare that a rubber bullet to the chest wouldn't stop someone in their tracks. Ribs will be broken, and it's not guaranteed someone would survive, but it's much more likely than a normal bullet.

With regard to separate barrels and magazines, not so much. Rubber bullets are now manufactured to fit in a standard magazine. You technically can load a Glock with a rubber bullet followed by regular bullets essentially giving you the same thing with all existing technology.
So then you're not talking about the officer choosing between rubber and lead like you said earlier with a switch, because that would indeed require to separate chan wring mechanisms.....clips. Your now talking about making the first bullet always be rubber. That's not a great idea for situations where the first shot must be fatal in order to save lives.

Again, not impossible.....they already have double rail clips, but they are designed to alternate walls to give more ammo per clip. Loading rubber into one side and lead into the other could work, but a sophisticated switch would have to be engineered at the top of the clip, stopping one wall from loading into the chamber.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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