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Mississippi & NC religious freedom laws
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Topic Started: Apr 6 2016, 01:24 PM (2,721 Views)
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Mr Gray
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Apr 30 2016, 10:35 AM
Post #256
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Coach
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- sirbrianwilson
- Apr 30 2016, 09:58 AM
Again, you should really go to an LGBT peer support group and learn about these issues from those most affected. Again, this is about their comfort, not yours. Also, many would say the same thing I would say in terms of family restrooms, why use them if they are intended for families/disabled folks? Also, being "forced" into a family restroom can make someone feel outed when they don't want to be. Brian, I live in Charlotte where this issue really hit the fan. I hear about the plight of the trans people all the time. I'm well aware. I just want to confirm what you are saying. It is more about comfort than safety right? Let me give a very clear example so we can clarify without confusion.
A man identifies as a women. He is at a public place an there are 3 bathrooms available. A men's, a women's and a unisex. He has safety concerns with the men's restroom. No safety concerns with the women's and obviously none with the unisex since its single stall and the door locks. Should he be allowed to use the women's bathroom simply because that's where he is more comfortable in that situation? Yes or no.
Edited by Mr Gray, Apr 30 2016, 10:35 AM.
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 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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sirbrianwilson
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Apr 30 2016, 10:45 AM
Post #257
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Stemlerite
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Yes. And the unisex isn't necessarily the safest option as mentioned above. If you can't see that then you really aren't educated from a trans point of view on this issue. That's ok though and I appreciate this line of questioning because I'll interpret it as your desire to learn more. Although, it'd be best learned from those most affected.
Br
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sirbrianwilson
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Apr 30 2016, 10:49 AM
Post #258
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http://transcaresite.org/?page_id=995
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Mr Gray
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Apr 30 2016, 10:49 AM
Post #259
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Coach
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- sirbrianwilson
- Apr 30 2016, 10:45 AM
Yes. And the unisex isn't necessarily the safest option as mentioned above. If you can't see that then you really aren't educated from a trans point of view on this issue. That's ok though and I appreciate this line of questioning because I'll interpret it as your desire to learn more. Although, it'd be best learned from those most affected.
Br What are the safety concerns with the single stall u used locked door bathroom in my example?
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 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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sirbrianwilson
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Apr 30 2016, 10:52 AM
Post #260
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Stemlerite
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There are many scenarios where that can out someone when they don't want to be outed.
I'm just not sure what your big concern here is. You've shared a public restroom with trans people for years. Your kids have as well. Your parents have. Why segregate at the expense of trans safety now?
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Mr Gray
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Apr 30 2016, 11:19 AM
Post #261
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- sirbrianwilson
- Apr 30 2016, 10:52 AM
There are many scenarios where that can out someone when they don't want to be outed.
I'm just not sure what your big concern here is. You've shared a public restroom with trans people for years. Your kids have as well. Your parents have. Why segregate at the expense of trans safety now? This doesn't address your statement that the unisex single stall door locked bathroom can be unsafe. Please clarify. How are they unsafe or subject to violence in that situation?
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 The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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brumdog44
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Apr 30 2016, 02:02 PM
Post #262
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The guy picked last in gym class
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- sirbrianwilson
- Apr 30 2016, 09:58 AM
Again, this is about their comfort, not yours. Why would we pass laws based on 'comfort'? 'Uncomfortable' and 'discriminated against' are NOT the same thing.
And when you say its about 'their comfort, not yours' you have automatically made a decision one person's comfort is automatically greater than another's.
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brumdog44
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Apr 30 2016, 02:09 PM
Post #263
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The guy picked last in gym class
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- dreachon
- Apr 30 2016, 09:29 AM
- Mr Gray
- Apr 30 2016, 07:47 AM
Brian and dreach, I have a question. In the trans bathroom situation, if a 3rd unisex or family restroom is available, should the trans person have to use that one or should they still be allowed to use the one opposite of their biological gender if that's what they identify with?
Again, I just think people should use whichever bathroom they feel is appropriate at the time. I mentioned I have a daughter. I also have a son. Depending on the situation, I've brought them into the women's restroom before, usually because there's no changing table in a men's restroom. The North Carolina law did account for children going into the bathroom of their parent's biological sex. Think is was children 8 and under.
I don't know where you've lived, but pretty much every public facility I go to there is either:
1. a changing table in both restrooms 2. a family bathroom that has a changing table. 3. not a changing table in either restroom.
I just can't really think of any public facilities that I have been in recently where there was a changing table only available to one sex. That doesn't necessarily hold true for private businesses, but the law in discussion is for public facilities.
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sirbrianwilson
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Apr 30 2016, 02:20 PM
Post #264
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Stemlerite
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maybe every place should have a bathroom for straight males, gay males, trans, straight females, lesbians, and one for families.
Orrrrrrrr we could just do what we've been doing forever with no incident.
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dreachon
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Apr 30 2016, 04:11 PM
Post #265
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- brumdog44
- Apr 30 2016, 02:09 PM
- dreachon
- Apr 30 2016, 09:29 AM
- Mr Gray
- Apr 30 2016, 07:47 AM
Brian and dreach, I have a question. In the trans bathroom situation, if a 3rd unisex or family restroom is available, should the trans person have to use that one or should they still be allowed to use the one opposite of their biological gender if that's what they identify with?
Again, I just think people should use whichever bathroom they feel is appropriate at the time. I mentioned I have a daughter. I also have a son. Depending on the situation, I've brought them into the women's restroom before, usually because there's no changing table in a men's restroom.
The North Carolina law did account for children going into the bathroom of their parent's biological sex. Think is was children 8 and under. I don't know where you've lived, but pretty much every public facility I go to there is either: 1. a changing table in both restrooms 2. a family bathroom that has a changing table. 3. not a changing table in either restroom. I just can't really think of any public facilities that I have been in recently where there was a changing table only available to one sex. That doesn't necessarily hold true for private businesses, but the law in discussion is for public facilities. I live in Puerto Rico. And I was a stay at home dad for awhile. Lots of places without a changing table in the men's restroom including, funny enough, the local children's museum we're members of. But I def ran into this issue in St. Louis as well. Only point is, as long as people act like adults, it's not an issue.
As for trans person in a family restroom, I def would not want to force them into using it. First of all, it's designed for families with small children. If a regular restroom is available, people should use it and keep the family bathroom clear. Second of all, a trans person going into the family restroom alone could certainly draw unwanted attention that they wouldn't receive going into a normal restroom. I don't see any logic in forcing a trans person to use a family restroom.
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brumdog44
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Apr 30 2016, 04:18 PM
Post #266
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The guy picked last in gym class
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- dreachon
- Apr 30 2016, 04:11 PM
- brumdog44
- Apr 30 2016, 02:09 PM
- dreachon
- Apr 30 2016, 09:29 AM
- Mr Gray
- Apr 30 2016, 07:47 AM
Brian and dreach, I have a question. In the trans bathroom situation, if a 3rd unisex or family restroom is available, should the trans person have to use that one or should they still be allowed to use the one opposite of their biological gender if that's what they identify with?
Again, I just think people should use whichever bathroom they feel is appropriate at the time. I mentioned I have a daughter. I also have a son. Depending on the situation, I've brought them into the women's restroom before, usually because there's no changing table in a men's restroom.
The North Carolina law did account for children going into the bathroom of their parent's biological sex. Think is was children 8 and under. I don't know where you've lived, but pretty much every public facility I go to there is either: 1. a changing table in both restrooms 2. a family bathroom that has a changing table. 3. not a changing table in either restroom. I just can't really think of any public facilities that I have been in recently where there was a changing table only available to one sex. That doesn't necessarily hold true for private businesses, but the law in discussion is for public facilities.
I live in Puerto Rico. And I was a stay at home dad for awhile. Lots of places without a changing table in the men's restroom including, funny enough, the local children's museum we're members of. But I def ran into this issue in St. Louis as well. Only point is, as long as people act like adults, it's not an issue. As for trans person in a family restroom, I def would not want to force them into using it. First of all, it's designed for families with small children. If a regular restroom is available, people should use it and keep the family bathroom clear. Second of all, a trans person going into the family restroom alone could certainly draw unwanted attention that they wouldn't receive going into a normal restroom. I don't see any logic in forcing a trans person to use a family restroom. They aren't forced. Forced would mean that is the only option. It's not. Where are we that providing extra accommodations is now 'forcing'?
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brumdog44
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Apr 30 2016, 04:20 PM
Post #267
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The guy picked last in gym class
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- sirbrianwilson
- Apr 30 2016, 02:20 PM
maybe every place should have a bathroom for straight males, gay males, trans, straight females, lesbians, and one for families.
Orrrrrrrr we could just do what we've been doing forever with no incident. Or maybe we could just could do what we accuse others of doing and make a strawman argument.
And if we are to continue doing what we 'have done forever'....then why was there a need for the Charlotte law?
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dreachon
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Apr 30 2016, 04:23 PM
Post #268
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Creative Title Here
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- brumdog44
- Apr 30 2016, 04:18 PM
- dreachon
- Apr 30 2016, 04:11 PM
- brumdog44
- Apr 30 2016, 02:09 PM
- dreachon
- Apr 30 2016, 09:29 AM
- Mr Gray
- Apr 30 2016, 07:47 AM
Brian and dreach, I have a question. In the trans bathroom situation, if a 3rd unisex or family restroom is available, should the trans person have to use that one or should they still be allowed to use the one opposite of their biological gender if that's what they identify with?
Again, I just think people should use whichever bathroom they feel is appropriate at the time. I mentioned I have a daughter. I also have a son. Depending on the situation, I've brought them into the women's restroom before, usually because there's no changing table in a men's restroom.
The North Carolina law did account for children going into the bathroom of their parent's biological sex. Think is was children 8 and under. I don't know where you've lived, but pretty much every public facility I go to there is either: 1. a changing table in both restrooms 2. a family bathroom that has a changing table. 3. not a changing table in either restroom. I just can't really think of any public facilities that I have been in recently where there was a changing table only available to one sex. That doesn't necessarily hold true for private businesses, but the law in discussion is for public facilities.
I live in Puerto Rico. And I was a stay at home dad for awhile. Lots of places without a changing table in the men's restroom including, funny enough, the local children's museum we're members of. But I def ran into this issue in St. Louis as well. Only point is, as long as people act like adults, it's not an issue. As for trans person in a family restroom, I def would not want to force them into using it. First of all, it's designed for families with small children. If a regular restroom is available, people should use it and keep the family bathroom clear. Second of all, a trans person going into the family restroom alone could certainly draw unwanted attention that they wouldn't receive going into a normal restroom. I don't see any logic in forcing a trans person to use a family restroom.
They aren't forced. Forced would mean that is the only option. It's not. Where are we that providing extra accommodations is now 'forcing'? That was Aarons question. If all three are available should trans people be forced to use the family restroom. That's what I thought he was asking anyways.
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brumdog44
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Apr 30 2016, 04:24 PM
Post #269
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The guy picked last in gym class
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- brumdog44
- Apr 30 2016, 04:18 PM
- dreachon
- Apr 30 2016, 04:11 PM
- brumdog44
- Apr 30 2016, 02:09 PM
- dreachon
- Apr 30 2016, 09:29 AM
- Mr Gray
- Apr 30 2016, 07:47 AM
Brian and dreach, I have a question. In the trans bathroom situation, if a 3rd unisex or family restroom is available, should the trans person have to use that one or should they still be allowed to use the one opposite of their biological gender if that's what they identify with?
Again, I just think people should use whichever bathroom they feel is appropriate at the time. I mentioned I have a daughter. I also have a son. Depending on the situation, I've brought them into the women's restroom before, usually because there's no changing table in a men's restroom.
The North Carolina law did account for children going into the bathroom of their parent's biological sex. Think is was children 8 and under. I don't know where you've lived, but pretty much every public facility I go to there is either: 1. a changing table in both restrooms 2. a family bathroom that has a changing table. 3. not a changing table in either restroom. I just can't really think of any public facilities that I have been in recently where there was a changing table only available to one sex. That doesn't necessarily hold true for private businesses, but the law in discussion is for public facilities.
I live in Puerto Rico. And I was a stay at home dad for awhile. Lots of places without a changing table in the men's restroom including, funny enough, the local children's museum we're members of. But I def ran into this issue in St. Louis as well. Only point is, as long as people act like adults, it's not an issue. As for trans person in a family restroom, I def would not want to force them into using it. First of all, it's designed for families with small children. If a regular restroom is available, people should use it and keep the family bathroom clear. Second of all, a trans person going into the family restroom alone could certainly draw unwanted attention that they wouldn't receive going into a normal restroom. I don't see any logic in forcing a trans person to use a family restroom.
They aren't forced. Forced would mean that is the only option. It's not. Where are we that providing extra accommodations is now 'forcing'? In terms of 'we should all act adults', aren't laws created for when people are not?
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dreachon
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Apr 30 2016, 04:25 PM
Post #270
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Creative Title Here
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- brumdog44
- Apr 30 2016, 04:24 PM
- brumdog44
- Apr 30 2016, 04:18 PM
- dreachon
- Apr 30 2016, 04:11 PM
- brumdog44
- Apr 30 2016, 02:09 PM
- dreachon
- Apr 30 2016, 09:29 AM
- Mr Gray
- Apr 30 2016, 07:47 AM
Brian and dreach, I have a question. In the trans bathroom situation, if a 3rd unisex or family restroom is available, should the trans person have to use that one or should they still be allowed to use the one opposite of their biological gender if that's what they identify with?
Again, I just think people should use whichever bathroom they feel is appropriate at the time. I mentioned I have a daughter. I also have a son. Depending on the situation, I've brought them into the women's restroom before, usually because there's no changing table in a men's restroom.
The North Carolina law did account for children going into the bathroom of their parent's biological sex. Think is was children 8 and under. I don't know where you've lived, but pretty much every public facility I go to there is either: 1. a changing table in both restrooms 2. a family bathroom that has a changing table. 3. not a changing table in either restroom. I just can't really think of any public facilities that I have been in recently where there was a changing table only available to one sex. That doesn't necessarily hold true for private businesses, but the law in discussion is for public facilities.
I live in Puerto Rico. And I was a stay at home dad for awhile. Lots of places without a changing table in the men's restroom including, funny enough, the local children's museum we're members of. But I def ran into this issue in St. Louis as well. Only point is, as long as people act like adults, it's not an issue. As for trans person in a family restroom, I def would not want to force them into using it. First of all, it's designed for families with small children. If a regular restroom is available, people should use it and keep the family bathroom clear. Second of all, a trans person going into the family restroom alone could certainly draw unwanted attention that they wouldn't receive going into a normal restroom. I don't see any logic in forcing a trans person to use a family restroom.
They aren't forced. Forced would mean that is the only option. It's not. Where are we that providing extra accommodations is now 'forcing'?
In terms of 'we should all act adults', aren't laws created for when people are not? Brum, not sure how many times I have to say it. I'm not in favor of either law, Charlotte's included.
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