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Mississippi & NC religious freedom laws
Tweet Topic Started: Apr 6 2016, 01:24 PM (2,719 Views)
dreachon May 1 2016, 06:44 PM Post #286
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Oh I realize it's an issue schools are going to have to deal with. But your question was specifically about a boy who is not transgender, does not identify as a woman, and simply wants to go into the women's locker room because that's where he is "most comfortable." Yeah right.

As for how this should be handled in schools with real life kids who are really transgendered, I think the result will vary depending on the child, school, and situation. I believe schools should make concerted effort to accommodate kids when it is necessary and they are able. For some schools, that will be easy. For others maybe not so much. There has to be compromise from the school AND from the transgender student.I don't think there is a singular solution here that can be applied everywhere. And so I'm happy to let the courts deal with these situations when a compromise can seemingly not be reached.
As someone who has worked in education all of my life, the scenario he asked about is very real -- removal of an opposite sex member from a bathroom is definitely not a rare occurrence. So the question he is asking is based on what can be done if a student does that and then upon discipline being given out, says that is where he is 'most comfortable'. The law as written doesn't establish guidelines.

In terms of accommodations, if a school provides unisex, single stall bathrooms open to every one, have they met their accommodation responsibility? It would seem to me that is compromise between the school and transgender student.
He's not talking about boys playing a prank/getting a peep show/being mischievous. He's talking about boys who are not transgender, don't identify as women, and simply feel more comfortable using the girls bathroom in their everyday lives. Any of your kids getting removed from the women's room fall under that category, Brum?

Yes, I would say a school has satisfied reasonable accommodations by having a unisex bathroom. However, I imagine that's not always possible either which is why these things really just need to be figured out on a case by case basis.
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brumdog44 May 1 2016, 10:35 PM Post #287
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May 1 2016, 06:44 PM
He's not talking about boys playing a prank/getting a peep show/being mischievous. He's talking about boys who are not transgender, don't identify as women, and simply feel more comfortable using the girls bathroom in their everyday lives. Any of your kids getting removed from the women's room fall under that category, Brum?

Yes, I would say a school has satisfied reasonable accommodations by having a unisex bathroom. However, I imagine that's not always possible either which is why these things really just need to be figured out on a case by case basis.
I don't know where you are getting the first thing from.....I think he is directly speaking about teenage boys doing just that.

And if we do want to talk about the legality of it......legally what makes someone transgender? I would state to you that nothing does.

In terms of unisex bathrooms satisfying the accomodations, while it seems reasonable to assume a school has satisfied their responsibility by doing so, I can tell you that at this time that is 100% NOT the case. There is still a lot to hit the courts, but unless there is a ruling stating that it satisfies the accommadation, it's simply not so.
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Mr Gray May 2 2016, 07:27 AM Post #288
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May 1 2016, 08:01 AM
Oh I realize it's an issue schools are going to have to deal with. But your question was specifically about a boy who is not transgender, does not identify as a woman, and simply wants to go into the women's locker room because that's where he is "most comfortable." Yeah right.

As for how this should be handled in schools with real life kids who are really transgendered, I think the result will vary depending on the child, school, and situation. I believe schools should make concerted effort to accommodate kids when it is necessary and they are able. For some schools, that will be easy. For others maybe not so much. There has to be compromise from the school AND from the transgender student.I don't think there is a singular solution here that can be applied everywhere. And so I'm happy to let the courts deal with these situations when a compromise can seemingly not be reached.
As someone who has worked in education all of my life, the scenario he asked about is very real -- removal of an opposite sex member from a bathroom is definitely not a rare occurrence. So the question he is asking is based on what can be done if a student does that and then upon discipline being given out, says that is where he is 'most comfortable'. The law as written doesn't establish guidelines.

In terms of accommodations, if a school provides unisex, single stall bathrooms open to every one, have they met their accommodation responsibility? It would seem to me that is compromise between the school and transgender student.
He's not talking about boys playing a prank/getting a peep show/being mischievous. He's talking about boys who are not transgender, don't identify as women, and simply feel more comfortable using the girls bathroom in their everyday lives. Any of your kids getting removed from the women's room fall under that category, Brum?

Yes, I would say a school has satisfied reasonable accommodations by having a unisex bathroom. However, I imagine that's not always possible either which is why these things really just need to be figured out on a case by case basis.
dreach, you seriously think it's reasonable to handle potentially tens of thousands or more of these situations on a "case by case basis"? LOL.....so can private businesses do the same with their restrooms? Your inconsistency is a little concerning.

1) You acknowledge that physical differences can dictate rules of society
2) If someone is transgender then physical differences do not dictate rules of society
3) Comfort trumps physical differences in terms of rules of society
4) But physical differences trump comfort for minors in schools
5) But not in all cases
6) So our policy should be that in some cases (on a case by case basis) it is OK to discriminate, in some cases comfort is an issue, and in some cases we cannot discriminate.

:'(
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eelbor May 2 2016, 07:27 AM Post #289
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Apr 30 2016, 05:10 PM
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Apr 30 2016, 04:33 PM
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Apr 30 2016, 04:23 PM
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Apr 30 2016, 04:18 PM

Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
That was Aarons question. If all three are available should trans people be forced to use the family restroom. That's what I thought he was asking anyways.
I think the question was about whether they should be allowed to use either the restroom of their physical sex or the unisex bathroom as opposed to their gender identity.
Yes. Dreach, are you with Brian that a person should be able to use the bathroom that they are more comfortable with even if that is the opposite of their biological sex and a unisex bathroom is available ?
Yes. Otherwise we would need a law saying they can't, which I'm against. Though I do think the overwhelming majority of the time, they would choose the unisex bathroom.
ok, so I'm curious. I am a straight white non trans male. Do you give me the same consideration? If I'm more comfortable in the women's restroom, is that where I should be allowed to go? I'm not talking about irregular situations with kids, or elderly, a disgustingly dirty men's restroom or lack of changing tables...etc. just a regular old situation where I need to pee and I determine that I'm more comfortable in the women's restroom. What do you say?
When is this actually a real life situation though? I prefer to deal in reality.

But, to answer your question, since I'm against a law telling you that you can't, then sure. There are probably lots of situations where it doesn't say you specifically can't do something but no one actually does because it doesn't make any sense. As long as everyone acts like mature adults. I really don't think there would ever be an issue. You're essentially describing unisex bathrooms, which we know work just fine.
Ok, fair enough. So the same thing then for a high school boy? If he feels more comfortable in the girls bathroom then that's the one he should be allowed to be in at school?
He's not an adult. He doesn't get to make that decision. Schools and locker rooms are inherently different situations.
Why? It's ok to discriminate against him because he's a minor?
Yes, legally. See how much of a right to free speech they have while you are at it. Or freedom of the press. Children and students are not granted the same rights as adults nor will they ever be. Please keep in mind I am not on the opposite side on this one, but you are in the weeds here Gray.
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"Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed


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Mr Gray May 2 2016, 07:33 AM Post #290
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He's not talking about boys playing a prank/getting a peep show/being mischievous. He's talking about boys who are not transgender, don't identify as women, and simply feel more comfortable using the girls bathroom in their everyday lives. Any of your kids getting removed from the women's room fall under that category, Brum?

Yes, I would say a school has satisfied reasonable accommodations by having a unisex bathroom. However, I imagine that's not always possible either which is why these things really just need to be figured out on a case by case basis.
I don't know where you are getting the first thing from.....I think he is directly speaking about teenage boys doing just that.

And if we do want to talk about the legality of it......legally what makes someone transgender? I would state to you that nothing does.

In terms of unisex bathrooms satisfying the accomodations, while it seems reasonable to assume a school has satisfied their responsibility by doing so, I can tell you that at this time that is 100% NOT the case. There is still a lot to hit the courts, but unless there is a ruling stating that it satisfies the accommadation, it's simply not so.
regarding the 1st....I'm speaking of that boy claiming "comfort" for whatever reason he wants. If it is discrimination to not let a man use the restroom he is comfortable with in public, then by that same reasoning it HAS TO BE DISCRIMINATION in the school......we don't turn civil rights off at the door to the school building as far as I know.

Schools are not allowed to discriminate by race or other protected classes, so either it is discrimination to not let a person use the restroom they are comfortable in, or you are using the "comfort" attribute to make special accommodations for trans people that non-trans people don't get.....thus now you are discriminating against the non-trans people.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray May 2 2016, 07:34 AM Post #291
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Apr 30 2016, 05:24 PM
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Apr 30 2016, 04:33 PM
dreachon
Apr 30 2016, 04:23 PM

Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
I think the question was about whether they should be allowed to use either the restroom of their physical sex or the unisex bathroom as opposed to their gender identity.
Yes. Dreach, are you with Brian that a person should be able to use the bathroom that they are more comfortable with even if that is the opposite of their biological sex and a unisex bathroom is available ?
Yes. Otherwise we would need a law saying they can't, which I'm against. Though I do think the overwhelming majority of the time, they would choose the unisex bathroom.
ok, so I'm curious. I am a straight white non trans male. Do you give me the same consideration? If I'm more comfortable in the women's restroom, is that where I should be allowed to go? I'm not talking about irregular situations with kids, or elderly, a disgustingly dirty men's restroom or lack of changing tables...etc. just a regular old situation where I need to pee and I determine that I'm more comfortable in the women's restroom. What do you say?
When is this actually a real life situation though? I prefer to deal in reality.

But, to answer your question, since I'm against a law telling you that you can't, then sure. There are probably lots of situations where it doesn't say you specifically can't do something but no one actually does because it doesn't make any sense. As long as everyone acts like mature adults. I really don't think there would ever be an issue. You're essentially describing unisex bathrooms, which we know work just fine.
Ok, fair enough. So the same thing then for a high school boy? If he feels more comfortable in the girls bathroom then that's the one he should be allowed to be in at school?
He's not an adult. He doesn't get to make that decision. Schools and locker rooms are inherently different situations.
Why? It's ok to discriminate against him because he's a minor?
Yes, legally. See how much of a right to free speech they have while you are at it. Or freedom of the press. Children and students are not granted the same rights as adults nor will they ever be. Please keep in mind I am not on the opposite side on this one, but you are in the weeds here Gray.
discrimination of protected classes is not allowed for minors.......I'm not in the weeds. Try to install a "colored" bathroom in a school and tell me what happens.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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eelbor May 2 2016, 08:24 AM Post #292
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Apr 30 2016, 05:10 PM
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Apr 30 2016, 04:48 PM
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Apr 30 2016, 04:33 PM

Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
Yes. Dreach, are you with Brian that a person should be able to use the bathroom that they are more comfortable with even if that is the opposite of their biological sex and a unisex bathroom is available ?
Yes. Otherwise we would need a law saying they can't, which I'm against. Though I do think the overwhelming majority of the time, they would choose the unisex bathroom.
ok, so I'm curious. I am a straight white non trans male. Do you give me the same consideration? If I'm more comfortable in the women's restroom, is that where I should be allowed to go? I'm not talking about irregular situations with kids, or elderly, a disgustingly dirty men's restroom or lack of changing tables...etc. just a regular old situation where I need to pee and I determine that I'm more comfortable in the women's restroom. What do you say?
When is this actually a real life situation though? I prefer to deal in reality.

But, to answer your question, since I'm against a law telling you that you can't, then sure. There are probably lots of situations where it doesn't say you specifically can't do something but no one actually does because it doesn't make any sense. As long as everyone acts like mature adults. I really don't think there would ever be an issue. You're essentially describing unisex bathrooms, which we know work just fine.
Ok, fair enough. So the same thing then for a high school boy? If he feels more comfortable in the girls bathroom then that's the one he should be allowed to be in at school?
He's not an adult. He doesn't get to make that decision. Schools and locker rooms are inherently different situations.
Why? It's ok to discriminate against him because he's a minor?
Yes, legally. See how much of a right to free speech they have while you are at it. Or freedom of the press. Children and students are not granted the same rights as adults nor will they ever be. Please keep in mind I am not on the opposite side on this one, but you are in the weeds here Gray.
discrimination of protected classes is not allowed for minors.......I'm not in the weeds. Try to install a "colored" bathroom in a school and tell me what happens.
So where in your scenario does a violation of a protected class happen?

Just because there is discrimination does not make it illegal. Schools get to act in loco patentis, meaning while the minor is at school it can act as a substitute parent and make decicions for the child that are outside of normal governmental purview.
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"Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed


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dreachon May 2 2016, 09:50 AM Post #293
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He's not talking about boys playing a prank/getting a peep show/being mischievous. He's talking about boys who are not transgender, don't identify as women, and simply feel more comfortable using the girls bathroom in their everyday lives. Any of your kids getting removed from the women's room fall under that category, Brum?

Yes, I would say a school has satisfied reasonable accommodations by having a unisex bathroom. However, I imagine that's not always possible either which is why these things really just need to be figured out on a case by case basis.
I don't know where you are getting the first thing from.....I think he is directly speaking about teenage boys doing just that.

And if we do want to talk about the legality of it......legally what makes someone transgender? I would state to you that nothing does.

In terms of unisex bathrooms satisfying the accomodations, while it seems reasonable to assume a school has satisfied their responsibility by doing so, I can tell you that at this time that is 100% NOT the case. There is still a lot to hit the courts, but unless there is a ruling stating that it satisfies the accommadation, it's simply not so.
No, he wasn't. This was his quote.
Quote:
 
I am a straight white non trans male. Do you give me the same consideration? If I'm more comfortable in the women's restroom, is that where I should be allowed to go? I'm not talking about irregular situations with kids, or elderly, a disgustingly dirty men's restroom or lack of changing tables...etc.


As for the legality of offering a unisex bathroom, all I can say is that it's enough for me. Whether it's enough for the courts will be determined. Just my opinion that a unisex bathroom should satisfy everyone's needs.
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dreachon May 2 2016, 10:05 AM Post #294
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May 1 2016, 08:54 AM
dreachon
May 1 2016, 08:01 AM
Oh I realize it's an issue schools are going to have to deal with. But your question was specifically about a boy who is not transgender, does not identify as a woman, and simply wants to go into the women's locker room because that's where he is "most comfortable." Yeah right.

As for how this should be handled in schools with real life kids who are really transgendered, I think the result will vary depending on the child, school, and situation. I believe schools should make concerted effort to accommodate kids when it is necessary and they are able. For some schools, that will be easy. For others maybe not so much. There has to be compromise from the school AND from the transgender student.I don't think there is a singular solution here that can be applied everywhere. And so I'm happy to let the courts deal with these situations when a compromise can seemingly not be reached.
As someone who has worked in education all of my life, the scenario he asked about is very real -- removal of an opposite sex member from a bathroom is definitely not a rare occurrence. So the question he is asking is based on what can be done if a student does that and then upon discipline being given out, says that is where he is 'most comfortable'. The law as written doesn't establish guidelines.

In terms of accommodations, if a school provides unisex, single stall bathrooms open to every one, have they met their accommodation responsibility? It would seem to me that is compromise between the school and transgender student.
He's not talking about boys playing a prank/getting a peep show/being mischievous. He's talking about boys who are not transgender, don't identify as women, and simply feel more comfortable using the girls bathroom in their everyday lives. Any of your kids getting removed from the women's room fall under that category, Brum?

Yes, I would say a school has satisfied reasonable accommodations by having a unisex bathroom. However, I imagine that's not always possible either which is why these things really just need to be figured out on a case by case basis.
dreach, you seriously think it's reasonable to handle potentially tens of thousands or more of these situations on a "case by case basis"? LOL.....so can private businesses do the same with their restrooms? Your inconsistency is a little concerning.

1) You acknowledge that physical differences can dictate rules of society
2) If someone is transgender then physical differences do not dictate rules of society
3) Comfort trumps physical differences in terms of rules of society
4) But physical differences trump comfort for minors in schools
5) But not in all cases
6) So our policy should be that in some cases (on a case by case basis) it is OK to discriminate, in some cases comfort is an issue, and in some cases we cannot discriminate.

:'(
There are literally millions of frivolous lawsuits which are a much bigger problem on the court system than these would be.

Who said anything about private businesses? I'll try to address each of your points here.

1) Clarify here. Which rules of society have I acknowledged are based on physical difference? Not saying there aren't any, but since you are harping on my inconsistency, please expand on this.
2) Did not say this.
3) Did not say this.
4) Lol. Also did not say this. You're not doing too well here.
5) This is correct. Situations can change based on the people involved. Shocker?
6) In some cases we already do discriminate. You went to the extreme of colored bathrooms. But of course it could be as simple as someone going to school with a confederate flag shirt. Or hell, even a just a wifebeater. But girls could wear tanktops if their cleavage isnt too low. Kids give up a lot of their rights in order to attend school, and if you don't believe that, send your kid to school with a gun s/he is legally aloud to carry and then report back what happens.

I'm not about to sit here and lay out what the law of the land for schools should be. I'm not that smart or full of myself. My general opinion is that schools should make an effort to accommodate students when it is necessary and they are able. That may mean the schools makes comprises or the student makes compromises or both. If they can't come to a solution then it'll go to the courts and I'll leave the decision making up to them.

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Mr Gray May 2 2016, 01:40 PM Post #295
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May 1 2016, 06:44 PM
He's not talking about boys playing a prank/getting a peep show/being mischievous. He's talking about boys who are not transgender, don't identify as women, and simply feel more comfortable using the girls bathroom in their everyday lives. Any of your kids getting removed from the women's room fall under that category, Brum?

Yes, I would say a school has satisfied reasonable accommodations by having a unisex bathroom. However, I imagine that's not always possible either which is why these things really just need to be figured out on a case by case basis.
I don't know where you are getting the first thing from.....I think he is directly speaking about teenage boys doing just that.

And if we do want to talk about the legality of it......legally what makes someone transgender? I would state to you that nothing does.

In terms of unisex bathrooms satisfying the accomodations, while it seems reasonable to assume a school has satisfied their responsibility by doing so, I can tell you that at this time that is 100% NOT the case. There is still a lot to hit the courts, but unless there is a ruling stating that it satisfies the accommadation, it's simply not so.
No, he wasn't. This was his quote.
Quote:
 
I am a straight white non trans male. Do you give me the same consideration? If I'm more comfortable in the women's restroom, is that where I should be allowed to go? I'm not talking about irregular situations with kids, or elderly, a disgustingly dirty men's restroom or lack of changing tables...etc.


As for the legality of offering a unisex bathroom, all I can say is that it's enough for me. Whether it's enough for the courts will be determined. Just my opinion that a unisex bathroom should satisfy everyone's needs.
Dreach, are you aware that your answer here is not in line with the lgbt advocate groups? In face you would be called a bigot or discriminatory by them for this thought process. This isn't a "gotcha".....just seriously wondering if you even knew that.

We have at least one on this board who would considered your stance discriminatory unless he has now changed his mind because it's a fellow liberal saying it.
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon May 2 2016, 02:02 PM Post #296
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May 1 2016, 06:44 PM
He's not talking about boys playing a prank/getting a peep show/being mischievous. He's talking about boys who are not transgender, don't identify as women, and simply feel more comfortable using the girls bathroom in their everyday lives. Any of your kids getting removed from the women's room fall under that category, Brum?

Yes, I would say a school has satisfied reasonable accommodations by having a unisex bathroom. However, I imagine that's not always possible either which is why these things really just need to be figured out on a case by case basis.
I don't know where you are getting the first thing from.....I think he is directly speaking about teenage boys doing just that.

And if we do want to talk about the legality of it......legally what makes someone transgender? I would state to you that nothing does.

In terms of unisex bathrooms satisfying the accomodations, while it seems reasonable to assume a school has satisfied their responsibility by doing so, I can tell you that at this time that is 100% NOT the case. There is still a lot to hit the courts, but unless there is a ruling stating that it satisfies the accommadation, it's simply not so.
No, he wasn't. This was his quote.
Quote:
 
I am a straight white non trans male. Do you give me the same consideration? If I'm more comfortable in the women's restroom, is that where I should be allowed to go? I'm not talking about irregular situations with kids, or elderly, a disgustingly dirty men's restroom or lack of changing tables...etc.


As for the legality of offering a unisex bathroom, all I can say is that it's enough for me. Whether it's enough for the courts will be determined. Just my opinion that a unisex bathroom should satisfy everyone's needs.
Dreach, are you aware that your answer here is not in line with the lgbt advocate groups? In face you would be called a bigot or discriminatory by them for this thought process. This isn't a "gotcha".....just seriously wondering if you even knew that.

We have at least one on this board who would considered your stance discriminatory unless he has now changed his mind because it's a fellow liberal saying it.
That's fine. I am a man of my own opinion. While I would love for every place do be able to do more, I like to deal in reality. The cost and inconvenience of forcing places to do renovations cannot be ignored. I'm a proponent of doing the best you can with what you have and making changes when necessary. I'd also be in favor of some sort of future guidelines, such as all future public buildings or renovations for existing buildings include appropriate accommodations. That seems way more reasonable to me.

But remember, my absolute first desire would be that there is no law dictating where people have to go to the bathroom. I find the whole thing ridiculous.
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brumdog44 May 2 2016, 03:54 PM Post #297
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dreachon
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May 1 2016, 06:44 PM
He's not talking about boys playing a prank/getting a peep show/being mischievous. He's talking about boys who are not transgender, don't identify as women, and simply feel more comfortable using the girls bathroom in their everyday lives. Any of your kids getting removed from the women's room fall under that category, Brum?

Yes, I would say a school has satisfied reasonable accommodations by having a unisex bathroom. However, I imagine that's not always possible either which is why these things really just need to be figured out on a case by case basis.
I don't know where you are getting the first thing from.....I think he is directly speaking about teenage boys doing just that.

And if we do want to talk about the legality of it......legally what makes someone transgender? I would state to you that nothing does.

In terms of unisex bathrooms satisfying the accomodations, while it seems reasonable to assume a school has satisfied their responsibility by doing so, I can tell you that at this time that is 100% NOT the case. There is still a lot to hit the courts, but unless there is a ruling stating that it satisfies the accommadation, it's simply not so.
No, he wasn't. This was his quote.
Quote:
 
I am a straight white non trans male. Do you give me the same consideration? If I'm more comfortable in the women's restroom, is that where I should be allowed to go? I'm not talking about irregular situations with kids, or elderly, a disgustingly dirty men's restroom or lack of changing tables...etc.


As for the legality of offering a unisex bathroom, all I can say is that it's enough for me. Whether it's enough for the courts will be determined. Just my opinion that a unisex bathroom should satisfy everyone's needs.
Two points, one that I believe supports something that Gray is saying and another that I think backs up dreach.

1. Legally, why would it matter what reason is provided for someone feeling more comfortable in an opposite gender bathroom? This isn't a gotcha question.....but if one 24 year old (since I want to distinguish this from minors) non transgender male were to wish to use the women's restroom and he is not doing anything in there that is illegal, how is it different from a 24 year old transgender doing the same?

2. Dreach is on record as saying he isn't in support of the Charlotte or North Carolina laws. That is factual.

While I understand Dreach's position that government shouldn't be getting involved in this (and it certainly is being made to be a much bigger issue than it is), it is something that -- whether it occurs now or later -- has to be addressed. There is and will continue to be a significant increase in the number of transgender people (we are currently at approximately .3%.....I would venture to say thirty years ago it was much, much less and thirty years from now it will be much greater) and the numbers are going to dictate a law at some point.
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brumdog44 May 2 2016, 03:59 PM Post #298
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Just because there is discrimination does not make it illegal. Schools get to act in loco patentis, meaning while the minor is at school it can act as a substitute parent and make decicions for the child that are outside of normal governmental purview.
It's kind of a 'yes and no' answer, though. Absolutely true that minors in public schools are not a protected class -- i.e., locker searches are legal (in addition, lockers are rented and not owned) and courts have consistently ruled that students do not have free speech in public schools (administration may edit what is placed in a school newspaper). But there are still protected classes that minors belong to -- schools can not discriminate based on race, sex, etc.
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eelbor May 2 2016, 05:27 PM Post #299
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eelbor
May 2 2016, 08:24 AM
Just because there is discrimination does not make it illegal. Schools get to act in loco patentis, meaning while the minor is at school it can act as a substitute parent and make decicions for the child that are outside of normal governmental purview.
It's kind of a 'yes and no' answer, though. Absolutely true that minors in public schools are not a protected class -- i.e., locker searches are legal (in addition, lockers are rented and not owned) and courts have consistently ruled that students do not have free speech in public schools (administration may edit what is placed in a school newspaper). But there are still protected classes that minors belong to -- schools can not discriminate based on race, sex, etc.
Agreed.
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"Liberal, shmiberal. That should be a new word. Shmiberal: one who is assumed liberal, just because he's a professional whiner in the newspaper. If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners." - Berkeley Breathed


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dreachon May 2 2016, 05:44 PM Post #300
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dreachon
May 1 2016, 06:44 PM
He's not talking about boys playing a prank/getting a peep show/being mischievous. He's talking about boys who are not transgender, don't identify as women, and simply feel more comfortable using the girls bathroom in their everyday lives. Any of your kids getting removed from the women's room fall under that category, Brum?

Yes, I would say a school has satisfied reasonable accommodations by having a unisex bathroom. However, I imagine that's not always possible either which is why these things really just need to be figured out on a case by case basis.
I don't know where you are getting the first thing from.....I think he is directly speaking about teenage boys doing just that.

And if we do want to talk about the legality of it......legally what makes someone transgender? I would state to you that nothing does.

In terms of unisex bathrooms satisfying the accomodations, while it seems reasonable to assume a school has satisfied their responsibility by doing so, I can tell you that at this time that is 100% NOT the case. There is still a lot to hit the courts, but unless there is a ruling stating that it satisfies the accommadation, it's simply not so.
No, he wasn't. This was his quote.
Quote:
 
I am a straight white non trans male. Do you give me the same consideration? If I'm more comfortable in the women's restroom, is that where I should be allowed to go? I'm not talking about irregular situations with kids, or elderly, a disgustingly dirty men's restroom or lack of changing tables...etc.


As for the legality of offering a unisex bathroom, all I can say is that it's enough for me. Whether it's enough for the courts will be determined. Just my opinion that a unisex bathroom should satisfy everyone's needs.
Two points, one that I believe supports something that Gray is saying and another that I think backs up dreach.

1. Legally, why would it matter what reason is provided for someone feeling more comfortable in an opposite gender bathroom? This isn't a gotcha question.....but if one 24 year old (since I want to distinguish this from minors) non transgender male were to wish to use the women's restroom and he is not doing anything in there that is illegal, how is it different from a 24 year old transgender doing the same?

2. Dreach is on record as saying he isn't in support of the Charlotte or North Carolina laws. That is factual.

While I understand Dreach's position that government shouldn't be getting involved in this (and it certainly is being made to be a much bigger issue than it is), it is something that -- whether it occurs now or later -- has to be addressed. There is and will continue to be a significant increase in the number of transgender people (we are currently at approximately .3%.....I would venture to say thirty years ago it was much, much less and thirty years from now it will be much greater) and the numbers are going to dictate a law at some point.
1) It wouldn't matter. I said earlier that could happen.
2) The only thing that should be addressed is tolerance and maturity in dealing with people who are different for yourself and from expectations.
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