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Mississippi & NC religious freedom laws
Tweet Topic Started: Apr 6 2016, 01:24 PM (2,711 Views)
dreachon May 20 2016, 01:17 PM Post #406
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Mr Gray
May 20 2016, 11:29 AM
do you really think it's feasible to have a law where every situation has to be determined on a case by case basis as to whether or not it is "appropriate"...even though what I might think is appropriate is different from what you might think is appropriate? Seriously dreach....you should honestly reconsider that.
Actually, I'm not advocating for any law to be in place. But in terms of dealing with every situation on a case by case basis, I feel that happens now anyways. I don't see how this would be any different. That's how the rules that govern our society were built.
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dreachon May 20 2016, 01:27 PM Post #407
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Mr Gray
May 20 2016, 11:44 AM
If you are a guy, believe you are a guy, and look like a guy, then you go to the guy's restroom
If you are a girl, believe you are a girl, and look like a girl, then you go to the girl's restroom

If you fall into another category, then we need some form of official designation other than "how I identify" or "whatever I feel is appropriate". I'm not saying that has to be a sex change operation and consequential birth certificate change, however it can't be as nebulous as "it's how I identify". You need to be living the life as the other gender if you want to use their bathroom.
Ok. Here we go. I really don't disagree with you much here. But I wonder how we're able to accommodate someone in another category (like a transgender person) without doing some sort of more open policy like I'm saying. I really don't know the answer to that and if there's a better way, I'm all ears. But from my point of view, it comes down to this...

1) Either you force the transgender community to use a bathroom of the sex they don't affiliate with.

2) You have to allow them and everyone to use the bathroom of the sex they affiliate with.

And under these scenarios, I want option 2. If there's a scenario that goes:

3) Everyone uses the bathroom of their birth gender except those that affiliate and live their lives as the opposite sex in which case they can use either bathroom depending on where they are in the process of being transgender.

I mean, if there is a way to do option 3, I'm listening. But legally, I don't think it can be done. How would you know? How would you enforce it? And so in the end I think the best situation is just to not have a law designating bathroom use.
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Mr Gray May 20 2016, 02:45 PM Post #408
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dreachon
May 20 2016, 01:27 PM
Mr Gray
May 20 2016, 11:44 AM
If you are a guy, believe you are a guy, and look like a guy, then you go to the guy's restroom
If you are a girl, believe you are a girl, and look like a girl, then you go to the girl's restroom

If you fall into another category, then we need some form of official designation other than "how I identify" or "whatever I feel is appropriate". I'm not saying that has to be a sex change operation and consequential birth certificate change, however it can't be as nebulous as "it's how I identify". You need to be living the life as the other gender if you want to use their bathroom.
Ok. Here we go. I really don't disagree with you much here. But I wonder how we're able to accommodate someone in another category (like a transgender person) without doing some sort of more open policy like I'm saying. I really don't know the answer to that and if there's a better way, I'm all ears. But from my point of view, it comes down to this...

1) Either you force the transgender community to use a bathroom of the sex they don't affiliate with.

2) You have to allow them and everyone to use the bathroom of the sex they affiliate with.

And under these scenarios, I want option 2. If there's a scenario that goes:

3) Everyone uses the bathroom of their birth gender except those that affiliate and live their lives as the opposite sex in which case they can use either bathroom depending on where they are in the process of being transgender.

I mean, if there is a way to do option 3, I'm listening. But legally, I don't think it can be done. How would you know? How would you enforce it? And so in the end I think the best situation is just to not have a law designating bathroom use.
I think you've got to go with #3 for the protection and privacy or everyone.....otherwise you are protecting the rights of the transgender person over the rights of everyone else, which makes no sense to me.

It's pretty easy to prove whether or not you are actually a transgender person isn't it dreach? I mean....if you are a guy and you say you identify as a female, but you still dress like a guy, look like a guy and identify yourself in every other way as a guy....then sorry, you shouldn't be in there. If that same guy is dressing like a female at work and/or in public, he's got a great case that he's a transgender person. That same guy wouldn't have any problems in the women's bathroom to begin with because nobody in there would see him as anything other than a women....thus it's a non-issue. It only became an issue when Charlotte took it a step beyond that into the realm of innocuous self-identification.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray May 20 2016, 02:45 PM Post #409
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May 20 2016, 01:17 PM
Mr Gray
May 20 2016, 11:29 AM
do you really think it's feasible to have a law where every situation has to be determined on a case by case basis as to whether or not it is "appropriate"...even though what I might think is appropriate is different from what you might think is appropriate? Seriously dreach....you should honestly reconsider that.
Actually, I'm not advocating for any law to be in place. But in terms of dealing with every situation on a case by case basis, I feel that happens now anyways. I don't see how this would be any different. That's how the rules that govern our society were built.
actually that's not how the rules were built. We do have hard and fast rules...not everything is up to interpretation or individual sentiment.
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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brumdog44 May 20 2016, 04:03 PM Post #410
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dreachon
May 20 2016, 01:17 PM
Mr Gray
May 20 2016, 11:29 AM
do you really think it's feasible to have a law where every situation has to be determined on a case by case basis as to whether or not it is "appropriate"...even though what I might think is appropriate is different from what you might think is appropriate? Seriously dreach....you should honestly reconsider that.
Actually, I'm not advocating for any law to be in place. But in terms of dealing with every situation on a case by case basis, I feel that happens now anyways. I don't see how this would be any different. That's how the rules that govern our society were built.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Why deal with every situation on a case by case basis when many foreseeable cases could be dealt with prior to their occurrence?

I certainly disagree with the notion that rues that govern our society were built on 'case by case basis'. Exceptions to rules of law have to first come from established law. Case by case basis have to be grounded in a rule first, otherwise everything has to start from the ground up.

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dreachon May 20 2016, 04:17 PM Post #411
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Mr Gray
May 20 2016, 02:45 PM
dreachon
May 20 2016, 01:27 PM
Mr Gray
May 20 2016, 11:44 AM
If you are a guy, believe you are a guy, and look like a guy, then you go to the guy's restroom
If you are a girl, believe you are a girl, and look like a girl, then you go to the girl's restroom

If you fall into another category, then we need some form of official designation other than "how I identify" or "whatever I feel is appropriate". I'm not saying that has to be a sex change operation and consequential birth certificate change, however it can't be as nebulous as "it's how I identify". You need to be living the life as the other gender if you want to use their bathroom.
Ok. Here we go. I really don't disagree with you much here. But I wonder how we're able to accommodate someone in another category (like a transgender person) without doing some sort of more open policy like I'm saying. I really don't know the answer to that and if there's a better way, I'm all ears. But from my point of view, it comes down to this...

1) Either you force the transgender community to use a bathroom of the sex they don't affiliate with.

2) You have to allow them and everyone to use the bathroom of the sex they affiliate with.

And under these scenarios, I want option 2. If there's a scenario that goes:

3) Everyone uses the bathroom of their birth gender except those that affiliate and live their lives as the opposite sex in which case they can use either bathroom depending on where they are in the process of being transgender.

I mean, if there is a way to do option 3, I'm listening. But legally, I don't think it can be done. How would you know? How would you enforce it? And so in the end I think the best situation is just to not have a law designating bathroom use.
I think you've got to go with #3 for the protection and privacy or everyone.....otherwise you are protecting the rights of the transgender person over the rights of everyone else, which makes no sense to me.

It's pretty easy to prove whether or not you are actually a transgender person isn't it dreach? I mean....if you are a guy and you say you identify as a female, but you still dress like a guy, look like a guy and identify yourself in every other way as a guy....then sorry, you shouldn't be in there. If that same guy is dressing like a female at work and/or in public, he's got a great case that he's a transgender person. That same guy wouldn't have any problems in the women's bathroom to begin with because nobody in there would see him as anything other than a women....thus it's a non-issue. It only became an issue when Charlotte took it a step beyond that into the realm of innocuous self-identification.
But how do you make #3 work legally in real life without simply stating, "those who identify as the opposite gender can use the other bathroom." Then anyone who says they identify as the opposite gender can use the other bathroom and that is the same as people simply using whatever bathroom they're comfortable with.
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dreachon May 20 2016, 04:20 PM Post #412
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brumdog44
May 20 2016, 04:03 PM
dreachon
May 20 2016, 01:17 PM
Mr Gray
May 20 2016, 11:29 AM
do you really think it's feasible to have a law where every situation has to be determined on a case by case basis as to whether or not it is "appropriate"...even though what I might think is appropriate is different from what you might think is appropriate? Seriously dreach....you should honestly reconsider that.
Actually, I'm not advocating for any law to be in place. But in terms of dealing with every situation on a case by case basis, I feel that happens now anyways. I don't see how this would be any different. That's how the rules that govern our society were built.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Why deal with every situation on a case by case basis when many foreseeable cases could be dealt with prior to their occurrence?

I certainly disagree with the notion that rues that govern our society were built on 'case by case basis'. Exceptions to rules of law have to first come from established law. Case by case basis have to be grounded in a rule first, otherwise everything has to start from the ground up.

So what's the law then? You and aaron keep shooting down every notion but have yet to actually provide a tangible solution. So let's hear it.

As for rules of society being decided case by case, that's absolutely how it happens. Why are people not allowed to walk around naked? Because eventually society deemed that inappropriate and when someone did it they then made it a law. Pretty much any law you can think of originated from someone taking the absence of a law to the extreme, evoking a legal reaction.
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Mr Gray May 20 2016, 04:23 PM Post #413
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dreachon
May 20 2016, 04:17 PM
Mr Gray
May 20 2016, 02:45 PM
dreachon
May 20 2016, 01:27 PM
Mr Gray
May 20 2016, 11:44 AM
If you are a guy, believe you are a guy, and look like a guy, then you go to the guy's restroom
If you are a girl, believe you are a girl, and look like a girl, then you go to the girl's restroom

If you fall into another category, then we need some form of official designation other than "how I identify" or "whatever I feel is appropriate". I'm not saying that has to be a sex change operation and consequential birth certificate change, however it can't be as nebulous as "it's how I identify". You need to be living the life as the other gender if you want to use their bathroom.
Ok. Here we go. I really don't disagree with you much here. But I wonder how we're able to accommodate someone in another category (like a transgender person) without doing some sort of more open policy like I'm saying. I really don't know the answer to that and if there's a better way, I'm all ears. But from my point of view, it comes down to this...

1) Either you force the transgender community to use a bathroom of the sex they don't affiliate with.

2) You have to allow them and everyone to use the bathroom of the sex they affiliate with.

And under these scenarios, I want option 2. If there's a scenario that goes:

3) Everyone uses the bathroom of their birth gender except those that affiliate and live their lives as the opposite sex in which case they can use either bathroom depending on where they are in the process of being transgender.

I mean, if there is a way to do option 3, I'm listening. But legally, I don't think it can be done. How would you know? How would you enforce it? And so in the end I think the best situation is just to not have a law designating bathroom use.
I think you've got to go with #3 for the protection and privacy or everyone.....otherwise you are protecting the rights of the transgender person over the rights of everyone else, which makes no sense to me.

It's pretty easy to prove whether or not you are actually a transgender person isn't it dreach? I mean....if you are a guy and you say you identify as a female, but you still dress like a guy, look like a guy and identify yourself in every other way as a guy....then sorry, you shouldn't be in there. If that same guy is dressing like a female at work and/or in public, he's got a great case that he's a transgender person. That same guy wouldn't have any problems in the women's bathroom to begin with because nobody in there would see him as anything other than a women....thus it's a non-issue. It only became an issue when Charlotte took it a step beyond that into the realm of innocuous self-identification.
But how do you make #3 work legally in real life without simply stating, "those who identify as the opposite gender can use the other bathroom." Then anyone who says they identify as the opposite gender can use the other bathroom and that is the same as people simply using whatever bathroom they're comfortable with.
As I said, they would need to show that they are in fact living their life as a person of the opposite sex. If you are a guy, and your dress like a guy and look like a guy and live your life like a guy, that does not qualify you to suddenly claim that you identify as a woman and enter the woman's restroom.
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray May 20 2016, 04:23 PM Post #414
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dreachon
May 20 2016, 04:20 PM
brumdog44
May 20 2016, 04:03 PM
dreachon
May 20 2016, 01:17 PM
Mr Gray
May 20 2016, 11:29 AM
do you really think it's feasible to have a law where every situation has to be determined on a case by case basis as to whether or not it is "appropriate"...even though what I might think is appropriate is different from what you might think is appropriate? Seriously dreach....you should honestly reconsider that.
Actually, I'm not advocating for any law to be in place. But in terms of dealing with every situation on a case by case basis, I feel that happens now anyways. I don't see how this would be any different. That's how the rules that govern our society were built.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Why deal with every situation on a case by case basis when many foreseeable cases could be dealt with prior to their occurrence?

I certainly disagree with the notion that rues that govern our society were built on 'case by case basis'. Exceptions to rules of law have to first come from established law. Case by case basis have to be grounded in a rule first, otherwise everything has to start from the ground up.

So what's the law then? You and aaron keep shooting down every notion but have yet to actually provide a tangible solution. So let's hear it.

As for rules of society being decided case by case, that's absolutely how it happens. Why are people not allowed to walk around naked? Because eventually society deemed that inappropriate and when someone did it they then made it a law. Pretty much any law you can think of originated from someone taking the absence of a law to the extreme, evoking a legal reaction.
I have actually provided a tangible solution three times now
Posted Image
The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
dreachon May 20 2016, 04:32 PM Post #415
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Mr Gray
May 20 2016, 04:23 PM
dreachon
May 20 2016, 04:17 PM
Mr Gray
May 20 2016, 02:45 PM
dreachon
May 20 2016, 01:27 PM
Mr Gray
May 20 2016, 11:44 AM
If you are a guy, believe you are a guy, and look like a guy, then you go to the guy's restroom
If you are a girl, believe you are a girl, and look like a girl, then you go to the girl's restroom

If you fall into another category, then we need some form of official designation other than "how I identify" or "whatever I feel is appropriate". I'm not saying that has to be a sex change operation and consequential birth certificate change, however it can't be as nebulous as "it's how I identify". You need to be living the life as the other gender if you want to use their bathroom.
Ok. Here we go. I really don't disagree with you much here. But I wonder how we're able to accommodate someone in another category (like a transgender person) without doing some sort of more open policy like I'm saying. I really don't know the answer to that and if there's a better way, I'm all ears. But from my point of view, it comes down to this...

1) Either you force the transgender community to use a bathroom of the sex they don't affiliate with.

2) You have to allow them and everyone to use the bathroom of the sex they affiliate with.

And under these scenarios, I want option 2. If there's a scenario that goes:

3) Everyone uses the bathroom of their birth gender except those that affiliate and live their lives as the opposite sex in which case they can use either bathroom depending on where they are in the process of being transgender.

I mean, if there is a way to do option 3, I'm listening. But legally, I don't think it can be done. How would you know? How would you enforce it? And so in the end I think the best situation is just to not have a law designating bathroom use.
I think you've got to go with #3 for the protection and privacy or everyone.....otherwise you are protecting the rights of the transgender person over the rights of everyone else, which makes no sense to me.

It's pretty easy to prove whether or not you are actually a transgender person isn't it dreach? I mean....if you are a guy and you say you identify as a female, but you still dress like a guy, look like a guy and identify yourself in every other way as a guy....then sorry, you shouldn't be in there. If that same guy is dressing like a female at work and/or in public, he's got a great case that he's a transgender person. That same guy wouldn't have any problems in the women's bathroom to begin with because nobody in there would see him as anything other than a women....thus it's a non-issue. It only became an issue when Charlotte took it a step beyond that into the realm of innocuous self-identification.
But how do you make #3 work legally in real life without simply stating, "those who identify as the opposite gender can use the other bathroom." Then anyone who says they identify as the opposite gender can use the other bathroom and that is the same as people simply using whatever bathroom they're comfortable with.
As I said, they would need to show that they are in fact living their life as a person of the opposite sex. If you are a guy, and your dress like a guy and look like a guy and live your life like a guy, that does not qualify you to suddenly claim that you identify as a woman and enter the woman's restroom.
Show who? How? Who polices this? If I want to claim I live as a woman and walk into a women's restroom, who tells me I'm not allowed there? Your "solution" sounds exactly like mine, except having the language in there I guess makes you feel better about it or something.
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brumdog44 May 20 2016, 04:56 PM Post #416
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May 20 2016, 04:32 PM
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May 20 2016, 04:23 PM
dreachon
May 20 2016, 04:17 PM
Mr Gray
May 20 2016, 02:45 PM
dreachon
May 20 2016, 01:27 PM
Mr Gray
May 20 2016, 11:44 AM
If you are a guy, believe you are a guy, and look like a guy, then you go to the guy's restroom
If you are a girl, believe you are a girl, and look like a girl, then you go to the girl's restroom

If you fall into another category, then we need some form of official designation other than "how I identify" or "whatever I feel is appropriate". I'm not saying that has to be a sex change operation and consequential birth certificate change, however it can't be as nebulous as "it's how I identify". You need to be living the life as the other gender if you want to use their bathroom.
Ok. Here we go. I really don't disagree with you much here. But I wonder how we're able to accommodate someone in another category (like a transgender person) without doing some sort of more open policy like I'm saying. I really don't know the answer to that and if there's a better way, I'm all ears. But from my point of view, it comes down to this...

1) Either you force the transgender community to use a bathroom of the sex they don't affiliate with.

2) You have to allow them and everyone to use the bathroom of the sex they affiliate with.

And under these scenarios, I want option 2. If there's a scenario that goes:

3) Everyone uses the bathroom of their birth gender except those that affiliate and live their lives as the opposite sex in which case they can use either bathroom depending on where they are in the process of being transgender.

I mean, if there is a way to do option 3, I'm listening. But legally, I don't think it can be done. How would you know? How would you enforce it? And so in the end I think the best situation is just to not have a law designating bathroom use.
I think you've got to go with #3 for the protection and privacy or everyone.....otherwise you are protecting the rights of the transgender person over the rights of everyone else, which makes no sense to me.

It's pretty easy to prove whether or not you are actually a transgender person isn't it dreach? I mean....if you are a guy and you say you identify as a female, but you still dress like a guy, look like a guy and identify yourself in every other way as a guy....then sorry, you shouldn't be in there. If that same guy is dressing like a female at work and/or in public, he's got a great case that he's a transgender person. That same guy wouldn't have any problems in the women's bathroom to begin with because nobody in there would see him as anything other than a women....thus it's a non-issue. It only became an issue when Charlotte took it a step beyond that into the realm of innocuous self-identification.
But how do you make #3 work legally in real life without simply stating, "those who identify as the opposite gender can use the other bathroom." Then anyone who says they identify as the opposite gender can use the other bathroom and that is the same as people simply using whatever bathroom they're comfortable with.
As I said, they would need to show that they are in fact living their life as a person of the opposite sex. If you are a guy, and your dress like a guy and look like a guy and live your life like a guy, that does not qualify you to suddenly claim that you identify as a woman and enter the woman's restroom.
Show who? How? Who polices this? If I want to claim I live as a woman and walk into a women's restroom, who tells me I'm not allowed there? Your "solution" sounds exactly like mine, except having the language in there I guess makes you feel better about it or something.
When was the last time you saw someone arrested or ticketed for jaywalking? The assumption that there exists the ability to police something illegally every time it happens is not necessary for a law's creation.
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sirbrianwilson May 20 2016, 05:06 PM Post #417
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May 20 2016, 04:56 PM
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May 20 2016, 04:32 PM
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dreachon
May 20 2016, 04:17 PM
Mr Gray
May 20 2016, 02:45 PM
dreachon
May 20 2016, 01:27 PM
Mr Gray
May 20 2016, 11:44 AM
If you are a guy, believe you are a guy, and look like a guy, then you go to the guy's restroom
If you are a girl, believe you are a girl, and look like a girl, then you go to the girl's restroom

If you fall into another category, then we need some form of official designation other than "how I identify" or "whatever I feel is appropriate". I'm not saying that has to be a sex change operation and consequential birth certificate change, however it can't be as nebulous as "it's how I identify". You need to be living the life as the other gender if you want to use their bathroom.
Ok. Here we go. I really don't disagree with you much here. But I wonder how we're able to accommodate someone in another category (like a transgender person) without doing some sort of more open policy like I'm saying. I really don't know the answer to that and if there's a better way, I'm all ears. But from my point of view, it comes down to this...

1) Either you force the transgender community to use a bathroom of the sex they don't affiliate with.

2) You have to allow them and everyone to use the bathroom of the sex they affiliate with.

And under these scenarios, I want option 2. If there's a scenario that goes:

3) Everyone uses the bathroom of their birth gender except those that affiliate and live their lives as the opposite sex in which case they can use either bathroom depending on where they are in the process of being transgender.

I mean, if there is a way to do option 3, I'm listening. But legally, I don't think it can be done. How would you know? How would you enforce it? And so in the end I think the best situation is just to not have a law designating bathroom use.
I think you've got to go with #3 for the protection and privacy or everyone.....otherwise you are protecting the rights of the transgender person over the rights of everyone else, which makes no sense to me.

It's pretty easy to prove whether or not you are actually a transgender person isn't it dreach? I mean....if you are a guy and you say you identify as a female, but you still dress like a guy, look like a guy and identify yourself in every other way as a guy....then sorry, you shouldn't be in there. If that same guy is dressing like a female at work and/or in public, he's got a great case that he's a transgender person. That same guy wouldn't have any problems in the women's bathroom to begin with because nobody in there would see him as anything other than a women....thus it's a non-issue. It only became an issue when Charlotte took it a step beyond that into the realm of innocuous self-identification.
But how do you make #3 work legally in real life without simply stating, "those who identify as the opposite gender can use the other bathroom." Then anyone who says they identify as the opposite gender can use the other bathroom and that is the same as people simply using whatever bathroom they're comfortable with.
As I said, they would need to show that they are in fact living their life as a person of the opposite sex. If you are a guy, and your dress like a guy and look like a guy and live your life like a guy, that does not qualify you to suddenly claim that you identify as a woman and enter the woman's restroom.
Show who? How? Who polices this? If I want to claim I live as a woman and walk into a women's restroom, who tells me I'm not allowed there? Your "solution" sounds exactly like mine, except having the language in there I guess makes you feel better about it or something.
When was the last time you saw someone arrested or ticketed for jaywalking? The assumption that there exists the ability to police something illegally every time it happens is not necessary for a law's creation.
But with jaywalking, you can prove it because you witnessed it happen. That's not the case in this situation. Just let these folks pee in peace...this isn't the route to address sexual assault and peeping toms. That's a completely different issue. This law does not prevent creeps from being creepy. The Charlotte law does not enable them, as their creepy behavior is already illegal.
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Mr Gray May 20 2016, 05:19 PM Post #418
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Mr Gray
May 20 2016, 11:44 AM
If you are a guy, believe you are a guy, and look like a guy, then you go to the guy's restroom
If you are a girl, believe you are a girl, and look like a girl, then you go to the girl's restroom

If you fall into another category, then we need some form of official designation other than "how I identify" or "whatever I feel is appropriate". I'm not saying that has to be a sex change operation and consequential birth certificate change, however it can't be as nebulous as "it's how I identify". You need to be living the life as the other gender if you want to use their bathroom.
Ok. Here we go. I really don't disagree with you much here. But I wonder how we're able to accommodate someone in another category (like a transgender person) without doing some sort of more open policy like I'm saying. I really don't know the answer to that and if there's a better way, I'm all ears. But from my point of view, it comes down to this...

1) Either you force the transgender community to use a bathroom of the sex they don't affiliate with.

2) You have to allow them and everyone to use the bathroom of the sex they affiliate with.

And under these scenarios, I want option 2. If there's a scenario that goes:

3) Everyone uses the bathroom of their birth gender except those that affiliate and live their lives as the opposite sex in which case they can use either bathroom depending on where they are in the process of being transgender.

I mean, if there is a way to do option 3, I'm listening. But legally, I don't think it can be done. How would you know? How would you enforce it? And so in the end I think the best situation is just to not have a law designating bathroom use.
I think you've got to go with #3 for the protection and privacy or everyone.....otherwise you are protecting the rights of the transgender person over the rights of everyone else, which makes no sense to me.

It's pretty easy to prove whether or not you are actually a transgender person isn't it dreach? I mean....if you are a guy and you say you identify as a female, but you still dress like a guy, look like a guy and identify yourself in every other way as a guy....then sorry, you shouldn't be in there. If that same guy is dressing like a female at work and/or in public, he's got a great case that he's a transgender person. That same guy wouldn't have any problems in the women's bathroom to begin with because nobody in there would see him as anything other than a women....thus it's a non-issue. It only became an issue when Charlotte took it a step beyond that into the realm of innocuous self-identification.
But how do you make #3 work legally in real life without simply stating, "those who identify as the opposite gender can use the other bathroom." Then anyone who says they identify as the opposite gender can use the other bathroom and that is the same as people simply using whatever bathroom they're comfortable with.
As I said, they would need to show that they are in fact living their life as a person of the opposite sex. If you are a guy, and your dress like a guy and look like a guy and live your life like a guy, that does not qualify you to suddenly claim that you identify as a woman and enter the woman's restroom.
Show who? How? Who polices this? If I want to claim I live as a woman and walk into a women's restroom, who tells me I'm not allowed there? Your "solution" sounds exactly like mine, except having the language in there I guess makes you feel better about it or something.
For the legit trans people it requires no policing. If they are truly trans, and use the bathroom opposite of their sex, it's a non issue because nobody knows otherwise. If someone were to raise a stink, they would have no case of the trans is shown to actually be a trans.

On the other hand, if some non trans guy goes into the women's bathroom and I escort him out because he doesn't belong in there with mine or your daughter, I'm within my rights to do so. He can't just say he identifies as a woman.

My solution is near perfect. It allows the true trans to be comfortable and legal, while preventing the bad folks from using the law to put themselves in a spot which they shouldn't be that makes most of us rightfully uncomfortable.
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sirbrianwilson May 20 2016, 05:29 PM Post #419
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May 20 2016, 04:17 PM
Mr Gray
May 20 2016, 02:45 PM
dreachon
May 20 2016, 01:27 PM
Mr Gray
May 20 2016, 11:44 AM
If you are a guy, believe you are a guy, and look like a guy, then you go to the guy's restroom
If you are a girl, believe you are a girl, and look like a girl, then you go to the girl's restroom

If you fall into another category, then we need some form of official designation other than "how I identify" or "whatever I feel is appropriate". I'm not saying that has to be a sex change operation and consequential birth certificate change, however it can't be as nebulous as "it's how I identify". You need to be living the life as the other gender if you want to use their bathroom.
Ok. Here we go. I really don't disagree with you much here. But I wonder how we're able to accommodate someone in another category (like a transgender person) without doing some sort of more open policy like I'm saying. I really don't know the answer to that and if there's a better way, I'm all ears. But from my point of view, it comes down to this...

1) Either you force the transgender community to use a bathroom of the sex they don't affiliate with.

2) You have to allow them and everyone to use the bathroom of the sex they affiliate with.

And under these scenarios, I want option 2. If there's a scenario that goes:

3) Everyone uses the bathroom of their birth gender except those that affiliate and live their lives as the opposite sex in which case they can use either bathroom depending on where they are in the process of being transgender.

I mean, if there is a way to do option 3, I'm listening. But legally, I don't think it can be done. How would you know? How would you enforce it? And so in the end I think the best situation is just to not have a law designating bathroom use.
I think you've got to go with #3 for the protection and privacy or everyone.....otherwise you are protecting the rights of the transgender person over the rights of everyone else, which makes no sense to me.

It's pretty easy to prove whether or not you are actually a transgender person isn't it dreach? I mean....if you are a guy and you say you identify as a female, but you still dress like a guy, look like a guy and identify yourself in every other way as a guy....then sorry, you shouldn't be in there. If that same guy is dressing like a female at work and/or in public, he's got a great case that he's a transgender person. That same guy wouldn't have any problems in the women's bathroom to begin with because nobody in there would see him as anything other than a women....thus it's a non-issue. It only became an issue when Charlotte took it a step beyond that into the realm of innocuous self-identification.
But how do you make #3 work legally in real life without simply stating, "those who identify as the opposite gender can use the other bathroom." Then anyone who says they identify as the opposite gender can use the other bathroom and that is the same as people simply using whatever bathroom they're comfortable with.
As I said, they would need to show that they are in fact living their life as a person of the opposite sex. If you are a guy, and your dress like a guy and look like a guy and live your life like a guy, that does not qualify you to suddenly claim that you identify as a woman and enter the woman's restroom.
Show who? How? Who polices this? If I want to claim I live as a woman and walk into a women's restroom, who tells me I'm not allowed there? Your "solution" sounds exactly like mine, except having the language in there I guess makes you feel better about it or something.
For the legit trans people it requires no policing. If they are truly trans, and use the bathroom opposite of their sex, it's a non issue because nobody knows otherwise. If someone were to raise a stink, they would have no case of the trans is shown to actually be a trans.

On the other hand, if some non trans guy goes into the women's bathroom and I escort him out because he doesn't belong in there with mine or your daughter, I'm within my rights to do so. He can't just say he identifies as a woman.

My solution is near perfect. It allows the true trans to be comfortable and legal, while preventing the bad folks from using the law to put themselves in a spot which they shouldn't be that makes most of us rightfully uncomfortable.
This is pretty weird, but I think we are pretty close to agreement on this issue. It is a matter of self policing. Although I do believe federal protections should be in place for the trans community.
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dreachon May 20 2016, 06:50 PM Post #420
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For the legit trans people it requires no policing. If they are truly trans, and use the bathroom opposite of their sex, it's a non issue because nobody knows otherwise. If someone were to raise a stink, they would have no case of the trans is shown to actually be a trans.

On the other hand, if some non trans guy goes into the women's bathroom and I escort him out because he doesn't belong in there with mine or your daughter, I'm within my rights to do so. He can't just say he identifies as a woman.

My solution is near perfect. It allows the true trans to be comfortable and legal, while preventing the bad folks from using the law to put themselves in a spot which they shouldn't be that makes most of us rightfully uncomfortable.
I think this what everyone WANTS to happen. I'm just not convinced we can actually do it through a law. The problem lies in the fact that you (and other patrons) are set as the judge of another person's sexual identity. I mean...how can we justify that? Maybe I look like a chubby man, but have started taking estrogen hormones. And those aren't man boobs, but are actual boobs. So it should be your decision whether I get to use the bathroom or not? I just don't know.

Here's an interesting example. Woman in a women's bathroom gets mistaken for a trans man and harassed. http://www.newstimes.com/local/article/Woman-mistaken-for-transgender-harassed-in-7471666.php
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