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Mississippi & NC religious freedom laws
Tweet Topic Started: Apr 6 2016, 01:24 PM (2,710 Views)
eelbor May 20 2016, 06:54 PM Post #421
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May 20 2016, 04:23 PM
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May 20 2016, 04:17 PM
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May 20 2016, 02:45 PM
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May 20 2016, 01:27 PM
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May 20 2016, 11:44 AM
If you are a guy, believe you are a guy, and look like a guy, then you go to the guy's restroom
If you are a girl, believe you are a girl, and look like a girl, then you go to the girl's restroom

If you fall into another category, then we need some form of official designation other than "how I identify" or "whatever I feel is appropriate". I'm not saying that has to be a sex change operation and consequential birth certificate change, however it can't be as nebulous as "it's how I identify". You need to be living the life as the other gender if you want to use their bathroom.
Ok. Here we go. I really don't disagree with you much here. But I wonder how we're able to accommodate someone in another category (like a transgender person) without doing some sort of more open policy like I'm saying. I really don't know the answer to that and if there's a better way, I'm all ears. But from my point of view, it comes down to this...

1) Either you force the transgender community to use a bathroom of the sex they don't affiliate with.

2) You have to allow them and everyone to use the bathroom of the sex they affiliate with.

And under these scenarios, I want option 2. If there's a scenario that goes:

3) Everyone uses the bathroom of their birth gender except those that affiliate and live their lives as the opposite sex in which case they can use either bathroom depending on where they are in the process of being transgender.

I mean, if there is a way to do option 3, I'm listening. But legally, I don't think it can be done. How would you know? How would you enforce it? And so in the end I think the best situation is just to not have a law designating bathroom use.
I think you've got to go with #3 for the protection and privacy or everyone.....otherwise you are protecting the rights of the transgender person over the rights of everyone else, which makes no sense to me.

It's pretty easy to prove whether or not you are actually a transgender person isn't it dreach? I mean....if you are a guy and you say you identify as a female, but you still dress like a guy, look like a guy and identify yourself in every other way as a guy....then sorry, you shouldn't be in there. If that same guy is dressing like a female at work and/or in public, he's got a great case that he's a transgender person. That same guy wouldn't have any problems in the women's bathroom to begin with because nobody in there would see him as anything other than a women....thus it's a non-issue. It only became an issue when Charlotte took it a step beyond that into the realm of innocuous self-identification.
But how do you make #3 work legally in real life without simply stating, "those who identify as the opposite gender can use the other bathroom." Then anyone who says they identify as the opposite gender can use the other bathroom and that is the same as people simply using whatever bathroom they're comfortable with.
As I said, they would need to show that they are in fact living their life as a person of the opposite sex. If you are a guy, and your dress like a guy and look like a guy and live your life like a guy, that does not qualify you to suddenly claim that you identify as a woman and enter the woman's restroom.
Show who? How? Who polices this? If I want to claim I live as a woman and walk into a women's restroom, who tells me I'm not allowed there? Your "solution" sounds exactly like mine, except having the language in there I guess makes you feel better about it or something.
When was the last time you saw someone arrested or ticketed for jaywalking? The assumption that there exists the ability to police something illegally every time it happens is not necessary for a law's creation.
I was ticketed for jaywalking during my days at Purdue. I did not fight it or complain, much less of ticket than the public intoxication I was probably guilty of.
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sirbrianwilson May 20 2016, 07:35 PM Post #422
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For the legit trans people it requires no policing. If they are truly trans, and use the bathroom opposite of their sex, it's a non issue because nobody knows otherwise. If someone were to raise a stink, they would have no case of the trans is shown to actually be a trans.

On the other hand, if some non trans guy goes into the women's bathroom and I escort him out because he doesn't belong in there with mine or your daughter, I'm within my rights to do so. He can't just say he identifies as a woman.

My solution is near perfect. It allows the true trans to be comfortable and legal, while preventing the bad folks from using the law to put themselves in a spot which they shouldn't be that makes most of us rightfully uncomfortable.
I think this what everyone WANTS to happen. I'm just not convinced we can actually do it through a law. The problem lies in the fact that you (and other patrons) are set as the judge of another person's sexual identity. I mean...how can we justify that? Maybe I look like a chubby man, but have started taking estrogen hormones. And those aren't man boobs, but are actual boobs. So it should be your decision whether I get to use the bathroom or not? I just don't know.

Here's an interesting example. Woman in a women's bathroom gets mistaken for a trans man and harassed. http://www.newstimes.com/local/article/Woman-mistaken-for-transgender-harassed-in-7471666.php
That example you posted via the link is exactly what I've been talking about this whole time. That person wasn't causing any trouble yet the people around them created a fictitious situation which led to a violation of that individual's civil rights.

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sirbrianwilson May 20 2016, 07:36 PM Post #423
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May 20 2016, 06:54 PM
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May 20 2016, 04:32 PM
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May 20 2016, 02:45 PM
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May 20 2016, 01:27 PM
Mr Gray
May 20 2016, 11:44 AM
If you are a guy, believe you are a guy, and look like a guy, then you go to the guy's restroom
If you are a girl, believe you are a girl, and look like a girl, then you go to the girl's restroom

If you fall into another category, then we need some form of official designation other than "how I identify" or "whatever I feel is appropriate". I'm not saying that has to be a sex change operation and consequential birth certificate change, however it can't be as nebulous as "it's how I identify". You need to be living the life as the other gender if you want to use their bathroom.
Ok. Here we go. I really don't disagree with you much here. But I wonder how we're able to accommodate someone in another category (like a transgender person) without doing some sort of more open policy like I'm saying. I really don't know the answer to that and if there's a better way, I'm all ears. But from my point of view, it comes down to this...

1) Either you force the transgender community to use a bathroom of the sex they don't affiliate with.

2) You have to allow them and everyone to use the bathroom of the sex they affiliate with.

And under these scenarios, I want option 2. If there's a scenario that goes:

3) Everyone uses the bathroom of their birth gender except those that affiliate and live their lives as the opposite sex in which case they can use either bathroom depending on where they are in the process of being transgender.

I mean, if there is a way to do option 3, I'm listening. But legally, I don't think it can be done. How would you know? How would you enforce it? And so in the end I think the best situation is just to not have a law designating bathroom use.
I think you've got to go with #3 for the protection and privacy or everyone.....otherwise you are protecting the rights of the transgender person over the rights of everyone else, which makes no sense to me.

It's pretty easy to prove whether or not you are actually a transgender person isn't it dreach? I mean....if you are a guy and you say you identify as a female, but you still dress like a guy, look like a guy and identify yourself in every other way as a guy....then sorry, you shouldn't be in there. If that same guy is dressing like a female at work and/or in public, he's got a great case that he's a transgender person. That same guy wouldn't have any problems in the women's bathroom to begin with because nobody in there would see him as anything other than a women....thus it's a non-issue. It only became an issue when Charlotte took it a step beyond that into the realm of innocuous self-identification.
But how do you make #3 work legally in real life without simply stating, "those who identify as the opposite gender can use the other bathroom." Then anyone who says they identify as the opposite gender can use the other bathroom and that is the same as people simply using whatever bathroom they're comfortable with.
As I said, they would need to show that they are in fact living their life as a person of the opposite sex. If you are a guy, and your dress like a guy and look like a guy and live your life like a guy, that does not qualify you to suddenly claim that you identify as a woman and enter the woman's restroom.
Show who? How? Who polices this? If I want to claim I live as a woman and walk into a women's restroom, who tells me I'm not allowed there? Your "solution" sounds exactly like mine, except having the language in there I guess makes you feel better about it or something.
When was the last time you saw someone arrested or ticketed for jaywalking? The assumption that there exists the ability to police something illegally every time it happens is not necessary for a law's creation.
I was ticketed for jaywalking during my days at Purdue. I did not fight it or complain, much less of ticket than the public intoxication I was probably guilty of.
Public intoxication...another completely backwards law.
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Mr Gray May 20 2016, 09:33 PM Post #424
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For the legit trans people it requires no policing. If they are truly trans, and use the bathroom opposite of their sex, it's a non issue because nobody knows otherwise. If someone were to raise a stink, they would have no case of the trans is shown to actually be a trans.

On the other hand, if some non trans guy goes into the women's bathroom and I escort him out because he doesn't belong in there with mine or your daughter, I'm within my rights to do so. He can't just say he identifies as a woman.

My solution is near perfect. It allows the true trans to be comfortable and legal, while preventing the bad folks from using the law to put themselves in a spot which they shouldn't be that makes most of us rightfully uncomfortable.
I think this what everyone WANTS to happen. I'm just not convinced we can actually do it through a law. The problem lies in the fact that you (and other patrons) are set as the judge of another person's sexual identity. I mean...how can we justify that? Maybe I look like a chubby man, but have started taking estrogen hormones. And those aren't man boobs, but are actual boobs. So it should be your decision whether I get to use the bathroom or not? I just don't know.

Here's an interesting example. Woman in a women's bathroom gets mistaken for a trans man and harassed. http://www.newstimes.com/local/article/Woman-mistaken-for-transgender-harassed-in-7471666.php
It's really much simpler than you're making it and drastically simpler than your theory of allowing for thousands of definitions of "appropriate" to determine the law. In your example of the chubby dude who's taking estrogen. So he's trans right? If so, he will look like a women and be living his life as a women, so he's allowed in the women's bathroom and won't be disturbed because people think he's a women anyway.

In the story you posted this would be a violation and that girl would have recourse for unjust harassment. This women apparently looked like a man......this isn't a trans situation.

I really think you are over complicating the solution in a subconscious effort to disagree with me because of a stereotype you think I fall into.
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Mr Gray May 20 2016, 09:34 PM Post #425
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May 20 2016, 07:36 PM
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May 20 2016, 01:27 PM
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May 20 2016, 11:44 AM
If you are a guy, believe you are a guy, and look like a guy, then you go to the guy's restroom
If you are a girl, believe you are a girl, and look like a girl, then you go to the girl's restroom

If you fall into another category, then we need some form of official designation other than "how I identify" or "whatever I feel is appropriate". I'm not saying that has to be a sex change operation and consequential birth certificate change, however it can't be as nebulous as "it's how I identify". You need to be living the life as the other gender if you want to use their bathroom.
Ok. Here we go. I really don't disagree with you much here. But I wonder how we're able to accommodate someone in another category (like a transgender person) without doing some sort of more open policy like I'm saying. I really don't know the answer to that and if there's a better way, I'm all ears. But from my point of view, it comes down to this...

1) Either you force the transgender community to use a bathroom of the sex they don't affiliate with.

2) You have to allow them and everyone to use the bathroom of the sex they affiliate with.

And under these scenarios, I want option 2. If there's a scenario that goes:

3) Everyone uses the bathroom of their birth gender except those that affiliate and live their lives as the opposite sex in which case they can use either bathroom depending on where they are in the process of being transgender.

I mean, if there is a way to do option 3, I'm listening. But legally, I don't think it can be done. How would you know? How would you enforce it? And so in the end I think the best situation is just to not have a law designating bathroom use.
I think you've got to go with #3 for the protection and privacy or everyone.....otherwise you are protecting the rights of the transgender person over the rights of everyone else, which makes no sense to me.

It's pretty easy to prove whether or not you are actually a transgender person isn't it dreach? I mean....if you are a guy and you say you identify as a female, but you still dress like a guy, look like a guy and identify yourself in every other way as a guy....then sorry, you shouldn't be in there. If that same guy is dressing like a female at work and/or in public, he's got a great case that he's a transgender person. That same guy wouldn't have any problems in the women's bathroom to begin with because nobody in there would see him as anything other than a women....thus it's a non-issue. It only became an issue when Charlotte took it a step beyond that into the realm of innocuous self-identification.
But how do you make #3 work legally in real life without simply stating, "those who identify as the opposite gender can use the other bathroom." Then anyone who says they identify as the opposite gender can use the other bathroom and that is the same as people simply using whatever bathroom they're comfortable with.
As I said, they would need to show that they are in fact living their life as a person of the opposite sex. If you are a guy, and your dress like a guy and look like a guy and live your life like a guy, that does not qualify you to suddenly claim that you identify as a woman and enter the woman's restroom.
Show who? How? Who polices this? If I want to claim I live as a woman and walk into a women's restroom, who tells me I'm not allowed there? Your "solution" sounds exactly like mine, except having the language in there I guess makes you feel better about it or something.
When was the last time you saw someone arrested or ticketed for jaywalking? The assumption that there exists the ability to police something illegally every time it happens is not necessary for a law's creation.
I was ticketed for jaywalking during my days at Purdue. I did not fight it or complain, much less of ticket than the public intoxication I was probably guilty of.
Public intoxication...another completely backwards law.
It's usually a solution in search of a problem.
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brumdog44 May 20 2016, 09:49 PM Post #426
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The problem I have is that providing unisex bathrooms is being deemed to not go far enough. Sorry, but that's not right.

1. Accommodations have been made.

2. If you say that a unisex bathroom can 'out' a transsexual.....that is 10000% beyond the function of what the government is intended to do.

3. The executive order directing public schools to allow transgender students to use the restroom and locker rooms of their choice is creating law and beyond the scope of the executive branch....and instructing states that fail to follow this executive order that federal funding will be pulled from their schools is a dangerous form of blackmail.
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dreachon May 20 2016, 10:46 PM Post #427
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Quote:
 
It's really much simpler than you're making it and drastically simpler than your theory of allowing for thousands of definitions of "appropriate" to determine the law. In your example of the chubby dude who's taking estrogen. So he's trans right? If so, he will look like a women and be living his life as a women, so he's allowed in the women's bathroom and won't be disturbed because people think he's a women anyway.
]

And if he doesn't look like a woman? What if he does look like a woman and someone simply doesn't want him in the bathroom. So they say he doesn't look enough like a woman and they kick him out. If you think all the definitions of "appropriate" are too much, you're creating a situation where the decision on whether someone can use a bathroom becomes a total judgement call by the other people in the bathroom.

Quote:
 
I really think you are over complicating the solution in a subconscious effort to disagree with me because of a stereotype you think I fall into.

I don't even know where this comes from. In this thread I've disagreed with you, Brum and Bri. Maybe hit those psychology books a little harder, Dr. Freud.
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brumdog44 May 21 2016, 07:58 AM Post #428
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Quote:
 
It's really much simpler than you're making it and drastically simpler than your theory of allowing for thousands of definitions of "appropriate" to determine the law. In your example of the chubby dude who's taking estrogen. So he's trans right? If so, he will look like a women and be living his life as a women, so he's allowed in the women's bathroom and won't be disturbed because people think he's a women anyway.
]

And if he doesn't look like a woman? What if he does look like a woman and someone simply doesn't want him in the bathroom. So they say he doesn't look enough like a woman and they kick him out. If you think all the definitions of "appropriate" are too much, you're creating a situation where the decision on whether someone can use a bathroom becomes a total judgement call by the other people in the bathroom.

But you have been in favor of no law being made. With no law, it all comes down to whether or not someone looks like the member of the opposite sex. So the situation you create with no aw is all based on a total judgement call by the people in the bathroom.

This is why I am saying that the thought that not creating any laws dealing with the issue basically means if you look like a man (whether you are or not), you can use the men's restroom and if you look like a woman (whether you are or not), you can use the women's restroom. Operating on the assumption that a every transgender person looks like a member of the opposite sex by their dress and appearance -- particularly the assumption that they do so every day -- simply isn't true.

I can tell you that I know of a half-dozen or so female transgender students (females who identify as male) and whether they use the male or female restroom and whether they felt they looked 'male enough' on a particular day played a huge factor on whether or not they used the male restroom.
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Mr Gray May 21 2016, 08:31 AM Post #429
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Quote:
 
It's really much simpler than you're making it and drastically simpler than your theory of allowing for thousands of definitions of "appropriate" to determine the law. In your example of the chubby dude who's taking estrogen. So he's trans right? If so, he will look like a women and be living his life as a women, so he's allowed in the women's bathroom and won't be disturbed because people think he's a women anyway.
]

And if he doesn't look like a woman? What if he does look like a woman and someone simply doesn't want him in the bathroom. So they say he doesn't look enough like a woman and they kick him out. If you think all the definitions of "appropriate" are too much, you're creating a situation where the decision on whether someone can use a bathroom becomes a total judgement call by the other people in the bathroom.

Quote:
 
I really think you are over complicating the solution in a subconscious effort to disagree with me because of a stereotype you think I fall into.

I don't even know where this comes from. In this thread I've disagreed with you, Brum and Bri. Maybe hit those psychology books a little harder, Dr. Freud.
Dreach if a trans male (meaning biological male) doesn't look like a woman, why would he want to go into the woman's restroom? If safety is the issue then shouldn't be go into the restroom that he best fits into at the time? I mean if he thinks he's a woman but hasn't taken steps to start living his life as a woman then he should still be using the men's restroom. It's a common sense legal approach that works for everyone.

Questionable cases should be very rare, and if a trans man who looks and lives like a woman is kicked out of a woman's restroom, he would have a case for harassment.

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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon May 21 2016, 02:15 PM Post #430
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May 20 2016, 10:46 PM
Quote:
 
It's really much simpler than you're making it and drastically simpler than your theory of allowing for thousands of definitions of "appropriate" to determine the law. In your example of the chubby dude who's taking estrogen. So he's trans right? If so, he will look like a women and be living his life as a women, so he's allowed in the women's bathroom and won't be disturbed because people think he's a women anyway.
]

And if he doesn't look like a woman? What if he does look like a woman and someone simply doesn't want him in the bathroom. So they say he doesn't look enough like a woman and they kick him out. If you think all the definitions of "appropriate" are too much, you're creating a situation where the decision on whether someone can use a bathroom becomes a total judgement call by the other people in the bathroom.

But you have been in favor of no law being made. With no law, it all comes down to whether or not someone looks like the member of the opposite sex. So the situation you create with no aw is all based on a total judgement call by the people in the bathroom.

This is why I am saying that the thought that not creating any laws dealing with the issue basically means if you look like a man (whether you are or not), you can use the men's restroom and if you look like a woman (whether you are or not), you can use the women's restroom. Operating on the assumption that a every transgender person looks like a member of the opposite sex by their dress and appearance -- particularly the assumption that they do so every day -- simply isn't true.

I can tell you that I know of a half-dozen or so female transgender students (females who identify as male) and whether they use the male or female restroom and whether they felt they looked 'male enough' on a particular day played a huge factor on whether or not they used the male restroom.
Here's what I'm struggling with in your and aaron's solution.

1) With no law, someone who looks and lives as the opposite gender can use the opposite bathroom whether other patrons object or not.

2) If you create a law that says someone has to look and live as the opposite gender, other patrons in the bathroom can object under the premise that the person doesn't look enough like that gender, and they can kick the person out.

So let's say we go with option 2, we're now taking a person's right to use the bathroom away from them and putting it in the judgement of the other patrons. Sure, if someone is kicked out of a bathroom they should legally be allowed to use, they can fight it. But how do they fight it? How do I, a transgender person, prove that you, Brumdog, thought I looked enough like a woman? The law is built to be based on YOUR judgement. This is the part I'm struggling with.
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sirbrianwilson May 21 2016, 02:56 PM Post #431
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If we are worried about sexual assault and peeping toms, why don't we address those behaviors instead of worrying about what bathroom trans people use (a group that hasn't been associated with assaulting people in public restrooms). A boy is more likely to be assaulted by a man in a men's restroom than a female is of being assaulted by a man in a women's restroom. Why aren't people focusing on that? Or the fact that it is very uncommon for strangers to commit this crime.

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brumdog44 May 21 2016, 05:01 PM Post #432
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May 21 2016, 02:56 PM
If we are worried about sexual assault and peeping toms, why don't we address those behaviors instead of worrying about what bathroom trans people use (a group that hasn't been associated with assaulting people in public restrooms). A boy is more likely to be assaulted by a man in a men's restroom than a female is of being assaulted by a man in a women's restroom. Why aren't people focusing on that? Or the fact that it is very uncommon for strangers to commit this crime.

Br
If YOU are worried about assault of transgenders using the bathroom based on their physical sex, why not address THAT?
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brumdog44 May 21 2016, 05:04 PM Post #433
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Here's what I'm struggling with in your and aaron's solution.

1) With no law, someone who looks and lives as the opposite gender can use the opposite bathroom whether other patrons object or not.

IMO, you completed ignored why I wrote. Being transgender doesn't mean you can pass for a member of the opposite sex nor does it mean that someone can pass for a member of the opposite sex every day. Therefore, your logic that someone who is transgender using the opposite bathroom assumes that they can pass for a member of the opposite sex. That's a judgement call.
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February 10, 2008
brumdog44
May 21 2016, 05:04 PM
dreachon
May 21 2016, 02:15 PM
Here's what I'm struggling with in your and aaron's solution.

1) With no law, someone who looks and lives as the opposite gender can use the opposite bathroom whether other patrons object or not.

IMO, you completed ignored why I wrote. Being transgender doesn't mean you can pass for a member of the opposite sex nor does it mean that someone can pass for a member of the opposite sex every day. Therefore, your logic that someone who is transgender using the opposite bathroom assumes that they can pass for a member of the opposite sex. That's a judgement call.
I didn't ignore it at all. You're right that it's a judgement call. It's THEIR judgement call. Not the judgement call of someone else in the bathroom. Now what about the rest of my post?
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Mr Gray May 21 2016, 07:45 PM Post #435
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Dreach, if the goal is to make it legal for trans to go to the bathroom opposite of their sex, and my proposal does exactly that, why are you so in favor of instead making it possible for anyone to go to the opposite bathroom? You realize that hurts the case for the trans severely right, because as soon as some creepy dude or teenage boy exploits your law (or lack of), the trans movement is set back decades. You're more anti-trans than I am.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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