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Mississippi & NC religious freedom laws
Tweet Topic Started: Apr 6 2016, 01:24 PM (2,732 Views)
brumdog44 Apr 22 2016, 03:34 PM Post #91
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sirbrianwilson
Apr 22 2016, 02:58 PM
Pretty minor because they didn't happen to you while doing one of the most basic human things. And this is what I'm talking about, the law would force this kind of a situation.
First of all: instead of the all too common 'sigh' response, give logic that disputes what I have said. It's a lazy response that will only force people further from your opinion. I'm open to listening to arguments but have reached a conclusion that is not the same as yours. All you seem to be doing is taking people like me and moving them farther from your opinion.

In terms of allowing transgender people to use the opposite gender bathroom because of increased potential of violence of using the same gender bathroom (something that I dispute is the reality when a transgender female uses a men's bathroom instead of a women's bathroom)....laws IMO should be based on rights, not on what you feel are potential outcomes. Walking alone at night in a dangerous neighborhood probably isn't a good idea......it's a pretty basic thing, though. That said, I'm not for making a law that requires people to only walk at night in safe neighborhoods.
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brumdog44 Apr 22 2016, 03:47 PM Post #92
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Mr Gray
Apr 22 2016, 09:00 AM
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To answer gray's post above: would I want that person in the bathroom with my daughter? No. Am I afraid that with a law like Charlotte's that he is more likely to sexually assault my daughter? Also no.


I agree with the 1st obviously, but I think the 2nd would require a little analysis from people educated in psychology. I have heard it said repeatedly from psychologists that these types of people with sick minds don't think like us....they view women and girls (or boys) differently and something with the dopamine levels in their brain changes with degrees of exposure to these desires....and it continually escalates. So at one point, just looking at a picture of a child and "pleasuring" themselves (sorry to have to put that in there.....I know it's sick, but it is real) satisfies them....and then eventually that isn't enough and they have to see the kids in person at a park or whatever.....and then maybe it's looking at child porn......and eventually none of that is enough and some of them lash out into the realm of assault, because that is the only way to satisfy their sick mind. I think a case can easily be made that increased exposure for these sickos to young girls in private quarters such as a bathroom or changing room fits somewhere in that "escalation" trajectory......that doesn't mean that they would necessarily go in the bathroom to commit assault, but that sort of depends on how sick they are, and what stage they are in.

My point was I don't think that there would necessarily be increased exposure by sexual predators should it become legal for transgenders to go into the opposite gender bathroom -- for instance, the person you posted would obviously never be confused with someone who is transgender and seeing him enter a women's restroom would raise the same flags to anyone seeing him enter regardless of whether it was legal or illegal for him to do so.

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Mr Gray Apr 22 2016, 04:07 PM Post #93
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brumdog44
Apr 22 2016, 03:47 PM
Mr Gray
Apr 22 2016, 09:00 AM
Quote:
 
To answer gray's post above: would I want that person in the bathroom with my daughter? No. Am I afraid that with a law like Charlotte's that he is more likely to sexually assault my daughter? Also no.


I agree with the 1st obviously, but I think the 2nd would require a little analysis from people educated in psychology. I have heard it said repeatedly from psychologists that these types of people with sick minds don't think like us....they view women and girls (or boys) differently and something with the dopamine levels in their brain changes with degrees of exposure to these desires....and it continually escalates. So at one point, just looking at a picture of a child and "pleasuring" themselves (sorry to have to put that in there.....I know it's sick, but it is real) satisfies them....and then eventually that isn't enough and they have to see the kids in person at a park or whatever.....and then maybe it's looking at child porn......and eventually none of that is enough and some of them lash out into the realm of assault, because that is the only way to satisfy their sick mind. I think a case can easily be made that increased exposure for these sickos to young girls in private quarters such as a bathroom or changing room fits somewhere in that "escalation" trajectory......that doesn't mean that they would necessarily go in the bathroom to commit assault, but that sort of depends on how sick they are, and what stage they are in.

My point was I don't think that there would necessarily be increased exposure by sexual predators should it become legal for transgenders to go into the opposite gender bathroom -- for instance, the person you posted would obviously never be confused with someone who is transgender and seeing him enter a women's restroom would raise the same flags to anyone seeing him enter regardless of whether it was legal or illegal for him to do so.

true, but under the law we cannot act on those "flags" and he is free to be in there indulging his sick desires. Yes, it's likely that most women would walk out when seeing him in there, but what about the women already in there doing their business, or changing in a locker room....etc when he walks in? I think it's safe to say that it doesn't decrease our chances of this guy committing a crime....agree?
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dreachon Apr 22 2016, 05:35 PM Post #94
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Can I ask something? Before the Charlotte law saying it's now legal for transgenders to use the opposite bathroom, was it actually illegal for them to do so or was this law merely showing solidarity with the group?
Edited by dreachon, Apr 22 2016, 05:35 PM.
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HoosierLars Apr 22 2016, 05:42 PM Post #95
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sirbrianwilson
Apr 22 2016, 02:58 PM
Pretty minor because they didn't happen to you while doing one of the most basic human things. And this is what I'm talking about, the law would force this kind of a situation.
The situation I cited from the report is a guy dressed like a woman peeing in the urinal. Which restroom should s/he use, the men's or women's. One thing that needs to be factored in is the fact that 99% of sexual predators are men, so laws need to have a bias towards protecting women from them.
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sirbrianwilson Apr 22 2016, 05:48 PM Post #96
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dreachon
Apr 22 2016, 05:35 PM
Can I ask something? Before the Charlotte law saying it's now legal for transgenders to use the opposite bathroom, was it actually illegal for them to do so or was this law merely showing solidarity with the group?
This is where my frustration comes from. Prior to this law AND after this law, there will be creeps and sexual predators. Some will act out and victimize someone, sometimes in a bathroom, which has ALWAYS been illegal. Proponents of this bill argue it's about sexual predators and not trans people, which I find to be absolutely bullshit and extremely coincidental given the national conversation around trans people. These folks have been sharing restrooms with folks of the opposite biological sex for years and years and years without issue. To hear the the argument that trans people are making others uncomfortable really flies in the face of history and is a dangerous thought. Talk to any trans person about where their "danger zones" are and it may open your eyes to the issue. To hear comments about how there is no lgbt targeted violence in North Carolina makes my head explode.

So....yes. SIGH. It's not my problem if people who are finally now coming to the light on these issues (in freaking 2016!) are being pushed away from my opinion (which, turn on the tv, is shared by MANY) based on frustrations being expressed.
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brumdog44 Apr 22 2016, 06:33 PM Post #97
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sirbrianwilson
Apr 22 2016, 05:48 PM
dreachon
Apr 22 2016, 05:35 PM
Can I ask something? Before the Charlotte law saying it's now legal for transgenders to use the opposite bathroom, was it actually illegal for them to do so or was this law merely showing solidarity with the group?
This is where my frustration comes from. Prior to this law AND after this law, there will be creeps and sexual predators. Some will act out and victimize someone, sometimes in a bathroom, which has ALWAYS been illegal. Proponents of this bill argue it's about sexual predators and not trans people, which I find to be absolutely bullshit and extremely coincidental given the national conversation around trans people. These folks have been sharing restrooms with folks of the opposite biological sex for years and years and years without issue. To hear the the argument that trans people are making others uncomfortable really flies in the face of history and is a dangerous thought. Talk to any trans person about where their "danger zones" are and it may open your eyes to the issue. To hear comments about how there is no lgbt targeted violence in North Carolina makes my head explode.

So....yes. SIGH. It's not my problem if people who are finally now coming to the light on these issues (in freaking 2016!) are being pushed away from my opinion (which, turn on the tv, is shared by MANY) based on frustrations being expressed.
It's freaking 2016? Well, hell, then your opinion must be right based on the year it is. Why, I was writing 2015 on my checks, so no wonder I didn't have the right opinion.

BTW, I tend to not let tv form my opinions. And I don't remember anyone arguing that your opinion doesn't exist there and only bg has said there was no lgbt targeted violence in North Carolina, so you can take the duct tape off your head to keep it from its imaginary explosion.

With Philly and Portland's laws, public buildings would have a unisex bathroom. Are you telling me that doesn't go far enough?

So I've said there is targeted lgbt violence (and there would continue to be so in bathrooms should Charlotte's law be upheld -- and in the case of women in a men's bathroom it would be greater than it would have been in a women's bathroom, something that you have selectively avoided answering).

And while your opinion on the matter is shared by many, it certainly is not shared by many as well. A poll in the last week by Reuters has 43% of respondents say that people should use the bathroom of their biological sex while 41% say they should use be. Those numbers are....COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. If it was 99 to 1 either for or against, it's still going to be about legal interpretation, not public opinion. The number of people who share my opinion or your's means squat. I'm willing to let the courts sort it out, and if the ruling is against my opinion, which I feel it could very likely be, so be it.
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brumdog44 Apr 22 2016, 06:45 PM Post #98
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dreachon
Apr 22 2016, 05:35 PM
Can I ask something? Before the Charlotte law saying it's now legal for transgenders to use the opposite bathroom, was it actually illegal for them to do so or was this law merely showing solidarity with the group?
I can just tell you that in Indiana, there is no law on the books or legal precedents court case.

That said, I would say that there were most certainly cases in Indiana where a transgender person has used the restroom of the opposite gender as well as times where someone was removed from a restroom for which they were a member of the opposite gender.
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brumdog44 Apr 22 2016, 06:49 PM Post #99
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sirbrianwilson
Apr 22 2016, 05:48 PM
dreachon
Apr 22 2016, 05:35 PM
Can I ask something? Before the Charlotte law saying it's now legal for transgenders to use the opposite bathroom, was it actually illegal for them to do so or was this law merely showing solidarity with the group?
This is where my frustration comes from. Prior to this law AND after this law, there will be creeps and sexual predators. Some will act out and victimize someone, sometimes in a bathroom, which has ALWAYS been illegal. Proponents of this bill argue it's about sexual predators and not trans people, which I find to be absolutely bullshit and extremely coincidental given the national conversation around trans people. These folks have been sharing restrooms with folks of the opposite biological sex for years and years and years without issue. To hear the the argument that trans people are making others uncomfortable really flies in the face of history and is a dangerous thought. Talk to any trans person about where their "danger zones" are and it may open your eyes to the issue. To hear comments about how there is no lgbt targeted violence in North Carolina makes my head explode.

So....yes. SIGH. It's not my problem if people who are finally now coming to the light on these issues (in freaking 2016!) are being pushed away from my opinion (which, turn on the tv, is shared by MANY) based on frustrations being expressed.
I do want it noted that your charges of proponents against the bill:

-- argue that it's about sexual predators
-- don't believe there is violence against lgbt.

I have stated that IMO neither of these arguments are true.....so I wouldn't generalize those that oppose the bill.
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dreachon Apr 23 2016, 12:38 PM Post #100
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brumdog44
Apr 22 2016, 06:45 PM
dreachon
Apr 22 2016, 05:35 PM
Can I ask something? Before the Charlotte law saying it's now legal for transgenders to use the opposite bathroom, was it actually illegal for them to do so or was this law merely showing solidarity with the group?
I can just tell you that in Indiana, there is no law on the books or legal precedents court case.

That said, I would say that there were most certainly cases in Indiana where a transgender person has used the restroom of the opposite gender as well as times where someone was removed from a restroom for which they were a member of the opposite gender.
Yeah. So what I'm thinking is this.

1) I'm against the Charlotte law because I really don't feel like it was necessary since I'm guessing that's what everyone was doing anyways.

2) That said, if there's a Charlotte law on the books, who cares? It doesn't change anything.

3) It also means the response to the Charlotte law is clearly for the specific purpose of being discriminatory for the LGBT community. They we were like, "oh no, you mean transgender folks use the other bathroom? We better make that illegal."

4) I think it also reinforces the idea that the Republican party has lost its way. Fiscally conservative, small government. That's what they're nutshell is...was.
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sirbrianwilson Apr 23 2016, 12:46 PM Post #101
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This bill is solely about trans discrimination.
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brumdog44 Apr 23 2016, 02:58 PM Post #102
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sirbrianwilson
Apr 23 2016, 12:46 PM
This bill is solely about trans discrimination.
The opposite could be said about the Charlotte bill -- that it grants a right specific to transgenders that it does not to others.

Let the courts figure it out. That's what they are there for. Everything else on both sides right now is just posturing.
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brumdog44 Apr 23 2016, 03:03 PM Post #103
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brumdog44
Apr 22 2016, 06:49 PM
sirbrianwilson
Apr 22 2016, 05:48 PM
dreachon
Apr 22 2016, 05:35 PM
Can I ask something? Before the Charlotte law saying it's now legal for transgenders to use the opposite bathroom, was it actually illegal for them to do so or was this law merely showing solidarity with the group?
This is where my frustration comes from. Prior to this law AND after this law, there will be creeps and sexual predators. Some will act out and victimize someone, sometimes in a bathroom, which has ALWAYS been illegal. Proponents of this bill argue it's about sexual predators and not trans people, which I find to be absolutely bullshit and extremely coincidental given the national conversation around trans people. These folks have been sharing restrooms with folks of the opposite biological sex for years and years and years without issue. To hear the the argument that trans people are making others uncomfortable really flies in the face of history and is a dangerous thought. Talk to any trans person about where their "danger zones" are and it may open your eyes to the issue. To hear comments about how there is no lgbt targeted violence in North Carolina makes my head explode.

So....yes. SIGH. It's not my problem if people who are finally now coming to the light on these issues (in freaking 2016!) are being pushed away from my opinion (which, turn on the tv, is shared by MANY) based on frustrations being expressed.
I do want it noted that your charges of proponents against the bill:

-- argue that it's about sexual predators
-- don't believe there is violence against lgbt.

I have stated that IMO neither of these arguments are true.....so I wouldn't generalize those that oppose the bill.
bump

You can't simply generalize it as a right/left bill. Reuters ran a survey in which basically it was 1/3 of republicans supporting transgenders using the bathroom that they identify with while 2/3 of democrats approved of the same thing. This isn't one of the ones where you see 90% of party agreeing with it and 90% of the other disagreeing with it. A lot of democrats and republicans are in agreement with the quote-unquote 'other party's stance'.
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sirbrianwilson Apr 24 2016, 11:43 AM Post #104
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Totally not a d/r thing. More of an LGBT supporter vs non-supporter thing. I trust the courts to make the right decision and abolish this unconstitutional bill.
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brumdog44 Apr 24 2016, 08:23 PM Post #105
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sirbrianwilson
Apr 24 2016, 11:43 AM
Totally not a d/r thing. More of an LGBT supporter vs non-supporter thing. I trust the courts to make the right decision and abolish this unconstitutional bill.
Not sure what amendment the right to bare bottoms is. :P

I think it should be mentioned that this is one of the areas that I don't think our forefathers ever considered. Even not considering LGBT issues, I think the number of buildings with indoor plumbing in 1776 was limited.
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