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Updated Political Poll
Tweet Topic Started: May 22 2016, 08:44 PM (3,323 Views)
HoosierLars Sep 17 2016, 11:13 AM Post #286
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I think only women should be allowed to make these decisions.
I think society needs to impose some reasonable limits, and can't allow late term abortions to be legal. Those cheapen the value of human life, IMO.
What do you consider 'reasonable'?

If you are equating late term abortion to third trimester, currently 41 of 50 states already do ban 'late term'.
I think a third trimester ban is more than reasonable. Why does Hillary and Democrats fail to officially endorse this position?
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brumdog44 Sep 17 2016, 11:52 AM Post #287
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Sep 16 2016, 10:04 AM
I think only women should be allowed to make these decisions.
I think society needs to impose some reasonable limits, and can't allow late term abortions to be legal. Those cheapen the value of human life, IMO.
What do you consider 'reasonable'?

If you are equating late term abortion to third trimester, currently 41 of 50 states already do ban 'late term'.
I think a third trimester ban is more than reasonable. Why does Hillary and Democrats fail to officially endorse this position?
One reason is that Clinton has stated that she believes there should not be a full ban on third trimester abortions because of cases in which the mother's life is endangered.

Anyway, it is currently a state's issue in terms of abortion limits, although some of the limits can come under challenge. I believer there are a couple of states that set it at 6 weeks.

Let me flip the switch and ask you this: why do so many republicans feel that the legal right to own a gun should come with no waiting period to purchase while mandating a waiting period for a abortion that is a legal procedure?
Edited by brumdog44, Sep 17 2016, 11:53 AM.
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sirbrianwilson Sep 17 2016, 12:41 PM Post #288
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I appreciated the humor in the Missouri bill requiring a spouse's approval to get a vasectomy...

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HoosierLars Sep 17 2016, 01:13 PM Post #289
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Sep 17 2016, 03:51 AM
HoosierLars
Sep 17 2016, 12:13 AM
sirbrianwilson
Sep 16 2016, 10:04 AM
I think only women should be allowed to make these decisions.
I think society needs to impose some reasonable limits, and can't allow late term abortions to be legal. Those cheapen the value of human life, IMO.
What do you consider 'reasonable'?

If you are equating late term abortion to third trimester, currently 41 of 50 states already do ban 'late term'.
I think a third trimester ban is more than reasonable. Why does Hillary and Democrats fail to officially endorse this position?
One reason is that Clinton has stated that she believes there should not be a full ban on third trimester abortions because of cases in which the mother's life is endangered.

Anyway, it is currently a state's issue in terms of abortion limits, although some of the limits can come under challenge. I believer there are a couple of states that set it at 6 weeks.

Let me flip the switch and ask you this: why do so many republicans feel that the legal right to own a gun should come with no waiting period to purchase while mandating a waiting period for a abortion that is a legal procedure?
I have no problem for an exception to protect mothers' lives. I also don't have a problem with the Feds letting the states set the limits, but from a political viewpoint, Repubs should shift the abortion debate away from being anti-abortion, period, and towards banning late abortions.

Getting a gun can be time critical, e.g. an estranged spouse can threaten bodily harm, and the woman needs protection--now. I don't see any such time pressure for abortions, and support expecting mothers taking some time to make sure they are making the correct decision for them.
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Mr Gray Sep 17 2016, 01:37 PM Post #290
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Aaron, if science proved to you that plants had a desire to survive and definitely felt pain, agony and sorrow when harvested, just like your born children would if someone were trying to kill them, would you still feel that it's ok to inflict such pain dread and death? This is not a "gotcha" because this technology does not exist that I'm aware of. But you do need to seriously think about it outside of your established ideology.

Think about your own children and the agony you would experience at the thought of a farmer trying to kill them while they fought through pain to try to survive. If you knew that vegetables went through the same feelings, would you still eat them?
LOL.....comparing a plant to a human. Nice. The subject matter is the protection of human life.
Amazing avoidance of the question. Are you the only one that gets to ask hypotheticals? (and you keep stating that science will eventually show that a three month old fetus feels pain with no scientific proof of that.....only your assumption)

And I completely understand your question. I just don't know why you insist on asking it when it makes difference to your own personal opinion....so if someone agreed with that statement, it still doesn't mean they are pro-life. It just puts a time frame on it.

In the answer to your question, I would lean toward saying that I would say that at that point of pregnancy I would be against aborting fetuses. I frankly, though, would want time to think it through.
I "insist on asking it" to illustrate the shift that would take place if/when technological advancements were to further "humanize" the fetus. Dreach is likely being dishonest in fear of a "gotcha" moment, but I think you and I can agree that the majority of people would see the procedure as brutal and think it should be illegal if we knew that the fetus felt the pain of the abortion and wished to or fought to survive. It becomes much closer to the idea of killing a newborn......they don't have a full understanding of everything going on yet, but the certainly feel pain and have a human survival instinct.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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HoosierLars Sep 17 2016, 04:11 PM Post #291
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It's difficult to imagine some new breakthrough in science that would lead most people to believe that something magical happens at the instant of conception. We have a good understanding about how the fertilized egg starts subdividing into more cells, and after a few days is already up to hundreds of cells. The process of the fetus' development is well understood biological science. What research is leading you to believe there is going to be some game changing breakthrough?
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Mr Gray Sep 17 2016, 04:29 PM Post #292
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It's difficult to imagine some new breakthrough in science that would lead most people to believe that something magical happens at the instant of conception. We have a good understanding about how the fertilized egg starts subdividing into more cells, and after a few days is already up to hundreds of cells. The process of the fetus' development is well understood biological science. What research is leading you to believe there is going to be some game changing breakthrough?
I don't think you're really considering the situation because of your steel framed view about this "moment of conception" issue which is only a small part of the abortion issue.

We are already seeing technology "bring the fetus to life" with the 3D images and the 3D videos are stunning. We are also starting to understand the cognitive and emotional state of the fetus more every day and they now have solid evidence of connections they are forming in the womb to people outside, particularly their mother's voice. We are seeing them respond to certain stimuli just like a newborn would, or in some cases to and I would, at earlier and earlier stages simply because we continue to advance the instruments to do so.

This is a science that will continue to advance, unrelated to the abortion issue......however softer hearts towards the fetus will be an inevitable byproduct.

Have you ever seen a video of an abortion Lars? You should see the little guy or girl squirm to get away. It's maybe the saddest thing I've ever seen and it sincerely breaks my heart just sitting here thinking about it. I spend a large portion of my life standing up to the innocent and the weak......it's the way I was raised and it's in my dna. Watching those little guys fight for their life and ultimately lose defies everything in my body and mind. And for what? Because she can't afford the child? It's a bad time in her life? The father is a loser? I'm not saying those are the only reasons, but they make up a lot of them, and it makes no sense to me since each of those are easily solved with adoption options.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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HoosierLars Sep 17 2016, 06:00 PM Post #293
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It's difficult to imagine some new breakthrough in science that would lead most people to believe that something magical happens at the instant of conception. We have a good understanding about how the fertilized egg starts subdividing into more cells, and after a few days is already up to hundreds of cells. The process of the fetus' development is well understood biological science. What research is leading you to believe there is going to be some game changing breakthrough?
I don't think you're really considering the situation because of your steel framed view about this "moment of conception" issue which is only a small part of the abortion issue.

We are already seeing technology "bring the fetus to life" with the 3D images and the 3D videos are stunning. We are also starting to understand the cognitive and emotional state of the fetus more every day and they now have solid evidence of connections they are forming in the womb to people outside, particularly their mother's voice. We are seeing them respond to certain stimuli just like a newborn would, or in some cases to and I would, at earlier and earlier stages simply because we continue to advance the instruments to do so.

This is a science that will continue to advance, unrelated to the abortion issue......however softer hearts towards the fetus will be an inevitable byproduct.

Have you ever seen a video of an abortion Lars? You should see the little guy or girl squirm to get away. It's maybe the saddest thing I've ever seen and it sincerely breaks my heart just sitting here thinking about it. I spend a large portion of my life standing up to the innocent and the weak......it's the way I was raised and it's in my dna. Watching those little guys fight for their life and ultimately lose defies everything in my body and mind. And for what? Because she can't afford the child? It's a bad time in her life? The father is a loser? I'm not saying those are the only reasons, but they make up a lot of them, and it makes no sense to me since each of those are easily solved with adoption options.
http://www.babycenter.com/fetal-development-week-by-week
scroll down to week four. What is science going to discover that leads people to think this is an unborn baby?
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dreachon Sep 17 2016, 06:40 PM Post #294
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It's difficult to imagine some new breakthrough in science that would lead most people to believe that something magical happens at the instant of conception. We have a good understanding about how the fertilized egg starts subdividing into more cells, and after a few days is already up to hundreds of cells. The process of the fetus' development is well understood biological science. What research is leading you to believe there is going to be some game changing breakthrough?
I don't think you're really considering the situation because of your steel framed view about this "moment of conception" issue which is only a small part of the abortion issue.

We are already seeing technology "bring the fetus to life" with the 3D images and the 3D videos are stunning. We are also starting to understand the cognitive and emotional state of the fetus more every day and they now have solid evidence of connections they are forming in the womb to people outside, particularly their mother's voice. We are seeing them respond to certain stimuli just like a newborn would, or in some cases to and I would, at earlier and earlier stages simply because we continue to advance the instruments to do so.

This is a science that will continue to advance, unrelated to the abortion issue......however softer hearts towards the fetus will be an inevitable byproduct.

Have you ever seen a video of an abortion Lars? You should see the little guy or girl squirm to get away. It's maybe the saddest thing I've ever seen and it sincerely breaks my heart just sitting here thinking about it. I spend a large portion of my life standing up to the innocent and the weak......it's the way I was raised and it's in my dna. Watching those little guys fight for their life and ultimately lose defies everything in my body and mind. And for what? Because she can't afford the child? It's a bad time in her life? The father is a loser? I'm not saying those are the only reasons, but they make up a lot of them, and it makes no sense to me since each of those are easily solved with adoption options.
http://www.babycenter.com/fetal-development-week-by-week
scroll down to week four. What is science going to discover that leads people to think this is an unborn baby?
Week 12 - "The size of a lime"

It does not have emotions or wants. It doesn't have desire or sorrow or agony. This is just projecting our emotions onto a fetus that has no ability to process anything other than the most basic instinctual reflexes
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mongo Sep 17 2016, 09:24 PM Post #295
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It's difficult to imagine some new breakthrough in science that would lead most people to believe that something magical happens at the instant of conception. We have a good understanding about how the fertilized egg starts subdividing into more cells, and after a few days is already up to hundreds of cells. The process of the fetus' development is well understood biological science. What research is leading you to believe there is going to be some game changing breakthrough?
I don't think you're really considering the situation because of your steel framed view about this "moment of conception" issue which is only a small part of the abortion issue.

We are already seeing technology "bring the fetus to life" with the 3D images and the 3D videos are stunning. We are also starting to understand the cognitive and emotional state of the fetus more every day and they now have solid evidence of connections they are forming in the womb to people outside, particularly their mother's voice. We are seeing them respond to certain stimuli just like a newborn would, or in some cases to and I would, at earlier and earlier stages simply because we continue to advance the instruments to do so.

This is a science that will continue to advance, unrelated to the abortion issue......however softer hearts towards the fetus will be an inevitable byproduct.

Have you ever seen a video of an abortion Lars? You should see the little guy or girl squirm to get away. It's maybe the saddest thing I've ever seen and it sincerely breaks my heart just sitting here thinking about it. I spend a large portion of my life standing up to the innocent and the weak......it's the way I was raised and it's in my dna. Watching those little guys fight for their life and ultimately lose defies everything in my body and mind. And for what? Because she can't afford the child? It's a bad time in her life? The father is a loser? I'm not saying those are the only reasons, but they make up a lot of them, and it makes no sense to me since each of those are easily solved with adoption options.
What about rape, incest, or the mothers health ? None of those conditions matter to you at all? If they don't, then it's ironic someone who claims to value human life so much puts an embryo the size of a lime above a woman.
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Mr Gray Sep 17 2016, 10:09 PM Post #296
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It's difficult to imagine some new breakthrough in science that would lead most people to believe that something magical happens at the instant of conception. We have a good understanding about how the fertilized egg starts subdividing into more cells, and after a few days is already up to hundreds of cells. The process of the fetus' development is well understood biological science. What research is leading you to believe there is going to be some game changing breakthrough?
I don't think you're really considering the situation because of your steel framed view about this "moment of conception" issue which is only a small part of the abortion issue.

We are already seeing technology "bring the fetus to life" with the 3D images and the 3D videos are stunning. We are also starting to understand the cognitive and emotional state of the fetus more every day and they now have solid evidence of connections they are forming in the womb to people outside, particularly their mother's voice. We are seeing them respond to certain stimuli just like a newborn would, or in some cases to and I would, at earlier and earlier stages simply because we continue to advance the instruments to do so.

This is a science that will continue to advance, unrelated to the abortion issue......however softer hearts towards the fetus will be an inevitable byproduct.

Have you ever seen a video of an abortion Lars? You should see the little guy or girl squirm to get away. It's maybe the saddest thing I've ever seen and it sincerely breaks my heart just sitting here thinking about it. I spend a large portion of my life standing up to the innocent and the weak......it's the way I was raised and it's in my dna. Watching those little guys fight for their life and ultimately lose defies everything in my body and mind. And for what? Because she can't afford the child? It's a bad time in her life? The father is a loser? I'm not saying those are the only reasons, but they make up a lot of them, and it makes no sense to me since each of those are easily solved with adoption options.
What about rape, incest, or the mothers health ? None of those conditions matter to you at all? If they don't, then it's ironic someone who claims to value human life so much puts an embryo the size of a lime above a woman.
Where did I say I would rather kill the woman than the fetus?
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray Sep 17 2016, 10:26 PM Post #297
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It's difficult to imagine some new breakthrough in science that would lead most people to believe that something magical happens at the instant of conception. We have a good understanding about how the fertilized egg starts subdividing into more cells, and after a few days is already up to hundreds of cells. The process of the fetus' development is well understood biological science. What research is leading you to believe there is going to be some game changing breakthrough?
I don't think you're really considering the situation because of your steel framed view about this "moment of conception" issue which is only a small part of the abortion issue.

We are already seeing technology "bring the fetus to life" with the 3D images and the 3D videos are stunning. We are also starting to understand the cognitive and emotional state of the fetus more every day and they now have solid evidence of connections they are forming in the womb to people outside, particularly their mother's voice. We are seeing them respond to certain stimuli just like a newborn would, or in some cases to and I would, at earlier and earlier stages simply because we continue to advance the instruments to do so.

This is a science that will continue to advance, unrelated to the abortion issue......however softer hearts towards the fetus will be an inevitable byproduct.

Have you ever seen a video of an abortion Lars? You should see the little guy or girl squirm to get away. It's maybe the saddest thing I've ever seen and it sincerely breaks my heart just sitting here thinking about it. I spend a large portion of my life standing up to the innocent and the weak......it's the way I was raised and it's in my dna. Watching those little guys fight for their life and ultimately lose defies everything in my body and mind. And for what? Because she can't afford the child? It's a bad time in her life? The father is a loser? I'm not saying those are the only reasons, but they make up a lot of them, and it makes no sense to me since each of those are easily solved with adoption options.
http://www.babycenter.com/fetal-development-week-by-week
scroll down to week four. What is science going to discover that leads people to think this is an unborn baby?
Week 12 - "The size of a lime"

It does not have emotions or wants. It doesn't have desire or sorrow or agony. This is just projecting our emotions onto a fetus that has no ability to process anything other than the most basic instinctual reflexes
how do you know any of what you just said to be true dreach?
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray Sep 17 2016, 10:27 PM Post #298
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It's difficult to imagine some new breakthrough in science that would lead most people to believe that something magical happens at the instant of conception. We have a good understanding about how the fertilized egg starts subdividing into more cells, and after a few days is already up to hundreds of cells. The process of the fetus' development is well understood biological science. What research is leading you to believe there is going to be some game changing breakthrough?
I don't think you're really considering the situation because of your steel framed view about this "moment of conception" issue which is only a small part of the abortion issue.

We are already seeing technology "bring the fetus to life" with the 3D images and the 3D videos are stunning. We are also starting to understand the cognitive and emotional state of the fetus more every day and they now have solid evidence of connections they are forming in the womb to people outside, particularly their mother's voice. We are seeing them respond to certain stimuli just like a newborn would, or in some cases to and I would, at earlier and earlier stages simply because we continue to advance the instruments to do so.

This is a science that will continue to advance, unrelated to the abortion issue......however softer hearts towards the fetus will be an inevitable byproduct.

Have you ever seen a video of an abortion Lars? You should see the little guy or girl squirm to get away. It's maybe the saddest thing I've ever seen and it sincerely breaks my heart just sitting here thinking about it. I spend a large portion of my life standing up to the innocent and the weak......it's the way I was raised and it's in my dna. Watching those little guys fight for their life and ultimately lose defies everything in my body and mind. And for what? Because she can't afford the child? It's a bad time in her life? The father is a loser? I'm not saying those are the only reasons, but they make up a lot of them, and it makes no sense to me since each of those are easily solved with adoption options.
http://www.babycenter.com/fetal-development-week-by-week
scroll down to week four. What is science going to discover that leads people to think this is an unborn baby?
science could discover a lot about the 4 week old fetus Lars.....do you really think we know all there is to know?
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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Mr Gray Sep 17 2016, 10:35 PM Post #299
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"An unborn baby at 20 weeks gestation “is fully capable of experiencing pain. … Without question, [abortion] is a dreadfully painful experience for any infant subjected to such a surgical procedure.”
— Robert J. White, M.D., PhD., professor of neurosurgery, Case Western University

Unborn babies have heightened sensitivities
Unborn babies at 20 weeks development actually feel pain more intensely than adults. This is a “uniquely vulnerable time, since the pain system is fully established, yet the higher level pain-modifying system has barely begun to develop,” according to Dr. Ranalli.

"As early as eight to ten weeks after conception, and definitely by thirteen-and-a-half weeks, the unborn experiences organic pain…. First, the unborn child's mouth, at eight weeks, then her hands at ten weeks, then her face, arms, and legs at eleven weeks become sensitive to touch. By thirteen-and-a-half weeks, she responds to pain at all levels of her nervous system in an integrated response which cannot be termed a mere reflex. She can now experience pain."
- Surgeon Robert P. N. Shearin


Pioneer fetologist Albert Iiley, of the University of Auckland, says that by the fifty-sixth day after conception, the baby's spinal reflexes are sufficiently developed to feel pain. He adds:

"When doctors first began invading the sanctuary of the womb, they did not know that the unborn baby would react to pain in the same fashion as a child would. But they soon learned he did."


This is what we know now......but science is advance every day, and will likely discover more about what is going on with the fetus. Will they discover something that makes it seem human at 4 weeks...maybe not anytime soon, but discovering things that make it human at 8 weeks brings a lot more hearts and minds around to the realization that this is a human life, and we probably shouldn't be killing it.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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brumdog44 Sep 18 2016, 01:07 AM Post #300
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Aaron, if science proved to you that plants had a desire to survive and definitely felt pain, agony and sorrow when harvested, just like your born children would if someone were trying to kill them, would you still feel that it's ok to inflict such pain dread and death? This is not a "gotcha" because this technology does not exist that I'm aware of. But you do need to seriously think about it outside of your established ideology.

Think about your own children and the agony you would experience at the thought of a farmer trying to kill them while they fought through pain to try to survive. If you knew that vegetables went through the same feelings, would you still eat them?
LOL.....comparing a plant to a human. Nice. The subject matter is the protection of human life.
Amazing avoidance of the question. Are you the only one that gets to ask hypotheticals? (and you keep stating that science will eventually show that a three month old fetus feels pain with no scientific proof of that.....only your assumption)

And I completely understand your question. I just don't know why you insist on asking it when it makes difference to your own personal opinion....so if someone agreed with that statement, it still doesn't mean they are pro-life. It just puts a time frame on it.

In the answer to your question, I would lean toward saying that I would say that at that point of pregnancy I would be against aborting fetuses. I frankly, though, would want time to think it through.
I "insist on asking it" to illustrate the shift that would take place if/when technological advancements were to further "humanize" the fetus. Dreach is likely being dishonest in fear of a "gotcha" moment, but I think you and I can agree that the majority of people would see the procedure as brutal and think it should be illegal if we knew that the fetus felt the pain of the abortion and wished to or fought to survive. It becomes much closer to the idea of killing a newborn......they don't have a full understanding of everything going on yet, but the certainly feel pain and have a human survival instinct.
And what if technology shows that pain isn't felt until after, say five months? Should those states that have abortion laws that make abortion illegal in less than a period of 22 weeks be pressured to raise it up to 22 weeks?
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