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Updated Political Poll
Tweet Topic Started: May 22 2016, 08:44 PM (3,322 Views)
brumdog44 Sep 18 2016, 01:14 AM Post #301
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http://www.livescience.com/54774-fetal-pain-anesthesia.html

he law assumes that a fetus may be able to feel pain at that stage in development; however, doctors groups and other critics of the law argue that a fetus cannot feel pain at 20 weeks gestational age.

Indeed, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) said it considers the case to be closed as to whether a fetus can feel pain at that stage in development.

3 4 831 MORE
Do Fetuses Feel Pain? What the Science Says
Credit: Fotos593 | Shutterstock.com
Utah recently passed a law that requires doctors to give anesthesia to a fetus prior to performing an abortion that occurs at 20 weeks of gestation or later.

The law assumes that a fetus may be able to feel pain at that stage in development; however, doctors groups and other critics of the law argue that a fetus cannot feel pain at 20 weeks gestational age.

Indeed, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) said it considers the case to be closed as to whether a fetus can feel pain at that stage in development. [6 Myths About Miscarriage]

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"The science shows that based on gestational age, the fetus is not capable of feeling pain until the third trimester," said Kate Connors, a spokesperson for ACOG. The third trimester begins at about 27 weeks of pregnancy.

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/05/does-a-fetus-feel-pain-at-20-weeks/

The perception of pain requires an awareness of an unpleasant stimulus — receptors throughout the body must send a signal to the brain, where it can be processed as pain. One reason the JAMA review finds early pain perception unlikely is that the connections between the thalamus, a sort of relay center in the brain, and the cortex have not yet formed. This happens between 23 and 30 weeks gestational age, and the authors argue these connections are a precursor for pain perception. They also cite studies using electroencephalography that have shown the capacity for functional pain in preterm newborns “probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks.”



http://www.salon.com/2013/08/07/fetal_pain_is_a_lie_how_phony_science_took_over_the_abortion_debate/

Because the neural structures necessary to feel pain have not yet developed, any observable responses to stimuli at this gestational stage — like the fetal “flinching” during an amniocentesis — are reflexive, not experiential. Which is to say, the fetus at 20 weeks can’t actually feel anything at all. Which is to say, the fundamental justification for these laws is a really big, really popular lie.

“That’s just where the science is. You can have an opinion about that, but it doesn’t change the information,” Davis says. “Science is not going to get the brain to connect faster.” (Neither, it should be noted, will the hoping, wishing or foot-stomping of politicians like Marco Rubio and his anti-choice contemporaries.)
Edited by brumdog44, Sep 18 2016, 01:15 AM.
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brumdog44 Sep 18 2016, 01:18 AM Post #302
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This is what we know now......but science is advance every day, and will likely discover more about what is going on with the fetus. Will they discover something that makes it seem human at 4 weeks...maybe not anytime soon, but discovering things that make it human at 8 weeks brings a lot more hearts and minds around to the realization that this is a human life, and we probably shouldn't be killing it.
No, that is not what we know now.
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Mr Gray Sep 18 2016, 06:46 AM Post #303
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This is what we know now......but science is advance every day, and will likely discover more about what is going on with the fetus. Will they discover something that makes it seem human at 4 weeks...maybe not anytime soon, but discovering things that make it human at 8 weeks brings a lot more hearts and minds around to the realization that this is a human life, and we probably shouldn't be killing it.
No, that is not what we know now.
Yes it is.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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HoosierLars Sep 18 2016, 10:22 AM Post #304
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My position remains that birth control should be allowed and even encouraged, and using devices like the IUD that can stop the implantation of fertilized egg, or taking a drug that can detach a fertilized egg a few days after it implants to the wall are also fine. I can't have a rational abortion discussion with anyone who can't at least go this far to compromise with the pro-choice side of the argument.

That said, I do respect two pro-life positions: 1) One that is also against birth control, e.g. Rick Santorum, and 2) One that makes the religious argument that life begins at conception. I argue that a loving God would never put the soul in a recently fertilized egg and then condemn it after an abortion, but that's a theological discussion with no clear right/wrong answer.
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Mr Gray Sep 18 2016, 11:18 AM Post #305
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My position remains that birth control should be allowed and even encouraged, and using devices like the IUD that can stop the implantation of fertilized egg, or taking a drug that can detach a fertilized egg a few days after it implants to the wall are also fine. I can't have a rational abortion discussion with anyone who can't at least go this far to compromise with the pro-choice side of the argument.

That said, I do respect two pro-life positions: 1) One that is also against birth control, e.g. Rick Santorum, and 2) One that makes the religious argument that life begins at conception. I argue that a loving God would never put the soul in a recently fertilized egg and then condemn it after an abortion, but that's a theological discussion with no clear right/wrong answer.
do you mean that those are 2 positions that you "don't" respect?

Since you specifically pointed to the 4 week fetus, do you accept that this fetus is a member of the human species?
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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HoosierLars Sep 18 2016, 11:50 AM Post #306
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My position remains that birth control should be allowed and even encouraged, and using devices like the IUD that can stop the implantation of fertilized egg, or taking a drug that can detach a fertilized egg a few days after it implants to the wall are also fine. I can't have a rational abortion discussion with anyone who can't at least go this far to compromise with the pro-choice side of the argument.

That said, I do respect two pro-life positions: 1) One that is also against birth control, e.g. Rick Santorum, and 2) One that makes the religious argument that life begins at conception. I argue that a loving God would never put the soul in a recently fertilized egg and then condemn it after an abortion, but that's a theological discussion with no clear right/wrong answer.
do you mean that those are 2 positions that you "don't" respect?

Since you specifically pointed to the 4 week fetus, do you accept that this fetus is a member of the human species?
I shouldn't have used "respect." I meant to say that I consider those two positions to be logically consistent, and like you, I like consistency.
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Mr Gray Sep 18 2016, 12:18 PM Post #307
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My position remains that birth control should be allowed and even encouraged, and using devices like the IUD that can stop the implantation of fertilized egg, or taking a drug that can detach a fertilized egg a few days after it implants to the wall are also fine. I can't have a rational abortion discussion with anyone who can't at least go this far to compromise with the pro-choice side of the argument.

That said, I do respect two pro-life positions: 1) One that is also against birth control, e.g. Rick Santorum, and 2) One that makes the religious argument that life begins at conception. I argue that a loving God would never put the soul in a recently fertilized egg and then condemn it after an abortion, but that's a theological discussion with no clear right/wrong answer.
do you mean that those are 2 positions that you "don't" respect?

Since you specifically pointed to the 4 week fetus, do you accept that this fetus is a member of the human species?
I shouldn't have used "respect." I meant to say that I consider those two positions to be logically consistent, and like you, I like consistency.
I've never heard anyone say that the aborted fetus is condemned to hell....maybe some do, I've just never heard it as a popualr argument (actually never heard it at all).
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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sirbrianwilson Sep 18 2016, 01:28 PM Post #308
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mongo Sep 18 2016, 04:43 PM Post #309
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It's difficult to imagine some new breakthrough in science that would lead most people to believe that something magical happens at the instant of conception. We have a good understanding about how the fertilized egg starts subdividing into more cells, and after a few days is already up to hundreds of cells. The process of the fetus' development is well understood biological science. What research is leading you to believe there is going to be some game changing breakthrough?
I don't think you're really considering the situation because of your steel framed view about this "moment of conception" issue which is only a small part of the abortion issue.

We are already seeing technology "bring the fetus to life" with the 3D images and the 3D videos are stunning. We are also starting to understand the cognitive and emotional state of the fetus more every day and they now have solid evidence of connections they are forming in the womb to people outside, particularly their mother's voice. We are seeing them respond to certain stimuli just like a newborn would, or in some cases to and I would, at earlier and earlier stages simply because we continue to advance the instruments to do so.

This is a science that will continue to advance, unrelated to the abortion issue......however softer hearts towards the fetus will be an inevitable byproduct.

Have you ever seen a video of an abortion Lars? You should see the little guy or girl squirm to get away. It's maybe the saddest thing I've ever seen and it sincerely breaks my heart just sitting here thinking about it. I spend a large portion of my life standing up to the innocent and the weak......it's the way I was raised and it's in my dna. Watching those little guys fight for their life and ultimately lose defies everything in my body and mind. And for what? Because she can't afford the child? It's a bad time in her life? The father is a loser? I'm not saying those are the only reasons, but they make up a lot of them, and it makes no sense to me since each of those are easily solved with adoption options.
What about rape, incest, or the mothers health ? None of those conditions matter to you at all? If they don't, then it's ironic someone who claims to value human life so much puts an embryo the size of a lime above a woman.
Where did I say I would rather kill the woman than the fetus?
But you are against abortion under any circumstances, right?
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Mr Gray Sep 18 2016, 07:10 PM Post #310
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It's difficult to imagine some new breakthrough in science that would lead most people to believe that something magical happens at the instant of conception. We have a good understanding about how the fertilized egg starts subdividing into more cells, and after a few days is already up to hundreds of cells. The process of the fetus' development is well understood biological science. What research is leading you to believe there is going to be some game changing breakthrough?
I don't think you're really considering the situation because of your steel framed view about this "moment of conception" issue which is only a small part of the abortion issue.

We are already seeing technology "bring the fetus to life" with the 3D images and the 3D videos are stunning. We are also starting to understand the cognitive and emotional state of the fetus more every day and they now have solid evidence of connections they are forming in the womb to people outside, particularly their mother's voice. We are seeing them respond to certain stimuli just like a newborn would, or in some cases to and I would, at earlier and earlier stages simply because we continue to advance the instruments to do so.

This is a science that will continue to advance, unrelated to the abortion issue......however softer hearts towards the fetus will be an inevitable byproduct.

Have you ever seen a video of an abortion Lars? You should see the little guy or girl squirm to get away. It's maybe the saddest thing I've ever seen and it sincerely breaks my heart just sitting here thinking about it. I spend a large portion of my life standing up to the innocent and the weak......it's the way I was raised and it's in my dna. Watching those little guys fight for their life and ultimately lose defies everything in my body and mind. And for what? Because she can't afford the child? It's a bad time in her life? The father is a loser? I'm not saying those are the only reasons, but they make up a lot of them, and it makes no sense to me since each of those are easily solved with adoption options.
What about rape, incest, or the mothers health ? None of those conditions matter to you at all? If they don't, then it's ironic someone who claims to value human life so much puts an embryo the size of a lime above a woman.
Where did I say I would rather kill the woman than the fetus?
But you are against abortion under any circumstances, right?
Gotta love assumptions.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon Sep 18 2016, 07:39 PM Post #311
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Sep 17 2016, 10:35 PM


This is what we know now......but science is advance every day, and will likely discover more about what is going on with the fetus. Will they discover something that makes it seem human at 4 weeks...maybe not anytime soon, but discovering things that make it human at 8 weeks brings a lot more hearts and minds around to the realization that this is a human life, and we probably shouldn't be killing it.
No, that is not what we know now.
Yes it is.
Well then. Case closed.

Both of you posted links/quotes to support your side. Either of you actually read the other's post and have some useful commentary?
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dreachon Sep 18 2016, 07:44 PM Post #312
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Sep 17 2016, 04:11 PM
It's difficult to imagine some new breakthrough in science that would lead most people to believe that something magical happens at the instant of conception. We have a good understanding about how the fertilized egg starts subdividing into more cells, and after a few days is already up to hundreds of cells. The process of the fetus' development is well understood biological science. What research is leading you to believe there is going to be some game changing breakthrough?
I don't think you're really considering the situation because of your steel framed view about this "moment of conception" issue which is only a small part of the abortion issue.

We are already seeing technology "bring the fetus to life" with the 3D images and the 3D videos are stunning. We are also starting to understand the cognitive and emotional state of the fetus more every day and they now have solid evidence of connections they are forming in the womb to people outside, particularly their mother's voice. We are seeing them respond to certain stimuli just like a newborn would, or in some cases to and I would, at earlier and earlier stages simply because we continue to advance the instruments to do so.

This is a science that will continue to advance, unrelated to the abortion issue......however softer hearts towards the fetus will be an inevitable byproduct.

Have you ever seen a video of an abortion Lars? You should see the little guy or girl squirm to get away. It's maybe the saddest thing I've ever seen and it sincerely breaks my heart just sitting here thinking about it. I spend a large portion of my life standing up to the innocent and the weak......it's the way I was raised and it's in my dna. Watching those little guys fight for their life and ultimately lose defies everything in my body and mind. And for what? Because she can't afford the child? It's a bad time in her life? The father is a loser? I'm not saying those are the only reasons, but they make up a lot of them, and it makes no sense to me since each of those are easily solved with adoption options.
What about rape, incest, or the mothers health ? None of those conditions matter to you at all? If they don't, then it's ironic someone who claims to value human life so much puts an embryo the size of a lime above a woman.
Where did I say I would rather kill the woman than the fetus?
But you are against abortion under any circumstances, right?
Gotta love assumptions.
It may be an assumption, and you may have in fact stated your opinion on this before, but I honestly can't recall you ever saying there were circumstances when you were ok with abortion.
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Mr Gray Sep 18 2016, 08:08 PM Post #313
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Sep 17 2016, 04:29 PM
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Sep 17 2016, 04:11 PM
It's difficult to imagine some new breakthrough in science that would lead most people to believe that something magical happens at the instant of conception. We have a good understanding about how the fertilized egg starts subdividing into more cells, and after a few days is already up to hundreds of cells. The process of the fetus' development is well understood biological science. What research is leading you to believe there is going to be some game changing breakthrough?
I don't think you're really considering the situation because of your steel framed view about this "moment of conception" issue which is only a small part of the abortion issue.

We are already seeing technology "bring the fetus to life" with the 3D images and the 3D videos are stunning. We are also starting to understand the cognitive and emotional state of the fetus more every day and they now have solid evidence of connections they are forming in the womb to people outside, particularly their mother's voice. We are seeing them respond to certain stimuli just like a newborn would, or in some cases to and I would, at earlier and earlier stages simply because we continue to advance the instruments to do so.

This is a science that will continue to advance, unrelated to the abortion issue......however softer hearts towards the fetus will be an inevitable byproduct.

Have you ever seen a video of an abortion Lars? You should see the little guy or girl squirm to get away. It's maybe the saddest thing I've ever seen and it sincerely breaks my heart just sitting here thinking about it. I spend a large portion of my life standing up to the innocent and the weak......it's the way I was raised and it's in my dna. Watching those little guys fight for their life and ultimately lose defies everything in my body and mind. And for what? Because she can't afford the child? It's a bad time in her life? The father is a loser? I'm not saying those are the only reasons, but they make up a lot of them, and it makes no sense to me since each of those are easily solved with adoption options.
What about rape, incest, or the mothers health ? None of those conditions matter to you at all? If they don't, then it's ironic someone who claims to value human life so much puts an embryo the size of a lime above a woman.
Where did I say I would rather kill the woman than the fetus?
But you are against abortion under any circumstances, right?
Gotta love assumptions.
It may be an assumption, and you may have in fact stated your opinion on this before, but I honestly can't recall you ever saying there were circumstances when you were ok with abortion.
It would have been good of mongo to know that also before making a stupid and derogatory comment towards me as well. But at least he threw in "the size of a lime" because that's super relevent.

I have addressed the issue of the mothers life being in danger multiple times. Pretty much everyone on here just sticks to the line of thinking assigned to their side of the spectrum (right or left) except Brum and I, so I guess that's why you just assume I do as well and block out the comments from me that show otherwise.

Anyway, there are situations in life where the loss of a life is inevitable or very highly likely. In those situations it is morally appropriate to make a decision as to which life is to be lost and which one is to be saved. This is not exclusive to abortion but would include it in an instance where it is medically necessary to end the life of the fetus if you choose to save the life of the mother.....in other words, one of them is going to die regardless. Other instances are self-defense situations, police situations, even certain traffic accident situations.

My wife and I have decided that if we were faced with that terrible reality, we would save the baby, but I do not fault anyone's opposing decision. It's comparable to the question of whether or not you would throw yourself in front of a vehicle or step in front of a bullet to save the life of your child. Most of you likely would. I know I would not hesitate.
Edited by Mr Gray, Sep 18 2016, 08:09 PM.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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brumdog44 Sep 18 2016, 08:20 PM Post #314
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Sep 18 2016, 01:18 AM
Mr Gray
Sep 17 2016, 10:35 PM


This is what we know now......but science is advance every day, and will likely discover more about what is going on with the fetus. Will they discover something that makes it seem human at 4 weeks...maybe not anytime soon, but discovering things that make it human at 8 weeks brings a lot more hearts and minds around to the realization that this is a human life, and we probably shouldn't be killing it.
No, that is not what we know now.
Yes it is.
Well then. Case closed.

Both of you posted links/quotes to support your side. Either of you actually read the other's post and have some useful commentary?
This is the thing: I never claimed 'knowing'. He did. I see no need to provide any commentary at all when he can just make claims that his info is definitive when there is tons of scientific proof to refute it.
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dreachon Sep 18 2016, 09:00 PM Post #315
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Sep 17 2016, 04:11 PM
It's difficult to imagine some new breakthrough in science that would lead most people to believe that something magical happens at the instant of conception. We have a good understanding about how the fertilized egg starts subdividing into more cells, and after a few days is already up to hundreds of cells. The process of the fetus' development is well understood biological science. What research is leading you to believe there is going to be some game changing breakthrough?
I don't think you're really considering the situation because of your steel framed view about this "moment of conception" issue which is only a small part of the abortion issue.

We are already seeing technology "bring the fetus to life" with the 3D images and the 3D videos are stunning. We are also starting to understand the cognitive and emotional state of the fetus more every day and they now have solid evidence of connections they are forming in the womb to people outside, particularly their mother's voice. We are seeing them respond to certain stimuli just like a newborn would, or in some cases to and I would, at earlier and earlier stages simply because we continue to advance the instruments to do so.

This is a science that will continue to advance, unrelated to the abortion issue......however softer hearts towards the fetus will be an inevitable byproduct.

Have you ever seen a video of an abortion Lars? You should see the little guy or girl squirm to get away. It's maybe the saddest thing I've ever seen and it sincerely breaks my heart just sitting here thinking about it. I spend a large portion of my life standing up to the innocent and the weak......it's the way I was raised and it's in my dna. Watching those little guys fight for their life and ultimately lose defies everything in my body and mind. And for what? Because she can't afford the child? It's a bad time in her life? The father is a loser? I'm not saying those are the only reasons, but they make up a lot of them, and it makes no sense to me since each of those are easily solved with adoption options.
What about rape, incest, or the mothers health ? None of those conditions matter to you at all? If they don't, then it's ironic someone who claims to value human life so much puts an embryo the size of a lime above a woman.
Where did I say I would rather kill the woman than the fetus?
But you are against abortion under any circumstances, right?
Gotta love assumptions.
It may be an assumption, and you may have in fact stated your opinion on this before, but I honestly can't recall you ever saying there were circumstances when you were ok with abortion.
It would have been good of mongo to know that also before making a stupid and derogatory comment towards me as well. But at least he threw in "the size of a lime" because that's super relevent.

I have addressed the issue of the mothers life being in danger multiple times. Pretty much everyone on here just sticks to the line of thinking assigned to their side of the spectrum (right or left) except Brum and I, so I guess that's why you just assume I do as well and block out the comments from me that show otherwise.

Anyway, there are situations in life where the loss of a life is inevitable or very highly likely. In those situations it is morally appropriate to make a decision as to which life is to be lost and which one is to be saved. This is not exclusive to abortion but would include it in an instance where it is medically necessary to end the life of the fetus if you choose to save the life of the mother.....in other words, one of them is going to die regardless. Other instances are self-defense situations, police situations, even certain traffic accident situations.

My wife and I have decided that if we were faced with that terrible reality, we would save the baby, but I do not fault anyone's opposing decision. It's comparable to the question of whether or not you would throw yourself in front of a vehicle or step in front of a bullet to save the life of your child. Most of you likely would. I know I would not hesitate.
To be fair, we've a had a bunch of discussions on abortion. There must be thousands of comments in countless threads at this point. I wouldn't expect everyone to memorize everyone else's statements...and I didn't when RKL asked me what my opinion was earlier in this thread.
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