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Dallas shootings
Tweet Topic Started: Jul 7 2016, 10:20 PM (556 Views)
brumdog44 Jul 11 2016, 02:30 PM Post #31
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Mr Gray
Jul 11 2016, 12:30 PM
HoosierLars
Jul 11 2016, 09:26 AM
mongo
Jul 10 2016, 01:36 PM
HoosierLars
Jul 10 2016, 12:55 PM
brumdog44
Jul 9 2016, 11:11 PM
In terms of protest events in Chicago about neighborhood crime and black-on-black violence....those happen. All the time.

https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20151201/downtown/chicagoans-actually-do-protest-violence-their-communities-all-time
Those demonstrations are very small. The bottom of that link shows a recent large demonstration protesting bad cops. Anyone who thinks bad cops are the main problem are in fact part of the problem.
But why can't some admit they're a problem at all?
I don't know, but I'm quick to acknowledge that there are bad actors in all professions, e.g. bad cops, bad QB's, bad auto repair mechanics, and bad Indiana math teachers. Let's stick with bad Indiana math teachers. If the media, BLM, and Democrat politicians are always carping about bad teachers, is it going to make more or less people want to become teachers, and are they going to be more or less motivated? Right, we end up with less teachers who are less motivated, which means the quality of math education gets worse. It's a similar phenomenon with cops. Prosecute and fire the bad cops while focusing on the good ones, and what a good job they do for society.
Not to speak for dreach, but I'm guessing he agrees with your statement mostly, but the problem is that the bad cops aren't always being fired or prosecuted as they should.
Any job with pay not commensurate with the importance of its service is going to bring a lack of quality workers, or at least a shortage. Throw in extra scrutiny and the numbers drop further. While there certainly aren't marches against bad math teachers like there are against policemen and the scrutiny isn't the same, there has been a pushback against education. I know Lars is against collective bargaining for teachers; Indiana has recently limited bargaining power and there is a HUGE shortage of teachers in Indiana. There are currently over 1,100 job openings posted on the Indiana department of education for Indiana teaching jobs.....and not every school posts there.

A very interesting idea I read about is that when there is heavy military involvement overseas, we end up with a shortage of police officers. Our involvement in Iraq and then Afghanistan certainly probably eliminated some quality applicants as they were serving military duty.

Gray is correct (I believe) in what dreach's feelings are.....the problem isn't that that 'bad cops' exist, but rather the system does nothing to change that and ends up protecting them. I know Lars feels this happens in education as well, but I can say there have at least been steps made to try to correct that in Indiana.

It's also worth noting that if a bad quarterback doesn't do his job, a team might lose a game. If a bad policeman doesn't do his job, people's lives area at stake.
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brumdog44 Jul 11 2016, 02:40 PM Post #32
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What does sicken me about some of the protests is that the right targets aren't being identified. The protests should be about getting police leadership and the district attorney's office to properly job delinquent officers. In Baton Rouge, where some protesters were throwing rocks and molotov cocktails from an overpass (CNN has a video of this), this will only accomplish the opposite effect.
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dreachon Jul 11 2016, 03:29 PM Post #33
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brumdog44
Jul 11 2016, 02:30 PM
Mr Gray
Jul 11 2016, 12:30 PM
HoosierLars
Jul 11 2016, 09:26 AM
mongo
Jul 10 2016, 01:36 PM
HoosierLars
Jul 10 2016, 12:55 PM
brumdog44
Jul 9 2016, 11:11 PM
In terms of protest events in Chicago about neighborhood crime and black-on-black violence....those happen. All the time.

https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20151201/downtown/chicagoans-actually-do-protest-violence-their-communities-all-time
Those demonstrations are very small. The bottom of that link shows a recent large demonstration protesting bad cops. Anyone who thinks bad cops are the main problem are in fact part of the problem.
But why can't some admit they're a problem at all?
I don't know, but I'm quick to acknowledge that there are bad actors in all professions, e.g. bad cops, bad QB's, bad auto repair mechanics, and bad Indiana math teachers. Let's stick with bad Indiana math teachers. If the media, BLM, and Democrat politicians are always carping about bad teachers, is it going to make more or less people want to become teachers, and are they going to be more or less motivated? Right, we end up with less teachers who are less motivated, which means the quality of math education gets worse. It's a similar phenomenon with cops. Prosecute and fire the bad cops while focusing on the good ones, and what a good job they do for society.
Not to speak for dreach, but I'm guessing he agrees with your statement mostly, but the problem is that the bad cops aren't always being fired or prosecuted as they should.
Any job with pay not commensurate with the importance of its service is going to bring a lack of quality workers, or at least a shortage. Throw in extra scrutiny and the numbers drop further. While there certainly aren't marches against bad math teachers like there are against policemen and the scrutiny isn't the same, there has been a pushback against education. I know Lars is against collective bargaining for teachers; Indiana has recently limited bargaining power and there is a HUGE shortage of teachers in Indiana. There are currently over 1,100 job openings posted on the Indiana department of education for Indiana teaching jobs.....and not every school posts there.

A very interesting idea I read about is that when there is heavy military involvement overseas, we end up with a shortage of police officers. Our involvement in Iraq and then Afghanistan certainly probably eliminated some quality applicants as they were serving military duty.

Gray is correct (I believe) in what dreach's feelings are.....the problem isn't that that 'bad cops' exist, but rather the system does nothing to change that and ends up protecting them. I know Lars feels this happens in education as well, but I can say there have at least been steps made to try to correct that in Indiana.

It's also worth noting that if a bad quarterback doesn't do his job, a team might lose a game. If a bad policeman doesn't do his job, people's lives area at stake.
You and Gray are right. I feel like it's the root of the problem that causes an increasing loop of all the other problems.
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dreachon Jul 12 2016, 06:43 AM Post #34
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North Carolina Governor signs a new law that says police body cam footage is no longer public record and cannot be viewed without a court order. Sigh.

http://abc11.com/politics/new-law-makes-police-cam-footage-off-limits-to-public/1422569/
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Mr Gray Jul 12 2016, 07:33 AM Post #35
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dreachon
Jul 12 2016, 06:43 AM
North Carolina Governor signs a new law that says police body cam footage is no longer public record and cannot be viewed without a court order. Sigh.

http://abc11.com/politics/new-law-makes-police-cam-footage-off-limits-to-public/1422569/
Is it a privacy concern?
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon Jul 12 2016, 08:59 AM Post #36
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Mr Gray
Jul 12 2016, 07:33 AM
dreachon
Jul 12 2016, 06:43 AM
North Carolina Governor signs a new law that says police body cam footage is no longer public record and cannot be viewed without a court order. Sigh.

http://abc11.com/politics/new-law-makes-police-cam-footage-off-limits-to-public/1422569/
Is it a privacy concern?
Seems just like another measure to keep police from being held accountable to me.
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rkl15 Jul 12 2016, 09:44 AM Post #37
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dreachon
Jul 12 2016, 08:59 AM
Mr Gray
Jul 12 2016, 07:33 AM
dreachon
Jul 12 2016, 06:43 AM
North Carolina Governor signs a new law that says police body cam footage is no longer public record and cannot be viewed without a court order. Sigh.

http://abc11.com/politics/new-law-makes-police-cam-footage-off-limits-to-public/1422569/
Is it a privacy concern?
Seems just like another measure to keep police from being held accountable to me.
More of a privacy concern if you ask me.
Not of the officer, but of whoever they are "filming".

If you had an encounter with an officer, would you really want "anybody" to obtain the
officer's footage?


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Mr Gray Jul 12 2016, 10:27 AM Post #38
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dreachon
Jul 12 2016, 08:59 AM
Mr Gray
Jul 12 2016, 07:33 AM
dreachon
Jul 12 2016, 06:43 AM
North Carolina Governor signs a new law that says police body cam footage is no longer public record and cannot be viewed without a court order. Sigh.

http://abc11.com/politics/new-law-makes-police-cam-footage-off-limits-to-public/1422569/
Is it a privacy concern?
Seems just like another measure to keep police from being held accountable to me.
depends on how difficult or simple it is to obtain it. I personally don't think that just anyone should be able to get it and see it....see RLK's comments.
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The body knows what fighters don't: how to protect itself. A neck can only twist so far. Twist it just a hair more and the body says, "Hey, I'll take it from here because you obviously don't know what you're doing... Lie down now, rest, and we'll talk about this when you regain your senses." It's called the knockout mechanism.
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dreachon Jul 12 2016, 10:49 AM Post #39
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Mr Gray
Jul 12 2016, 10:27 AM
dreachon
Jul 12 2016, 08:59 AM
Mr Gray
Jul 12 2016, 07:33 AM
dreachon
Jul 12 2016, 06:43 AM
North Carolina Governor signs a new law that says police body cam footage is no longer public record and cannot be viewed without a court order. Sigh.

http://abc11.com/politics/new-law-makes-police-cam-footage-off-limits-to-public/1422569/
Is it a privacy concern?
Seems just like another measure to keep police from being held accountable to me.
depends on how difficult or simple it is to obtain it. I personally don't think that just anyone should be able to get it and see it....see RLK's comments.
There certainly are ways to protect someone's privacy while not sealing the video. Seems like a poor excuse.
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sirbrianwilson Jul 12 2016, 11:35 AM Post #40
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The difficulty is in the amount of administrative hours it takes to release even just one hour of footage. There are privacy and protection of minor issues that come into play when making police video public. Let's say you were concerned that a particular officer was abusing his powers and you wanted to look into how he conducts his business on a given shift. Each shift is 8 hours and in most bigger cities, those 8 hours consist of fielding calls most of the time.

In order for the video records from that shift to be released, it has to be passed through a public records specialist who then has to review and edit the video to ensure that they aren't violating privacy policies (i.e. blurring out the faces of minors, etc). Video editing of this nature, on a shaky camera, takes time and typically a level of expertise police departments aren't already equipped with.

Now consider the amount of record requests a police department receives in a given year. The department my father worked at for 36 years served an area with about 50,000 people. In his final year of working there, the department had received over 14,000 public records requests...in just a single year.

The point of this is that it's easy to mistake a department's hesitance on this subject as trying to hide something rather than an administrative and cost concern. Once you open up that door, there's no stopping someone from requesting all footage for x amount of years for officers Q, R, & S. The cost of that can be huge....and, yes, every major city has watchdog citizens that do this all the time...

That said, there has to be a way to make body cam footage more accessible to the public. For example, if use of force above a certain threshold was used during a call, that flags the video and makes it available....

br
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brumdog44 Jul 12 2016, 11:37 AM Post #41
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rkl15
Jul 12 2016, 09:44 AM
dreachon
Jul 12 2016, 08:59 AM
Mr Gray
Jul 12 2016, 07:33 AM
dreachon
Jul 12 2016, 06:43 AM
North Carolina Governor signs a new law that says police body cam footage is no longer public record and cannot be viewed without a court order. Sigh.

http://abc11.com/politics/new-law-makes-police-cam-footage-off-limits-to-public/1422569/
Is it a privacy concern?
Seems just like another measure to keep police from being held accountable to me.
More of a privacy concern if you ask me.
Not of the officer, but of whoever they are "filming".

If you had an encounter with an officer, would you really want "anybody" to obtain the
officer's footage?


If the signed law was about privacy, it would require the person's consent for the public to view the video. Instead, it requires a court order.

Which means that a court could make public a video of an individual who does not want it to be made public. It's not about privacy.
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rkl15 Jul 12 2016, 12:24 PM Post #42
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brumdog44
Jul 12 2016, 11:37 AM
rkl15
Jul 12 2016, 09:44 AM
dreachon
Jul 12 2016, 08:59 AM
Mr Gray
Jul 12 2016, 07:33 AM
dreachon
Jul 12 2016, 06:43 AM
North Carolina Governor signs a new law that says police body cam footage is no longer public record and cannot be viewed without a court order. Sigh.

http://abc11.com/politics/new-law-makes-police-cam-footage-off-limits-to-public/1422569/
Is it a privacy concern?
Seems just like another measure to keep police from being held accountable to me.
More of a privacy concern if you ask me.
Not of the officer, but of whoever they are "filming".

If you had an encounter with an officer, would you really want "anybody" to obtain the
officer's footage?


If the signed law was about privacy, it would require the person's consent for the public to view the video. Instead, it requires a court order.

Which means that a court could make public a video of an individual who does not want it to be made public. It's not about privacy.
So you are ok with the "Public" being able to walk in and watch any officer's body cam footage?

I'm sure you have cameras at school.
Can the public come in and view it?

There has to be some rules and guidelines when it comes to this information.
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dreachon Jul 12 2016, 12:24 PM Post #43
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Good points Bri and Brum.

Aren't these body cams only turned on when an officer is actually responding to a call? I suppose that would limit the amount of work, but not enough.
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brumdog44 Jul 12 2016, 12:52 PM Post #44
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rkl15
Jul 12 2016, 12:24 PM
brumdog44
Jul 12 2016, 11:37 AM
rkl15
Jul 12 2016, 09:44 AM
dreachon
Jul 12 2016, 08:59 AM
Mr Gray
Jul 12 2016, 07:33 AM
dreachon
Jul 12 2016, 06:43 AM
North Carolina Governor signs a new law that says police body cam footage is no longer public record and cannot be viewed without a court order. Sigh.

http://abc11.com/politics/new-law-makes-police-cam-footage-off-limits-to-public/1422569/
Is it a privacy concern?
Seems just like another measure to keep police from being held accountable to me.
More of a privacy concern if you ask me.
Not of the officer, but of whoever they are "filming".

If you had an encounter with an officer, would you really want "anybody" to obtain the
officer's footage?


If the signed law was about privacy, it would require the person's consent for the public to view the video. Instead, it requires a court order.

Which means that a court could make public a video of an individual who does not want it to be made public. It's not about privacy.
So you are ok with the "Public" being able to walk in and watch any officer's body cam footage?

I'm sure you have cameras at school.
Can the public come in and view it?

There has to be some rules and guidelines when it comes to this information.
What you are saying literally has nothing to do with what I posted. You also ignored what I said about rules and guidelines -- if it's about privacy, then the guidelines START with the person being filmed -- not the court -- having the ability to release said film.

You said that the 'released through court order' was a privacy issue. If it is released through court order as opposed to the person who is being filmed signing to release the information, that is the opposite of a privacy issue.

If it is truly a privacy issue, it would be left up to the person being filmed whether or not it would be released. The law in question doesn't make that a condition -- it allows the courts to decide for the individual. You say 'if you were the person being filmed, would you want the filming to be made public'?

That's a pretty easy question to answer if you feel that you have not been dealt with in a negligent manner. Most people in that situation WOULD want it to be made public. So why not leave it up to the individual being filmed if they want it released? If the point of the use of body cams is protection of both the police and the public, why would the public NOT have the right to make themselves being filmed public?

The school cam issue you are talking about, I assume, you know is apples and oranges. We are talking about minors which basically ends that argument.
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rkl15 Jul 12 2016, 01:15 PM Post #45
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brumdog44
Jul 12 2016, 12:52 PM
rkl15
Jul 12 2016, 12:24 PM
brumdog44
Jul 12 2016, 11:37 AM
rkl15
Jul 12 2016, 09:44 AM
dreachon
Jul 12 2016, 08:59 AM
Mr Gray
Jul 12 2016, 07:33 AM
dreachon
Jul 12 2016, 06:43 AM
North Carolina Governor signs a new law that says police body cam footage is no longer public record and cannot be viewed without a court order. Sigh.

http://abc11.com/politics/new-law-makes-police-cam-footage-off-limits-to-public/1422569/
Is it a privacy concern?
Seems just like another measure to keep police from being held accountable to me.
More of a privacy concern if you ask me.
Not of the officer, but of whoever they are "filming".

If you had an encounter with an officer, would you really want "anybody" to obtain the
officer's footage?


If the signed law was about privacy, it would require the person's consent for the public to view the video. Instead, it requires a court order.

Which means that a court could make public a video of an individual who does not want it to be made public. It's not about privacy.
So you are ok with the "Public" being able to walk in and watch any officer's body cam footage?

I'm sure you have cameras at school.
Can the public come in and view it?

There has to be some rules and guidelines when it comes to this information.
What you are saying literally has nothing to do with what I posted. You also ignored what I said about rules and guidelines -- if it's about privacy, then the guidelines START with the person being filmed -- not the court -- having the ability to release said film.

You said that the 'released through court order' was a privacy issue. If it is released through court order as opposed to the person who is being filmed signing to release the information, that is the opposite of a privacy issue.

If it is truly a privacy issue, it would be left up to the person being filmed whether or not it would be released. The law in question doesn't make that a condition -- it allows the courts to decide for the individual. You say 'if you were the person being filmed, would you want the filming to be made public'?

That's a pretty easy question to answer if you feel that you have not been dealt with in a negligent manner. Most people in that situation WOULD want it to be made public. So why not leave it up to the individual being filmed if they want it released? If the point of the use of body cams is protection of both the police and the public, why would the public NOT have the right to make themselves being filmed public?

The school cam issue you are talking about, I assume, you know is apples and oranges. We are talking about minors which basically ends that argument.
Missed the whole "You or your voice" line.

If I am filmed, I would say yes, I should be able to obtain footage of "me".
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