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Who won?
Pro Feminism (Claire and Kiris) 1 (16.7%)
Anti Feminism (Warlizard and Hand) 5 (83.3%)
Total Votes: 6
Feminism debate
Topic Started: Jan 12 2017, 04:25 PM (84 Views)
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http://s15.zetaboards.com/PC_Deliberations/topic/10101031/1/ - Discussion

Everyone who didn't participate in the debate itself should read this thread before posting in its entirety. Who do you think was the most persuasive and made the better arguments as pertaining to each individual question? Who answered critical questions better? Who provided accurate studies to support their more objective claims?

To make this poll as accurate as possible, I will be counting results in posts, not results from the poll above. Everyone is allowed to vote and comment here except for those who were involved.
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Chaos

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Jan 12 2017, 04:25 PM
http://s15.zetaboards.com/PC_Deliberations/topic/10101031/1/ - Discussion

Everyone who didn't participate in the debate itself should read this thread before posting in its entirety. Who do you think was the most persuasive and made the better arguments as pertaining to each individual question? Who answered critical questions better? Who provided accurate studies to support their more objective claims?

To make this poll as accurate as possible, I will be counting results in posts, not results from the poll above. Everyone is allowed to vote and comment here except for those who were involved.
The first question was about defining feminism. I felt that the con side put more effort into answering this question where the pro side used textbook definitions. For the second question on how feminism works to achieve its goals I felt that both sides made good points and Claire's post was much much more detailed, however I can personally resonate with what Warlizard said which really hit home with me. The fact remains that even if what Claire wrote in her post is true, that doesn't excuse the fact that feminist ideology does nothing physically and actively to help men. Kiris' post after Claire's also fails to address or do anything in regards to the fact that feminism does nothing actively or physically to help men. Have they considered that if the movement had a concrete physical foundation that helped both genders instead of just women then maybe that would encourage men to get involved? Oh and Warlizard absolutely destroyed Claire on question 3 and question 4 while Claire seemed way less interested in the conversation and wrote very short and seemingly effortless posts so not a good performance by her and whether or not she was busy doesn't really excuse it. Finally question 5 I'd say was one by Warlizard and Hand again because their answers were more based on reality while Claire's was based on theory and what could potentially happen if x and z were to occur... and finally we had Claire make up excuses to attempt to defend the wage gap lie and then Hand destroyed Claire at the final question and she responded by posting a link which she didn't even quote from so for all we know she may not have even read it. Lazy performance by Claire and her partner, and the winners were obviously Andrew and Hand here and even they could have done a better job. So I rate the debate a 4/10 but with Andrew and Hand as the clear winners.


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First question: What is feminism?

Claire and Kiris answered using dictionary definitions, that is true. That is not a bad thing if that's what they believe and if I wanted a summary I would have asked for one instead. I don't think there's any clear winner here as I was asking both teams how they viewed feminism which is not an argument.

Second question: How do you feel feminism works to achieve its supposed goal of equality between the sexes?

Team B (Con) addresses the points that feminists don't tackle men's issues and female advantages therefor feminism does nothing to achieve equality. Claire wrote a very informative and long post explaining how she feels feminism does fight to achieve equality for women and for men. Her post was much more detailed and highlighted some of the many gendered issues that exist both for women and for men. Kiris then went on to add that feminism is particularly important in certain countries where women have less rights than they do in the west. Team A wins this round easily for being more informative and detailed.

Team A


Third question: Do you feel that feminist teachings should continue to be taught in colleges / universities? Why or why not?

Claire's main point is that change can be made first through education. I like that point. Andrew goes on to explain how feminist teachings are often dishonest and don't address the full picture, such feminists trying to get women into STEM jobs while ignoring jobs that are dirty and dangerous. I think it is absolutely fair to scrutinize feminist studies, everything deserves to be questioned, so for that I give this round to team B.

Team B

Fourth question: Is there a rape culture or is it a myth?

While I agree with Claire's point that doesn't change the fact that rapists will always exist because humankind isn't perfect. In my opinion women do have to learn how to defend themselves no matter how much feminists may not want to see it that way. If they are worried about this sort of thing because when a rapist makes his move there won't be a police man in sight.

Team B

Fifth question: How do you envision America in a feminist society?

I felt that both responses to this question had a degree of bias. Claire pictures a feminist society as sort of an egalitarian utopic society. Handyman sees it as a gynocracy where women have more rights than men. I see myself more in agreement with Claire, because in a feminist society men would be feminists too so it's only reasonable to believe that gender relations would improve in such an environment so things would surely look good for men too in such a society.

Team A

Wage Gap Question: I am not sure it's an important issue rather or not women are 'socialized' into being less ambitious workers because it's something that revolves around choice and not oppression and I see it as a non-issue for the most part. I don't fully agree with Claire here.

Egalitarian Question: Warlizard's response of "Obviously men aren't going to join a movement that helps the other sex and marginalizes the other." really hits the nail on the lead as to why men aren't too fond of feminism and prefer the label egalitarian.


Team B

I feel that Team B had a 3/5 win over Team A, however Team A destroyed team B on the second question. Team A also provided a link whereas team B provided none whatsoever, and Team A was much more persuasive whereas team B had a more aggressive style. I think both sides could have done better especially team A who had a few great posts and many weak posts that seemingly lacked effort. Ruling this a stalemate.
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Chris Nguyen

I think warlizard and master hand seemed like they knew more of what they were talking about with more certainty and the other team was saying things they read online so the con team was much more persuasive but the pro team seemed more intelligent and well written at least that was how i saw it until the topic of rape culture which sounded retarded more then anything. I vote for the con team because despite seeming angrier they seemed to make way more sense on rape culture and wage gap and then u realize they seem to make more sense on every topic in the debate and they made feminism look completely retarded in the end of it
Edited by Chris Nguyen, Jan 13 2017, 01:37 AM.
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Claire386
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Jan 12 2017, 08:45 PM
First question: What is feminism?

Claire and Kiris answered using dictionary definitions, that is true. That is not a bad thing if that's what they believe and if I wanted a summary I would have asked for one instead. I don't think there's any clear winner here as I was asking both teams how they viewed feminism which is not an argument.

Second question: How do you feel feminism works to achieve its supposed goal of equality between the sexes?

Team B (Con) addresses the points that feminists don't tackle men's issues and female advantages therefor feminism does nothing to achieve equality. Claire wrote a very informative and long post explaining how she feels feminism does fight to achieve equality for women and for men. Her post was much more detailed and highlighted some of the many gendered issues that exist both for women and for men. Kiris then went on to add that feminism is particularly important in certain countries where women have less rights than they do in the west. Team A wins this round easily for being more informative and detailed.

Team A


Third question: Do you feel that feminist teachings should continue to be taught in colleges / universities? Why or why not?

Claire's main point is that change can be made first through education. I like that point. Andrew goes on to explain how feminist teachings are often dishonest and don't address the full picture, such feminists trying to get women into STEM jobs while ignoring jobs that are dirty and dangerous. I think it is absolutely fair to scrutinize feminist studies, everything deserves to be questioned, so for that I give this round to team B.

Team B

Fourth question: Is there a rape culture or is it a myth?

While I agree with Claire's point that doesn't change the fact that rapists will always exist because humankind isn't perfect. In my opinion women do have to learn how to defend themselves no matter how much feminists may not want to see it that way. If they are worried about this sort of thing because when a rapist makes his move there won't be a police man in sight.

Team B

Fifth question: How do you envision America in a feminist society?

I felt that both responses to this question had a degree of bias. Claire pictures a feminist society as sort of an egalitarian utopic society. Handyman sees it as a gynocracy where women have more rights than men. I see myself more in agreement with Claire, because in a feminist society men would be feminists too so it's only reasonable to believe that gender relations would improve in such an environment so things would surely look good for men too in such a society.

Team A

Wage Gap Question: I am not sure it's an important issue rather or not women are 'socialized' into being less ambitious workers because it's something that revolves around choice and not oppression and I see it as a non-issue for the most part. I don't fully agree with Claire here.

Egalitarian Question: Warlizard's response of "Obviously men aren't going to join a movement that helps the other sex and marginalizes the other." really hits the nail on the lead as to why men aren't too fond of feminism and prefer the label egalitarian.


Team B

I feel that Team B had a 3/5 win over Team A, however Team A destroyed team B on the second question. Team A also provided a link whereas team B provided none whatsoever, and Team A was much more persuasive whereas team B had a more aggressive style. I think both sides could have done better especially team A who had a few great posts and many weak posts that seemingly lacked effort. Ruling this a stalemate.
Your post is very helpful... thanks for the unbiased analysis and I feel bad about this now. There are many things I could have explained better and in more detail but I didn't have the time or the motivation to do so.

When we're discussing rape culture I really should have clarified that yes women should be encouraged to defend themselves, and I'm aware that some women lie about this sort of thing. I could have also explained that rape culture is a bigger problem in certain middle eastern and African nations and much less severe in the western world.

I think I the reason I didn't answer well with the egalitarian question is because if I'm going to be honest I didn't know how to answer that question and I have come to the realization a while ago that feminism really is a woman's movement even though it does help men in some ways. (Ways which men take for granted) :P

If we want to become a truly respected gender egalitarian movement we have to gain men's trust, because without that trust the movement will remain a polarizing force. I could have done better here even though I knew this entire time that chances of a pro feminist debater winning was low, and yet I dragged Addie into this knowing she had no time on her hands.

Probably not a big deal to her though but still.
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Kiris
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No no, it's my fault...

I wasn't in the mood for debating because I'm busy and my head has been killing me lately. :/
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System Of Disaster
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Team B wins this on every point except for question 2 no doubt about it, but the way I see it you can't defend feminism. It's a losing battle and the only way you can win given these questions is to write far more 'convincing bullshit' than the other team. There was no way to win Team A, so don't feel bad about your loss and certainly don't take it to heart. Feminism just doesn't look good to the majority of the world and falls under scrutiny.
Edited by System Of Disaster, Jan 12 2017, 09:17 PM.
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Kiris
Jan 12 2017, 09:07 PM
No no, it's my fault...

I wasn't in the mood for debating because I'm busy and my head has been killing me lately. :/
Ouch, what's wrong with your head?
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Zach
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Terrible debate lol

Warlizard and Hand just argued like they would any other argument and Claire and Kiris barely put any effort but still you can't defend feminism no matter how much you try anyway. Feminism is a shit stain of a movement. There are so many obviously flaws with it that it's embarrassing to even attempt to defend such an awful movement without looking ignorant, batshit insane, or disingenuous. It's people with the weakest brains who follow ideologies like feminism. It's mostly privileged young women from liberal households who attend universities who can't think for themselves who are convinced that the world is out to get them and they're very similar to Black Lives Matter and other far left ideologies in that respect.
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Kiris
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Jan 13 2017, 01:25 AM
Kiris
Jan 12 2017, 09:07 PM
No no, it's my fault...

I wasn't in the mood for debating because I'm busy and my head has been killing me lately. :/
Ouch, what's wrong with your head?
Migraines.. I don't know why. :(
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