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Day 2: Climbing the Mountain
Topic Started: Oct 23 2016, 10:46 PM (2,060 Views)
Claire Stanfield
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Baccano!
I suppose I grew complacent waiting for Sakuragi to respond but it's been quite a while without him showing up. As for convincing others to join that wagon, I generally have trouble doing that. I can state what I find suspicious and unhelpful. Who joins the wagon afterwards is up to everybody else. But I will say that Sakuragi's absence while several people are questioning him gives more reason for concern.

I had no issues with Lelouch's question about Guilmon but in hindsight I agree that there was little merit to it. Still, I don't see any ill intent. He's not really high on my list of suspects.

Isaac Dian
 
Questioning Sakuragi makes a bunch of sense though. As a player I try to think of the game from multiple angles so I'm hesitant to jump on a player just for describing something from the Mafia's perspective. It definitely merits further investigation though.
What is your stance on Sakuragi's post today that led me to vote for him? If he doesn't show up to respond anymore will you add your vote?
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Isaac Dian
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Baccano!
Claire Stanfield
Oct 25 2016, 09:26 AM
Isaac Dian
 
Questioning Sakuragi makes a bunch of sense though. As a player I try to think of the game from multiple angles so I'm hesitant to jump on a player just for describing something from the Mafia's perspective. It definitely merits further investigation though.
What is your stance on Sakuragi's post today that led me to vote for him? If he doesn't show up to respond anymore will you add your vote?
It's somewhat suspicious. It's one thing to say that we don't have a lot to go on, but it's another to advocate for idling our time away. Every post gives us a little more information- it makes no sense to just sit around hoping the detective will hit that 25% chance of finding a mafia before he dies. The absence since then is pretty off-putting too.

If I don't see an adequate defense put forward in the next 10 hours or so, I'm voting Sakuragi.
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Astro Boy
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Astro Boy
Greetings incase I don't get home before the day ends I am voting for someone who has been giving me bad vibes.

important question: What colour does your PM say bananas are?


hopefully I can add more input later today.
vote lynch: Hanamichi Sakuragi

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Dandy
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Space Dandy
Ok, so I now understand what I wasn´t getting in the discussion regarding Lelouch.

There were three main points in discussion, one regarding his general question, one regarding his question to Tenma, and another regarding his reasons for voting Guilmon.
The third isn´t even worth addressing. It´s basically a repetition of everything that came on the previous day.
About the first the same thing. I already gave my input on this one and agreed with Mimi.
About the second, I must agree with Tenma. Even reading only the quoted part that Lelouch had in his post, I honestly can´t understand how he took that as a defense for low activity players.
Tenmon didn´t even "modifying and expanding the meaning of that statement". What he "expanded" was already implied there, and even with the little misunderstanding that came with Sakuragi´s post, his idea is perfectly understandable.

Another thing I found weird is that, when confronted with Mimi´s #39 post regarding town/mafia views, he defends himself by saying he wanted to provide other reasons, which included the so said mafia view, alongside others.

Now assuming this is the D1 post Mimi´s talking about(#57):
"Remember Guilmon didn't post in Day Zero (my favorite day!) either. So it's been 33 hours that he hasn't posted, not 6. There's been no trace of him. At this point I still don't even know what series Guilmon is from.

There's no reason to not lynch him. We have a semi-open setup. The mafia knows we don't have any bombs and there are no Greens save the mods, so there would be no sense in them killing him as a "safe kill." Killing anyone else would be better for them.


And if he is absent mafia instead of absent town, well the better for us. There's this idea to keep him around for "safety in numbers," but if he is truly inactive then he just hinders us from lynching."


This was his third post of the Day. And the other two contained no justification for the Guilmon vote other than "you had 24 hours to show up".
So if you actually see some worth in Mimi´s logic, she actually had a point. The seconds justification Lelouch gave for the Guilmon vote had indeed a "mafia view".
He only expanded later on that after being confronted by Tenma about his stubbornness.

I´m a bit on the limbo with Lelouch over here, and in a way, especially regarding this last part of my post I actually think I might be over analyzing the situation.
While I see no ill intent on some of his actions, like the general question he made, I feel like it can also be an attempt to keep the conversation flowing in a river of uselessness. While I´m sure he doesn´t have a table next to him pointing every single reason he gave for lynching Guilmon and the order in which he presented them, he did say that the "mafia view" benefit was "one of his reasons" when it was the first after the obvious "you had time to show up".

@Lelouch:
What´s your take on this?

@Claire: How do you feel regarding Lelouch´s "misinterpretation" of Tenma´s quote.
If you need references, it´s in posts #22 to #29, #31 and #34.

@Astro Boy:
Welcome!
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Edward Weevil
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One Piece
My thought is that Hanamichi Sakuragi is not going for anyone because he has something to hide dont know much of him he may be a role townie or mafia i need more reading to know if i should lynch him or not
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Hinata Hyuga
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Naruto
With 12 players left, it takes 7 to lynch.

Hanamichi Sakuragi (3): Yoshikage Kira, Claire Stanfield, Astro Boy
Lelouch vi Britannia (2): Mimi, Dr. Tenma

Not Voting (7): Dandy, Edward Weevil, Hanamichi Sakuragi, Isaac Dian, Kakashi Hatake, Lelouch vi Britannia, Yuuki Rito
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Yuuki Rito
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To Love-ru
Dandy
Oct 25 2016, 06:16 AM
@Yuuki: If I told you that someone on Guilmonn´s wagon is a mafia member, who would you think that is?
You or Kakashi. You have the only direct link to Pappug, and Kakashi's vote on Weevil and how that situation was handled* are suspicious to me.

I feel off about Kira and Claire as well, but I'm not sure why.

* By this I mean how quickly he removed the vote on Weevil to go back to his original target when noticing that wagon was closing.

I'm somewhat starting to see value in the wagon yesterday. Thanks, Dandy.
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Claire Stanfield
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Baccano!
Dandy
 
@Claire: How do you feel regarding Lelouch´s "misinterpretation" of Tenma´s quote.
If you need references, it´s in posts #22 to #29, #31 and #34.
I reread all of Lelouch's earlier posts as well so here is some other info first.

On Day 1 post #57 Lelouch brings up the mafia kill which is what MImi had been referring to earlier. I don't think it's a scum tell on its own but as a Townie there's really no point to explain to the mafia what kind of kill would be safe for them. They can try to figure that out on their own. The thing is that as mafia there also isn't really a reason to so blatantly talk about the mafia kill. So the conclusion here is that it's just bad play.

Then on day 2 Lelouch is the first to analyze the Pappug kill and deems it sensible from the mafia PoV. But this is not too interesting, a couple other people say similar things.

So let's get to Lelouch's exchange with Dr. Tenma then.

Here's my understanding of it:

1) Sakuragi does not see merit in lynching the ianctive Guilmon because the mafia has several safe targets anway.
2) Dr. Tenma misinterprets that post and thinks that Sakuragi is looking to lynch inactive players as a safe 'kill'. He then catches his mistake.
3) Then on Day 2 Lelouch questions Dr. Tenma's first post while ignoring the one right after accusing him of creating an excuse for people to be less active.

My thoughts:

Even without Tenma's second post, it does seem like a reach for Lelouch to interpret it the way he does. I have to say that asking the doctor to clarify what he meant can never be scummy as it just forces the other player to engage more. But I can see that Lelouch doesn't relent after Tenma's explanation.

My conclusion:

I can read Lelouch's actions as a confused Townie but I can also see how he might appear as mafia trying to distract the Town and accusing another player without much basis. I But wouldn't mafia Lelouch have gone after an easier target if his goal was just to get somebody (mis)lynched? Astroboy who was barely around at the time, for example?

While I was writing this I realizd myself that I have been making excuses for all of Lelouch's actions. Excuses really shouldn't have to be made though if you're a helpful Townie. So I understand the votes on Lelouch. And still I'd rather lynch Sakuragi today because he just has not been around to answer our inquiries. Lelouch seems ready to defend himself and he'll probably still do so tomorrow.

What do the people on the Lelouch wagon think about that?
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Lelouch vi Britannia
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Code Geass
The "other" reasons to vote Guilmon were the ones already mentioned by Mimi and the others. For me, just the fact that he hadn't shown up was enough, but I was trying to look at other angles that hadn't been explored yet instead of just parroting what others had said. I've explained this at least twice today though!!

I'll give my views on the Tenma "misinterpretation" and the Basketball wagon before Day End.
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Lelouch vi Britannia
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Code Geass
As for Tenma's post, that is legitimately how I interpreted it. After spending most of the day trying to lynch an inactive and discouraging low activity, I was taken aback by someone saying "Lynching someone for low activity is a bad idea." Regardless of Sakuragi screwing up kill with lynch, Tenma still clearly stated this as his view. He further clarified that he didn't mean exactly what those words meant, but I wasn't immediately convinced, and said as much, to which he put a lynch vote on me for "being distracting." I didn't pursue this much further because any more back-and-forth between the 2 of us was going nowhere and I was waiting for others' input. As the quite a few players are now stating that they understood Tenma's intent from his words, I guess I can concede that that meaning was apparent. Its not that I don't agree with his explanation, it makes perfect sense as a view, it's just I didn't understand that from his first post. If it's just me who thinks that, then I will back down, as the numbers are suggesting I was wrong.
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