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Day 3: A Space Man Dies; You must read the original post to find out who's dead this time!
Topic Started: Oct 26 2016, 10:00 PM (2,271 Views)
Hinata Hyuga
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Naruto
The sun rose, and some of the adventurers began to wake. Three of the first to wake up--Kira, Tenma, and Rito--lingered outside the ship, chatting about what plans the "mods" might have for them day, when they heard a horrified scream, coming from the cave that led into the depths of the volcano. Immediately becoming concerned, they woke the rest of their crewmates, as well as their "mods", and headed into the cave to investigate, in too much of a haste to keep track of who all was with them.

They discovered that the scream had come from Mimi,
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It is now Day 3. You have up to 48 hours to achieve a lynch. WIth 10 players left, it takes 6 to lynch.
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Isaac Dian
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Baccano!
Damnit, I liked Dandy.

Just want to apologize to everyone for ending the last day a little early and cutting off last minute discussion. I was weighing holding off for further debate against following through on what I had said previously about when I would vote lynch. Sorry about that.

Also, just a heads up, I'll be doing a lot of traveling tomorrow so I'll be pretty active but for the next several days after that I'll be quite busy. I'll do my best to get in a few posts each day but please don't take a reduction in activity as a sign of suspicious behavior.

And don't worry, Claire, I won't cause any trouble on the train.
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Lelouch vi Britannia
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Code Geass
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Greeting Citizens! You might think that we are having a live conversation, but this is actually a pre-recorded video message. I've already anticipated what the other crew members might ask of me and have made my responses. With 24 hours to prepare my response (and actual IRL proper free time for once), I did my best to explain myself in a coherent way. My hope is that we can make the most of this day by having this conversation now, rather than in pieces and dragged out across another whole day as the mafia would prefer.

Let us begin.

Concerned citizen
 
Lelouch, on Day 1 you lay the first vote on Guilmon. Later, when the mods said he might get a replacment, you refused to remove your vote. What gives?


Yes, I voted Guilmon. He was inactive. As opposed to some of my crewmates, I view Day 0 as a proper day, so not appearing seems like 24 hours absence to me. In my opinion, nothing has been harming the town more this game than inactivity. We should obviously not allow it. But when half the crew barely posts, what can you do?
I kept my vote, not out of "stubbornness" or "keeping a stance to seem more town-like", but because I was truly wary that a replacement would actually come. I didn't want to disassemble that wagon and not be able to build it back again. And what do you know? My cynicism turned out to be accurate.

Tenma
 
You reasoned that we should lynch the inactive "the mafia is less likely to kill an inactive in a semi-open setup than a closed setup." But see, they are equally unlikely to kill inactives in either setup. Regardless of setup it is a straight up bad play for mafia to get rid of AWOL players so the current setup doesn't provide additional justification for lynching Guilmon.

First of all, my main reason to lynch him was his inactivity. Secondly, if this "proves" anything, it would be that I don't have good reasoning skills. I still think that the mafia would be slightly more likely to kill an inactive in a closed setup, simply on the merits of it being a safer kill (whereas in this game I was expecting them to go after the more active, because they have nothing much to fear in terms of powers such as bombs). But this hypothetical debate isn't very helpful. Even if they aren't more likely to go after the inactive in this setup, the inactive still deserves to be lynched. This we all agree.

Keep in mind, at this point, this "poor reasoning" and the fact that I didn't budge on getting rid of Guilmon were the only issues brought up against me. But somehow, this was enough to make certain people think I was suspicious, and possibly the mafia.

Mafia plant?
 
You justified your reasoning for lynching inactives more from a mafia perspective than a town. Is this because you are in fact the mafia?


No, it is because I am in fact town, but any player should try to observe things from as many angles as possible (something I have failed in my Tenma misinterpretation COMING UP SOON!). A mafia tries to think like a townie to better blend in, a townie tries to think like a mafia to determine what scumminess they might be up to and who might be in danger.

Now some people have misinterpreted this as my only reason I voted Guilmon. That is incorrect. My main reason was him not showing up. There were several reasons already stated to lynch inactive players.

The most obvious ones were brought up by Mimi:
Mimi
 
Bottom line is that I find a larger group of loose activity to be less useful down the line than a smaller group of actually active individuals. Otherwise at one point the valuable ones get knocked out and we are at the mercy of inactive to even lynch.

Also, natural observation throughout the progress of the game means a lot less if we establish that it is fine for people to hang along being unhelpful. Gives us less to work with, not more.


Pappug
 
No, I think 24 hours is plenty of time to come on and with this kind of setup lynching is our best and only weapon in discovering Mafia. Well, besides reading and analyzing posts of course but if the user isn't posting what's there to read?


Yuuki Rito
 
I agree with Mimi here. Guilmon is more than useless right now, but if he lasts another day like this than he becomes dangerous to keep around.


Claire
 
Choosing to forego a lynch will not at all bear new information on the day after. Odds are the mafia kill will be hard to make anything of, this early on. And there might not even be a cop among us. So put me in the pro lynch camp.



So for those who wanted to lynch Guilmon, besides a lot of agreeing with Mimi, there was not much new being discussed. I didn't want to come and just say "Yeah, good reasoning guys." I was trying to bring up anything about Guilmon that hadn't yet been discussed.

So first off, I noticed many people were saying that the day was young, only around 5 hours had passed. Which is why I said, "No, he also didn't show up on Day 0. Which means he hasn't shown up at all in the past 33 hours! (Day 0 was 27-28 hours long.)

Then, expanding on the idea that an inactive would be a hindrance, I noted that I find it extremely unlikely that the mafia would get rid of our problem for us, especially since they know that nobody is dangerous for them to kill.

Finally I tried to dismiss the "safety in numbers" argument that was also floating around.



Concerned citizen
 
Why would you waste everyone's time asking about Day 1 and Guilmon? Your question was bad and you should feel bad.


Didn't expect this to receive so much backlash! So first of all, Dr. Tenma asks this general question on Day 1, with about 27 hours left in the day:
Dr. Tenma
 
Question to people who are/were considering voting Guilmon: do you still want to lynch him at this stage and if not, is your next option to vote no lynch?


ONLY MIMI AND I ANSWERED THIS QUESTION. Not much else notable happened after that. Then Guilmon got lynched.
My strongest and most inflexible position has been - and will continue to be - against inactivity. First thing I note on Day 2 is that Papugg, a low posting player, has died. I say that everyone needs to communicate more, not to give the mafia more opportunities to slip through the cracks or get these easy untraceable kills. With little conversation happening elsewhere, and few leads from Papugg's death, I thought it would be good to continue from where we left off the previous day. You see, Mimi had a very clear stance noted. By his vote on Weevil, my interpretation of Kakashi's stance bothered me to the point that I had to call him out on it. But the rest? Mostly fuzzy stances, easily tweaked to suit the players' future needs. So I wanted to get a reference point - something to hold the rest of the players by, and use to determine future scumslips.
I feared, though, that if I asked the exact same question: "If you didn't want to vote Guilmon, would you have gone with no lynch?" it would be pointless, because besides a few No-lynchers, most of the players would probably say "But I did want to lynch him!" And that wasn't even the point of the question.
So instead, I asked, "Had Guilmon's replacement shown up at least 6 hours before the Day End, would you have then voted No Lynch or pursued another lynch?" I.e. the same scenario, but no reason to lynch Guilmon. The 6 hours was arbitrary; I put it there as it seemed like a reasonable amount of time to me to determine scuminess, and to prevent useless answers such as "No, I wouldn't lynch anyone because there was no time." The true purpose of the question was getting the answer to this: "With sufficient time, would you rather vote for No Lynch or pursue a lynch on Day 1? And why?" I also was trying to use this question to call out the majority of player who ignored it the day before.


Enthusiastic Citizen
 
You write in one font size bigger (and purple), clearly a college-like technique of "fluffing" up your posts to make them seem longer and more full of substance than they actually are.


Most observant of you. But sadly, no. The purple is obviously a flavor choice ('cuz you can't handle....my purple eyes). The bigger font is to make the purple font more legible in the darker themes, and also a nod to the posting style on AP of one of our mods.


Observant Townie
 
You seemed uninterested in Sakuragi at first, yet there you go at the end of the day almost hammering him. If you were mafia, you'd know he was a Townie. You participated in 2 mislynches!


Well first off, I don't think anyone regrets lynching Guilmon. As for Sakuragi, he barely posted so I didn't really have a good read on him, and anyway the majority of my posts and focus was concerned with Tenma and Mimi. In terms of inactivity, Astroboy was worse, and I did try to call him out on it, but got mod-rejected. Anyway, once I reread his posts I realized that I agreed with the others; and, at the very least, he was the most inactive player, not bothering to answer any questions or vote anyone. He had barely shown up or posted in 48 hours.

If anything, the fact that I didn't vote on him till the end is a point in my favor, because if I was the mafia, I would have known in advance he was Townie and tried to kickstart that wagon earlier in the day, when it wasn't so apparent he would get lynched.

Maybe this is a bit self-centred, but I was somewhat relieved when he was revealed as a Townie, to tell the truth. I was afraid that had he flipped Mafia, I would have been accused of avoiding the topic and waiting only till his lynch was inevitable to bus "my scumbuddy" to appear more innocent. But still, sucks that yet another townie died.



AND FINALLY...

The Whole Town
 
You took Dr. Tenma's post out of context and attempted to frame him with that!



This is the one that puzzled me the most. For many, it was the defining reason for my scumminess. For me, I just couldn't get it. I literally went into my Diary and complained about this. His post makes no sense to me. Why am I the only one who sees this?

So last night, I reread the dialogue between him and Sakuragi. And reread it again. Then, after around 3 times, I finally understood Tenma's post. And I felt like a big idiot. So much so that I posted this in my Diary:
Spoiler: click to toggle


To recap, Tenma said, "I will say this, people with power roles don't always want to draw all that attention to themselves for no reason. Mr Basketball seems to think less active players are more justified to lynch which seems like a pretty bad idea."

See, the whole time I thought he was responding to this quote of Sakuragi:
Sakuragi
 
There are only 14 of us here, ya know. Lynching someone to force a safer kill will result in 1 less person than we'd have without a lynch.


And I'm sitting here wondering, who cares if Sakuragi meant "safer mafia kill" or "safer lynch", it doesn't change the fact that Tenma's response just seems to be excusing low activity. Like all he's saying is "The idea of lynching less active players is bad." To which I took great offense.

But then I finally realized he was responding to this quote

Sakuragi
 
Also, there's a very incorrect assumption being made that Charizard ripoff would be the only safe kill. The day is still young yes but there are people who have posted less and could be considered safe.


NOW his explanation makes perfect sense with the context. He thought Sakuragi was saying "We don't need to lynch Guilmon, we could lynch any of the other low-posting players." to which he responded saying, "Uh...no! Guilmon is dead weight, these other guys aren't."
You may note that most of my responses were just me saying "I don't get that from your words, I don't see how what you said means that, etc." I was seriously waiting for others to show up and take my side on this, thinking I can't be the only one who thinks that his original statement sounds way off from his explanation. But Holy Britannian Empire, that makes perfect sense in context.
Yeah, okay, I see why people think that me pursuing this was scummy.

The sad thing is that this whole misunderstanding could have been avoided...with a single quote. But then again, it's my carelessness to assume a response is to an older post rather than a newer one. I don't know why I even assumed that, I think it's because the first post was meatier than the second, and I was thinking of the second as kind of an afterthought to the first.

Funny enough, I was not the only one who made such a mistake on Day 2, but alas, mine escalated way further than the other:
Dandy
 
Ah you did. Silly me. Since it had no quote I didn“t relate it.



BOTTOM LINE:
Since Day 1, since Post 1, I have been adamantly against lurking and inactivity.
I called out Yuki, Isaac, Kakashi, Weevil, and Astroboy on Day 1 for little to no contributions.
I happily lynched Guilmon and Sakuragi, and tried to lynch Astroboy (before his replacement was announced), all for the same reasons.
My attempts to make more people talk made me seem distracting.
My contempt for low activity is what infuriated me about Tenma's post (which I had misunderstood).
What has Kakashi done the whole game besides misunderstanding something Weevil wrote?
What has Weevil done besides suggest Cavendish replace Guilmon?

If Tenma, Mimi, Kira, and I all end up being Town, I'm going to be super annoyed. It means we literally just spent all our time biting each other's tails while the mafia sat back and watched. When there's only a few of us regularly posting, there's only going to be a few people to draw conclusions from, and only a few perspectives flying around. Seriously, pretty much all of Day 2 was people calling out Sakuragi's pacifism and him not responding, and people calling out me for various reasons and me trying to respond. When there's only one person being interviewed, he's going to look more suspicious by default.
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Dr. Tenma
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Monster
Well that really sucks to lose one of our two faith healers but to pick up where we left off yes Isaac that was really irresponsible to hammer in the middle of activity without warning when there's almost 2 hours left in the day and not only that it was a little while after you got piled onto for your "joke" vote on Astro boy so maybe you got nervous and decided to end the day? I don't buy that it was a joke by the way I mean nothing about it seems joking and I think you just trying to pass it off as humor after the criticism you go. If you hadn't apologized before I had a chance to post you'd already have a vote on you but I guess I'll hold off for now, that said you jut admitted you were aware that it might have been good to allow for more discussion but it sounds like you thought your promise about hammering at the same time as yesterday was important enough to do it anyway? i'm sorry but that was an awful decision and I can't help but find the whole thing suspicious.

I had something to comment about Lelouche too before the day abruptly ended but I just saw he made a huge post so better leave this here now and read that before addressing him
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Isaac Dian
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Baccano!
Dr. Tenma
Oct 26 2016, 10:33 PM
Well that really sucks to lose one of our two faith healers but to pick up where we left off yes Isaac that was really irresponsible to hammer in the middle of activity without warning when there's almost 2 hours left in the day and not only that it was a little while after you got piled onto for your "joke" vote on Astro boy so maybe you got nervous and decided to end the day? I don't buy that it was a joke by the way I mean nothing about it seems joking and I think you just trying to pass it off as humor after the criticism you go. If you hadn't apologized before I had a chance to post you'd already have a vote on you but I guess I'll hold off for now, that said you jut admitted you were aware that it might have been good to allow for more discussion but it sounds like you thought your promise about hammering at the same time as yesterday was important enough to do it anyway? i'm sorry but that was an awful decision and I can't help but find the whole thing suspicious.

I had something to comment about Lelouche too before the day abruptly ended but I just saw he made a huge post so better leave this here now and read that before addressing him
Like I said, it wasn't a great decision that I made but I figured that staying consistent was important. It won't happen again in the future.

Regarding Astro Boy, I assure you that it was a joke. I clearly didn't make the joke obvious enough and it evidently didn't go over well, which is why I retracted the vote before he even responded. I even wrote in my diary that I would accuse Astro Boy just for kicks as soon as he posted- I was just hoping that it wouldn't happen until today so it wouldn't really disrupt things. Sorry for trying to have fun.

Basically both things were a big dumb sequence on my part.
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Dr. Tenma
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Monster
Okay I read your post Lelouche and i'm not sure the majority of it really adds or clarifies much although i'm glad you finally understood my post or at least claim to but i think I believe you about that right now, and yeah maybe I should have added a quote but at the time i really didn't think it would be confusing so I didn't bother, speaking of quotes I'm not going to quote you in multiple parts because i find that to be a huge pain but here are a couple points concerning what you said, I want to keep it rather brief because honestly while I still consider you a suspect i don't see the value in going on and on and on about this and i'm not sure your giant post was the best way to open the day to begin with.

-no matter what your feeling are the fact is that day 0 was not mandatory and I don't think that justifies your vote TWO hours into the day now that I look at it, not 5 hours. For the record I would have called out Pappug too if he hadn't died but on day 1 itself it was the stubbornness that caught my eye, you speak about being taken aback and well I was rather stunned at acknowledging a mod post about replacement but not backing down even if later you turned out to be right but only by chance

-I don't think anyone is questioning your vote on Guilmon it's more your hastiness and eagerness around it and the way you justified it, it kind of seems like you're mixing the two

This is from yesterday before I had a chance to reply but I think it's still relevant
Lelouch vi Britannia,Oct 25 2016
11:49 AM
To Tenma I'd like to add that Im not the only one who brought this up.

Edward Weevil
 
And i kinda dont understand why mafia goes for a inactive player kill in night 1 when they can kill an active player in order to lower the activity and stay safe its not like we have a bomb

Now I really can't tell if this is related to your misunderstanding of my post on day 1 but despite my best efforts you still don't seem understand the difference between someone completely AWOL and someone mostly inactive, Weevil was looking at the Pappug kill in retrospect not talking about Guilmon and we've been through this before, I feel like you take me in circles and right now that's what gives me a bad feeling the most. You're also using Weevil to show agreement but he's the very player I've been accusing you of being on a possible team with due to having the same agenda but hey congrats you managed to find one of his only quotes that I don't have an issue with and doesn't focus on Guilmon.

I realize I have yet to analyze the two recent deaths but i'll do so I just have to look back at the last days a bit.
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Astro Boy
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Astro Boy
10/10 first post I honestly thought Mimi died you got me mods.

And Isaac already said he was joking so I am not going to push the issue just for the record incase any doubt:

  • I subbed in
  • I posted a short post because I doubt my boss would accept "Sorry I am late I was playing mafia with my online friends from a website about rubber pirate comics"
  • by the time I got home from work the vote had been hammered so I could not post anything else.
  • I will generally be online sometime between the hours of 4pm/16:00 and 9pm/21:00 Eastern Time each real life day at least.


I am about to cook dinner and stuff but will be back to give a more detailed post of my thoughts on everything that happened so far.
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Mimi
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Digimon
Ok, so that is a really long post Lelouch. Might take a long while to process that one.

Gonna go read back on the previous day with the knowledge Dandy was targetted.
Even with his apology, Isaac's little astro boy lynch stunt makes me extremely uncomfortable, and with that in mind I'm also not happy that he's already excusing himself out of later day activity. Scum or not, that just really sucks given two mislynches have happened that could have been avoided if the individuals involved had actually been around.

Kakashi, Yuuki, Weevil... please please please give us more activity. Currently it kind of rather bothers me, for example, that the jump on Sakuragi began because of him asking for activity while contributing nothing... and then we have Yuuki state constantly how he doesn't know, doesn't know, oh you told me stuff so now I know. Kakashi and Weevil are also getting too comfortable with saying one observation and then just disappearing. Kira also wasn't around as much as I was hoping.

Town, we cannot win like this. It just wont happen. Especially because unless the mods went with a custom set-up, having a Faith healer could mean we lack a cop altogether.
So unless we are all active and assisting investigation we are completely boned. Heck, I think as a whole from the beginning we should all have just assumed we have no cop.

Astro Boy, I look forward to your post. A new perspective could help significantly.

Now as for the wagon from yesterday...
@Kira, Claire: Both of you started the Sakuragi wagon rather early for reasons involving lack of actually helping in any way, but then didn't seem to respond at all to Yuuki expressing more blatant uselessness. What do you have to say about that?

@Tenmon: what do you think about Dandy's random questions and his overall level of activity?

@Lelouch: how many people do you think will actually read that entire post?

@Mimi: why are you taking over Dandy's role of asking a bunch of questions randomly?
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Mimi
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Digimon
Mimi
Oct 27 2016, 12:00 AM
@Mimi: why are you taking over Dandy's role of asking a bunch of questions randomly?
Well, I dont actually know how it is he always formulates seemingly random questions, but still, maybe taking a stab at it could get some energy flowing to compensate for the fact we lost such an active and useful townie
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Dr. Tenma
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Monster
Ok so for Sakuragi I don't think there's much to say, day 2 he pretty much gave up on the game first in writing by resigning himself to having no leads and then entirely by being gone the entire rest of the day, he was the only player to formally vote no lynch on day 1 so even then he had no suspects.

Kira was the first to vote for Sakuragi followed by Claire in his first post of the day, kind of interesting also because Claire seemed to completely ignore the entire debate going on about Lelouch but then again so did Yuuki and Kakashi and Isaac was non-committal most of the day until his joke vote on Astro. Next to vote was Astro Boy claiming he had no time to do anything else, later Mimi and Dr. Tenma voted very close together, and as noted my vote count was wrong at the time and it's because Mimi voted while i was writing my post. She said her vote was due to his scumminess and absence while I switched because the day was far along and I found both suspicious but thought the Sakuragi wagon was the one with chance of success. Later Lelouche finally votes with no reason given and Isaac prematurely hammers.

it's honestly the first two and last two votes that catch my attention most, First two jump on Sakuragi strongly right away and early in the day while of the last two one is there just for the sake of voting it seems and the other was an early hammer. Also of note the day ended with Weevil, Kakashi and Yuuki all not voting, Kakashi and Yuuki came up earlier in my analysis which is curious and Weevil is already suspect to me.

For Dandy he was very active and promoted conversation but was overall somewhat neutral, day 1 he had a joke vote on Lelouche but otherwise his only vote was to hammer Guilmon. He did say on day 2 that there was something that seemed to bother him about the Lelouche discussion but I'm pretty sure he later clarified so I'm not sure that would be anything meaningful, my guess is it was his active and conversation promoting style that made him a target but I wonder what others think.
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