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Day 3: A Space Man Dies; You must read the original post to find out who's dead this time!
Topic Started: Oct 26 2016, 10:00 PM (2,282 Views)
Lelouch vi Britannia
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Code Geass
Isaac Dian
Oct 27 2016, 01:24 AM
I was also asked for my thoughts on the two wagons we had going: you and Sakuragi. I said I had a bad feeling about you, and I specifically said I didn't have any evidence at the time. I was just sharing my personal opinions and hardly made a case for you at all. I doubt anyone was swayed by that post and I don't think you received any extra scrutiny as a result of it except for maybe from Dandy, who wound up dead the next night.
Except first you did try to use evidence to support this "suspicion".

Isaac
 
I will say that last night I considered voting Lelouch, on the grounds that on multiple occasions he's tried to guide the debate down a particular avenue of thought and occasionally deflected answers (just my interpretation)



A)guiding a debate down "a particular avenue of thought" (whatever that's supposed to mean)
B)occassionally deflecting answers.

But you left this little back door open, in case my wagon wouldn't go anywhere.


Quote:
 
but at the same time I don't entirely disagree with his line of inquiry. He's who I'm leaning towards.


Classic mafia move that - throw dirt on an already existing wagon, yet give yourself an out, so that if the wagon doesn't form you can point suspicion towards the "stubborn" Townies on the wagon. A "could be mafia could be town" stance basically is no stance. Just fluff.

But here's the best part: Your accusation had no merit. The "dirt" you contributed was complete fluff. So when I ask you for examples of these two things, specifically this post: "No no no no, you don't get to just write that and walk away. Just vaguely point fingers and not really say anything? Can you give some examples? I find "guiding a debate down a particular avenue of thought" particularly meaningless here. You know what "avenue of thought" I was leading the debate? MY avenue of thought. In other words, in a debate I stated my thoughts and argued my position. And this makes me scummy.

You then turn around and say Wait, I never said I totally disagreed with you. Even worse, now you're saying, Oh no I never said I had any evidence.


Isaac
 
And I immediately followed it by saying that I don't totally disagree with what you've said and the direction you've taken, which is why I haven't voted for you yet. Something about the way you've presented your ideas rubs me the wrong way a little but I can't put my finger on it.
I'm just presenting my own thoughts and interpretations, just as you have with yours. I don't have a case against you.



Did you forget what caused your initial suspicions of me?

Oh and there's this nice little bonus too.


Isaac
 
I doubt anyone was swayed by that post and I don't think you received any extra scrutiny as a result of it except for maybe from Dandy, who wound up dead the next night


Ahaha this is a clever accusation.

You're justifying not providing any evidence for your claims because "nobody was really swayed by it anyway." And in the same breath, you try to throw a little more dirt on me by noting that the player the mafia killed tonight, Dandy, was the only one who was influenced by it.

You see the problem here? If the post was based on no real evidence as you've admitted, then if Dandy was influenced by it he was either led on by a baseless post (a problem you yourself sought to defend) or was not influenced by it all (in which case why is it significant that HE died?)

Either way, your little jab here is meaningless, and just seems like another attempt to throw dirt at an existing wagon without any actual thought.

Which makes it the third of your 3 accusations against me to be complete fluff.

Vote Lynch: Isaac Dian







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Isaac Dian
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Baccano!
Ok, no. I was split on whether you were obnoxious mafia or a townie on a witch hunt in the middle of being framed, but if you're going to get ridiculously defensive and accuse me then I'll present a real case against you.

First off, to actually answer your whole post:
Lelouch
 
Except first you did try to use evidence to support this "suspicion".
Isaac
 
I will say that last night I considered voting Lelouch, on the grounds that on multiple occasions he's tried to guide the debate down a particular avenue of thought and occasionally deflected answers (just my interpretation)



A)guiding a debate down "a particular avenue of thought" (whatever that's supposed to mean)
B)occassionally deflecting answers.

But you left this little back door open, in case my wagon wouldn't go anywhere.


Quote:
 
but at the same time I don't entirely disagree with his line of inquiry. He's who I'm leaning towards.


Classic mafia move that - throw dirt on an already existing wagon, yet give yourself an out, so that if the wagon doesn't form you can point suspicion towards the "stubborn" Townies on the wagon. A "could be mafia could be town" stance basically is no stance. Just fluff.

But here's the best part: Your accusation had no merit. The "dirt" you contributed was complete fluff. So when I ask you for examples of these two things, specifically this post: "No no no no, you don't get to just write that and walk away. Just vaguely point fingers and not really say anything? Can you give some examples? I find "guiding a debate down a particular avenue of thought" particularly meaningless here. You know what "avenue of thought" I was leading the debate? MY avenue of thought. In other words, in a debate I stated my thoughts and argued my position. And this makes me scummy.

Or, maybe, and follow this closely here, I was actually uncertain about both you and Sakuragi. I refrained from engaging in much debate the first day because I saw very little to attack one another over. I was very aware that what I was saying was quite vague because I didn't have anything better to add. If you want to get specific now, I'm uncomfortable that you often post early and attempt to establish a specific direction each day. You also attempt to guide our impression of the mafia by repeatedly posting about their strategy instead of offering multiple perspectives of what they might be doing.

Quote:
 
You then turn around and say Wait, I never said I totally disagreed with you. Even worse, now you're saying, Oh no I never said I had any evidence.

Isaac
 
And I immediately followed it by saying that I don't totally disagree with what you've said and the direction you've taken, which is why I haven't voted for you yet. Something about the way you've presented your ideas rubs me the wrong way a little but I can't put my finger on it.
I'm just presenting my own thoughts and interpretations, just as you have with yours. I don't have a case against you.



Did you forget what caused your initial suspicions of me?

Oh look, Lelouch deliberately misinterpreting someone's post. There's no turn there. I was suspicious of your initial posts but I found some merit in the direction you were taking. Is there really a difference between "don't entirely disagree" and "don't totally disagree?" Because those seem an awful lot like synonyms to me.

As for why I said I didn't have evidence, it's because I didn't have enough data points. I had a feeling that I didn't like how you've played so far, but I knew there wasn't enough to really act on it.

Quote:
 
Oh and there's this nice little bonus too.

Isaac
 
I doubt anyone was swayed by that post and I don't think you received any extra scrutiny as a result of it except for maybe from Dandy, who wound up dead the next night


Ahaha this is a clever accusation.

You're justifying not providing any evidence for your claims because "nobody was really swayed by it anyway." And in the same breath, you try to throw a little more dirt on me by noting that the player the mafia killed tonight, Dandy, was the only one who was influenced by it.

You see the problem here? If the post was based on no real evidence as you've admitted, then if Dandy was influenced by it he was either led on by a baseless post (a problem you yourself sought to defend) or was not influenced by it all (in which case why is it significant that HE died?)

Either way, your little jab here is meaningless, and just seems like another attempt to throw dirt at an existing wagon without any actual thought.

Here's why I thought you might be being framed. Dandy was killed because he was a lot more organized and influential than me. He was a more active poster who acted intelligently for most of the game. I, on the other hand, have clearly made a blunder or two; it's a lot easier to make an argument against me, as you are now.

Quote:
 
Which makes it the third of your 3 accusations against me to be complete fluff.

Vote Lynch: Isaac Dian

There was the lightest of accusations at first, a slightly more broad explanation of my feelings on that matter, and this small jab recently which I made because you clearly have a problem with me. If you want to go and get this defensive about it, go ahead. Here's my case against you:

You're overly aggressive:
You attack people over the smallest things. You accuse the less active people of being quiet mafia or useless inactives. You accuse more active people of lapses in judgement because it doesn't fit your agenda. As has been well-documented, you very quickly pounced on Guilmon for being inactive, then covered your tracks later by saying you would have voted No Lynch despite being very aggressive against other less active people. You've thrown accusations at least half of the group in the hopes that something will stick and start a wagon.

You're overly defensive:
Anytime someone says something about you is suspicious, you do your best to start an extended argument with them over differing interpretations instead of just politely explaining your previous actions. You can't resist punching back at people. Plus, you're overly aware of your weaknesses and look to turn the conversation away from them. Look no further than your first post today, where you had written several paragraphs trying to overwhelm any accusations against you. Likewise, you turned a small jab against you into part of a series of accusations against you that you could dismiss and attack in return, even though all they required was a moderate response. And you never even acknowledged that you had misrepresented my words in the first place, so you could play the victim the whole time.

You're too eager to dominate the conversation:
There's nothing inherently wrong with posting a lot, but you do your best to draw in debate about things that are otherwise irrelevant to the main line of conversation. Today, for instance you made a big post early to attempt to guide the conversation away from yourself. And while people are busy discussing how some of the less active people have behaved and voted, you attack me over my posting habits. When I defend myself and attempt to once again explain why I said what I did earlier, you attempt to lynch me, once again trying to twist the thread to what you want. As I've previously noted, you often post about what the mafia should do, which serves doubly as both a way of guiding our thinking about the mafia and a diversion from you as one.

Now let's take a look at your voting:

Astro Boy
 
Guilmon (7): Lelouch vi Britannia, Pappug, Claire Stanfield, Edward Weevil, Kakashi Hatake, Yuuki Rito, Yoshikage Kira, Dandy (hammer)
No Lynch (2): Hanamichi Sakuragi, Isaac Dian
Not Voting day1 (4): Astro Boy, Dr. Tenma, Guilmon, Mimi

Hanamichi Sakuragi (7): Yoshikage Kira, Claire Stanfield, Astro Boy, Mimi, Dr. Tenma, Lelouch vi Britainna, Isaac Dian (hammer)
(Not Voting (5): Dandy, Edward Weevil, Hanamichi Sakuragi, Kakashi Hatake, Yuuki Rito)

People on both wagons(3): Claire Stanfield, Lelouch vi Britainna, Yoshikage Kira

The first day you immediately voted to lynch who you viewed as the most vulnerable person and argued throughout the day for his elimination.

The second day you waited until both Dandy and I had expressed willingness to lynch Sakuragi so that when you added the sixth lynch vote the decision was all but certain.

And now you offer the first lynch vote once more and accuse me because you don't like me and you see that some people are displeased with my actions yesterday.

So in summary, you're volatile and too argumentative to be productive. At worst, you're an overly aggressive Townie looking to pick a fight with just about everyone. But you're probably a Mafia. Either way you're too dangerous to keep around.

Vote Lynch: Lelouch vi Britannia
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Edward Weevil
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One Piece
We lost faith keeper i still dont knoe how this role works
issac and kakashi are my suspects i need more reading and reading needs time something i dont have for now
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Yuuki Rito
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To Love-ru
I'm online, and I'm reading up. I'll post again soon.
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Yuuki Rito
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To Love-ru
Well Dandy was my main suspect, and that's gone now.

Mimi
 
and then we have Yuuki state constantly how he doesn't know, doesn't know, oh you told me stuff so now I know.

I initially found no merit in looking at Guilmon's wagon. I later found some merit. I didn't wait for others to tell me differently, and I didn't follow anybody else's train of thought. I came to that conclusion on my own.
I don't understand how my posts have been useless. Day 2 I didn't mention the Sakuragi or Lelouch situations, admittedly, but I provided my views on my suspects, and I've been asking questions to better investigate my suspects.

@Tenma
I didn't vote yesterday because I didn't focus much on the two wagons at hand. I don't have any real reasons why. I guess I was just being kind of ignorant yesterday.

@Astro
I don't understand what about me can't be gathered from my posts so far. I've stated my opinions and views on many things already. My stances are pretty clear too.

I understand Lelouch's defensiveness today, though. He's been a huge topic of discussion for the past two days, while he completely believed he was in the right. Now that he sees that he was wrong, and acknowledges the misunderstanding, he's got every right to defend himself properly from the accusations thrown at him.
I agree with the 'overly aggressive' and 'eagerness to dominate', however.

Who were Dandy's lead suspects? From what I can tell he kind of went after everybody somewhat.
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Edward Weevil
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One Piece
Lelouch vi Britannia
Oct 27 2016, 01:06 AM
Of course, it is not as though I have any reads on Kakashi besides his interaction with Weevil on Day 1, or on Weevil besides "he's moving", or on Astroboy besides French bread (subject to change of course).
If you only caught that about me then you didnt read my d1 carefully when i read some other people posts they may have caught it
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Dr. Tenma
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Monster
Edward Weevil
Oct 27 2016, 06:50 AM
We lost faith keeper i still dont knoe how this role works
issac and kakashi are my suspects i need more reading and reading needs time something i dont have for now

A faith healer is a doctor that only has a 50% chance of success I don't know how you could possibly be unaware of this since not only is it in the link on the rules thread but it's also literally in Dandy's flip from today so at best you're a townie that's barely even playing the game but at worst and rather likely in my opinion you're mafia who never took the time to care about the details, either way if you want to be useful to the town you need to step up your game even if you're busy you should be able to do better.

Vote Lynch: Edward Weevil

Sorry everyone i'm totally aware that this isn't exactly breaking our current lynch pattern but i can't in good conscience let this slide, definitely also waiting for Lelouch to reply to Isaac though and see where that back and forth goes, but i feel like I've said enough regarding Lelouch right now anyway.
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Mimi
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Digimon
Mmm, yes, this looks like fun.

Vote lynch: Dr. Tenmon

Weevil is definitely low-hanging fruit in terms of activity and contribution and I'm surprised you poked so much at Lelouch for doing that with Guilmon and then go and do the same. On day 3.
Will you be as stubborn as Lelouch? I wonder...
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Mimi
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Digimon
in case it affects it due to formatting and name accuracy

Vole Lynch: Dr. Tenma
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Isaac Dian
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Baccano!
Four people with one vote each? This will certainly get interesting.

As much as I agree that people need to follow along and participate, I wouldn't be nearly confident enough to risk yet another mislynch just rebuking a Townie. I think that's a mistake right now.
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