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Modelling your play style -- No off list allowed
Huck Seed 3 (60%)
Gavin Smith 2 (40%)
Joe Sebok 0 (0%)
Xao "Jerry" Yang 0 (0%)
Chris Moneymaker 0 (0%)
Jamie Gold 0 (0%)
Total Votes: 5
If you could model your poker play after someone..; Who would it be?
Topic Started: Dec 21 2007, 03:06 PM (408 Views)
Piley
Master of Magic, Overlord of All Colorado
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Who would you be?

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"
The Liberals have been fighting poverty for nearly
a century now. Poverty has won. Give it up already!
"
-- Christopher E. Otwell, 2011 August 24
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When Hope is Lost, listen to this: http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/hope-is-emo-ipod/id160169398
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The_Immortal_DJINN
Lords of the 17th Chamber of Maggots
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None of the above work?
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Piley
Master of Magic, Overlord of All Colorado
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The_Immortal_DJINN
Dec 21 2007, 05:12 PM
None of the above work?

Intentionally --- "None of the Above" is "not a valid answer".

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"
The Liberals have been fighting poverty for nearly
a century now. Poverty has won. Give it up already!
"
-- Christopher E. Otwell, 2011 August 24
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-



When Hope is Lost, listen to this: http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/hope-is-emo-ipod/id160169398
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MANGLER
Administrator
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I would have went with What Nick said as none of the above but since I would have to choose someone It would be Huck Seed from this list.

Not on this list I Would choose Annette_15 for online and live I would say Phil Laak
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The_Immortal_DJINN
Lords of the 17th Chamber of Maggots
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So, what's the point of this exercise? Pick one of these players that you don't want to model your game after and...model your game after it? Point? What the hell can be learned from that? Is this one of those "which would you rather eat - rat feces, whale sperm, or live baby kittens?" questions? It's not to say that any of these players are particularly bad, but with the vast amount of more successful players out there to choose from, the clear answer is none of the above.

A better question would be, if there is a poker player that you strive to model your game after, who would it be AND WHY. This way the person being polled can CHOOSE which player who's game they'd like to emulate, and explain why, offering a keen insight into the mind of the person being queried.

Also, can we define "game" here? Are we talking cash game? Tournament? HORSE? 7CS8B? O8? PLO8? NLHE?

For me, if it were NLHE Tournament play, I would try to model my game after Allen Cunningham. When you have Phil Ivey, Daniel Negreanu, and Jon Juanda admitting that Allen is better than them, you know he's good. He's methodical and can make really scary reads. I think he was a few bad beats short of winning a few more bracelets than he already has, and I predict he'll gain more in the future. He's scary, scary good.

As a Cash Game player, I would try to model my game after Barry Greenstein. The man is not afraid to make a big move, if to just see where he is at. He pieces together hands extremely well, has fierce discipline, and has the know how to punish players when he feels they are on "cheap" draws. The man is also an emotional rock when he's both winning and losing.

As far as overall goes, I think I'd strive to have the attitude of Phil Laak and Humberto Brenes rolled up into one. Both possess the tools and talents of professional poker players, but most importantly they have the affable attitude that is necessary to survive the downswings. Hard to dislike either of these players ever, and players woyuld rather give action to players they like than to players they don't like (likely a big reason why those two guys are always in money).

I could go on and on....


DJINN
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Piley
Master of Magic, Overlord of All Colorado
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Quote:
 
So, what's the point of this exercise? Pick one of these players that you don't want to model your game after and...model your game after it? Point? What the hell can be learned from that? Is this one of those "which would you rather eat - rat feces, whale sperm, or live baby kittens?" questions? It's not to say that any of these players are particularly bad, but with the vast amount of more successful players out there to choose from, the clear answer is none of the above.


We *ALL* know that there are players that are infiniately better than all of them.

If I posted one of those people's names, .... Obviously, everyone would of selected one of those. That's too bloody obvious.

I intentionally didn't want too pick "good pros" and see what people thought about them, and thier play styles...

Hell, at that last poker game I showed up at your place.... I made a LOT of plays and calls that Huck Seed does regularly in a tournament, and it even got you verbally bitching at me for doing so. Why? Cause I was doing a little studing of his known style, have been working on adding another dimension to my game. Yes, it's been semi-useful thus far.



Quote:
 
A better question would be, if there is a poker player that you strive to model your game after, who would it be AND WHY. This way the person being polled can CHOOSE which player who's game they'd like to emulate, and explain why, offering a keen insight into the mind of the person being queried.


Then we would have a list of about 5-8 Greats in the game, without any good useful knowledge of what that means.


Then again, it would have gotten a better responce overall than this did, which I expected to start a debate from...


Quote:
 
if it were NLHE Tournament play, I would try to model my game after Allen Cunningham.


Obviously. I only wish that I was 1/100th as good/successful as him. Obviously, I can't be, and can live with that fact. He's always super high in my WSOP Fantasy Draft picking for a reason.



Quote:
 
As far as overall goes, I think I'd strive to have the attitude of Phil Laak and Humberto Brenes rolled up into one.


So... you want too be a Circus Clown?


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"
The Liberals have been fighting poverty for nearly
a century now. Poverty has won. Give it up already!
"
-- Christopher E. Otwell, 2011 August 24
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-



When Hope is Lost, listen to this: http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/hope-is-emo-ipod/id160169398
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The_Immortal_DJINN
Lords of the 17th Chamber of Maggots
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If I posted one of those people's names .... Obviously, everyone would of selected one of those. That's too bloody obvious. I intentionally didn't want too pick "good pros" and see what people thought about them, and thier play styles...


*****So then, I ask once more, what's the point? If no one wants to choose any of these players, well...they won't. Why not open it up to the hundreds of other players instead? Clearly, if they aren't "good pros"....why on earth would they want to model their own game after them?*****


Hell, at that last poker game I showed up at your place.... I made a LOT of plays and calls that Huck Seed does regularly in a tournament, and it even got you verbally bitching at me for doing so. Why? Cause I was doing a little studing of his known style, have been working on adding another dimension to my game. Yes, it's been semi-useful thus far.


*****I hope you don't mind, I had to cut and paste this to e-mail to several people who were at that game. This really brightened my day, as I am sure it will brighten theirs. I also wanted to apologize to you about that "bitching at you" during that tournament. Truth be told, when I move all in with a hand, regardless of what it is, and my opponent calls off almost half their chips with J-3 of spades out of position, I am overjoyed, and moreso, want them to continue to make decisions like that for as long as he and I are at the same table. For the love of everything that is good in this world, I want ALL my opponents to think this way.

Now you'll be tempted to dismiss this with a brainless "whatever", but if you'd like, I can go into some mathematical examples as to how poor your decision was in this spot using a multitude of hand examples. If not, you'll just have to trust me, it was a bad decision.

I also want evidence, I don't care where you get it, where Huck Seed would call any all-in raise out of position with hands like K-4, K-7, and J-3. And no, you cannot use examples where the players only had like 2-3 big bets left in front of them. Despite what you might think, your chipstack to blind ratio did NOT qualify any of these hands as playable. Whatever it is in your brain that makes you think that it is a good decision to do so, please let me know what it is, so that we can continue to nurture it and let it fester. I also want you to ignore Sklanky's fundmental theory that in order to call a raised hand, it must be a good enough hand to BEAT the hand that was raising in the first place.

When I'm out of position and someone raises, the first thing I will consider is this---is his hand better than my hand and by how much. Typically, I will come to the conclusion (especially if it's an all-in hand) that it's a decent hand or better. If I look down at J-3, there is one decision to make - fold. Why is this? Because, if I'm up against any pocket pair from 33 to TT, I am a 3-1 dog, and if it's JJ or better, my J-3 only has an 11% of winning. Hmmm....if my winning range is only 11% to 35%....why am I calling here? The only time I would even consider calling here was if my chip lead was so vast, that even if I lost, I wouldn't be damaged at all. At every point in our games, you had 10 big bets or less (usually less) and you were facing at least a 4-6 bb raise.

I personally think that the bar tournaments and TV highlights have warped your perception of how people play poker. I appreciate that you enjoy the game, and I promise from this point forward to not become upset at you for any move you decide you'd like to make. Just as long as you make an effort to appreciate a player's frustration of getting their money in as an 85% favorite to win the hand, just to be called and eliminated by an 11% dog, suited 7 gapper. :-)

DJINN

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Piley
Master of Magic, Overlord of All Colorado
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Quote:
 
Clearly, if they aren't "good pros"....why on earth would they want to model their own game after them?


Alright... I conceeded the wording of the question didn't makes sense for what I was attempted to get out of this posting... Fine... it fact, the question assumes a bad pretense.


Quote:
 
Quote:
 
Hell, at that last poker game I showed up at your place.... I made a LOT of plays and calls that Huck Seed does regularly in a tournament, and it even got you verbally bitching at me for doing so.


I hope you don't mind, I had to cut and paste this to e-mail to several people who were at that game.


Nah... Why should I care? Hell, I might of even considering recording it as part of one of my PodCasts.... I've definately mentioned your poker games on at least a few different ones thus far.

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I also wanted to apologize to you about that "bitching at you" during that tournament.


No Apology Nessecary. I had a lot of people bitching at me recently...

How about someone calling a raise and a re-raise pre-flop with 7-2 Off, only to flop Quads.... Yeah, I did that this past trip to Bombers... Was it a -EV move? Definately. I was speculating for a big hand vs good cost-profit comparisions.


Quote:
 
Truth be told, when I move all in with a hand, regardless of what it is, and my opponent calls off almost half their chips with J-3 of spades out of position, I am overjoyed, and moreso, want them to continue to make decisions like that for as long as he and I are at the same table. For the love of everything that is good in this world, I want ALL my opponents to think this way.


It wasn't 1/2 of my chips... It was closer to 1/3 of my Chips, maybe. More likely, it was for ~1/4th. Yes, it was a questionable call. Yes, I know that I was getting it in with the worst of it, before making that call.

The thing is... In tournaments, you want to be actively busting people out when you have that opportunity too do so, and if it's only 1/4 or less of my chip stack too do so, I'm usually okay with taking a 35% shot at doing so. That's something that I've been looking at doing more and more as of late. Taking that gamble, in order to bust someone out from a tournament, in order to improve my own tournament positioning.

Sometimes, you have too consider that moving up in the standings, involves reducing the number of players involved remaining.

Now... Would I make this same kind of move in a cash game? Not bloody likely. Afterall, it is a -EV poker play that I'm making by doing so. In tournaments, I feel that this has valid strategic value. In cash games, it's a losing proposition.

Quote:
 
If not, you'll just have to trust me, it was a bad decision.


I'm well aware of ALL the mathematics behind what I'm doing. In fact, I made more than a few different All-In Calls which I was a 3-2 dog or a 2-1 dog in, simply cause it wouldn't kill my chip stack doing so.

Quote:
 
I also want evidence, I don't care where you get it, where Huck Seed would call any all-in raise out of position with hands like K-4, K-7, and J-3.


Here's a good example:
http://www.pokerhand.org/?1680605


Quote:
 
I also want you to ignore Sklanky's fundmental theory that in order to call a raised hand, it must be a good enough hand to BEAT the hand that was raising in the first place.


While Sklanky's good at reading people and explaining how too do it... He's not a very effective tournament poker player, and definately never in the money when he's actively trying to win. He's flat out ... "Too Tight" to ever actually win.


Quote:
 
I personally think that the bar tournaments and TV highlights have warped your perception of how people play poker. I appreciate that you enjoy the game, and I promise from this point forward to not become upset at you for any move you decide you'd like to make.



Have I shown any level of dislike/disdain at your games? Have I intentionally demeaned anyone at the table that played against me in any pot?


I guess if your considering the bad beat that I suffered in my first trip to Denver for poker when I put ~$180 at rish as a 93% favorite, then sure... but other than that incident...? I highly doubt it. That's the only situation that I remember doing that too anyone in recent months...



-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"
The Liberals have been fighting poverty for nearly
a century now. Poverty has won. Give it up already!
"
-- Christopher E. Otwell, 2011 August 24
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-



When Hope is Lost, listen to this: http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/hope-is-emo-ipod/id160169398
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Febiv
Overlords of the Di Yu
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I agree with Djinn. The title says "If you COULD...". If I could, I WOULDN'T!

Anywho, I went to CC this past weekend with the family, so I sit down at the 5-5 tables and give it a whirl. I CANNOT get into slots, they are a sink, and I despise them.

After about 2 hours of my stack going up and down, up and down, I find myself up about 50% of what I put in. There are a few mainstays that didnt leave the table, and some new people. I feel I have projected my table image (if you can have one at these games) as semi-tight, not a chaser, and a solid player.

I have the button, there are 2 other callers to me, blinds after me. I look down and have Slick. I raise it up. The blinds fold, the person UTG calls and everyone else folds. Interested, I have never seen that many folds there in my life. The flop comes Rainbow K-9-6. The guy bets into me, I raise. He calls. I think he might have caught his trips, but if he did, why not raise there. I am perplexed. The turn comes, blank in the form of 3. 2 spades on the board now. He checks, I bet, he calls. River comes J. He bets, I raise, he raises, I think to myself , there is no FUCKING WAY THIS GUY CALLED ALL TEH WAY WITH JACKS OR J-9 or J-6!!!!

So I call, and tell him to flip over his trip jacks. And he obliges me, and flips over his FUCKING TRIP JACKS!

I keep my composure and say nice calls and nice catch. People around the table are awed! But I come to expect this kind of play at CC, and like Djinn, encourage it. I know I will take that guys money in the long run.

Later on, this guy is on the receiving end of razzing and tirades of his similar plays he has done throughout the night. I tell the people that they are his chips, and he has the right to play as he wants too.

It has been a long time for me to realize this. People will play their chips how they see fit, REGARDLESS of how many times we can prove to them it was the "wrong" move. They will refer to the "gut" feeling they had...I wish these friends of mine with these gut feelings would have one about the lotto numbers soon. :/

But Djinn, you are correct in both cases, it is frustrating as hell! but it is also what we, as aspiring "money making" poker players look for. And no matter how many times we can prove throughout the history of man, that not even CHINESE MATH can prove they made the right move, they will still continue to play that way, based on gut feelings, or something that worked at a bar, or something they saw on TV once. TV is misleading. They never show you the hundreds of hands that lead up to a certain move, but this is what many people have to go by, is the move alone, leaving the TV with the thought that this move works with no preparation or timing, and "most" of the time. But these same people get very upset when they are knocked out because of the move, on the verge of quitting poker, asking for advice every chacne they get, looking for justification of why they made the moves they did.

Good luck to you all, hopefully I will be able to make it up soon. Finances have actually drained me, doctor's suck I tell you!

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Cyrrix_chipset
Master of the 52 card deck
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I have noticed a lot of people here calling to the river with 2nd or even 3rd pair off the flop. Haven't really been hurt by it yet, but it amazes me that people can keep calling decent to big bets with nothing but 2nd pair on the board. Crazyness!
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Febiv
Overlords of the Di Yu
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Cyrrix_chipset
Dec 26 2007, 08:18 AM
I have noticed a lot of people here calling to the river with 2nd or even 3rd pair off the flop. Haven't really been hurt by it yet, but it amazes me that people can keep calling decent to big bets with nothing but 2nd pair on the board. Crazyness!

I notice that with ALL limit poker. :/

Just have to adjust and accept it, or quit.

I will be trying to head up to CC more often in the new year. Especially for the Saturday afternoon tourneys.
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Cyrrix_chipset
Master of the 52 card deck
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bullcheetah
Dec 26 2007, 09:33 AM
Cyrrix_chipset
Dec 26 2007, 08:18 AM
I have noticed a lot of people here calling to the river with 2nd or even 3rd pair off the flop.  Haven't really been hurt by it yet, but it amazes me that people can keep calling decent to big bets with nothing but 2nd pair on the board.  Crazyness!

I notice that with ALL limit poker. :/

Just have to adjust and accept it, or quit.

I will be trying to head up to CC more often in the new year. Especially for the Saturday afternoon tourneys.

Well the sad thing is we are playing no limit poker here and most everyone makes you pay a good amount to chase, so not sure how you make those calls. In limit poker I totally understand the call with mid to low pair for atleast the small bet.
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Febiv
Overlords of the Di Yu
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Cyrrix_chipset
Dec 26 2007, 11:52 AM
bullcheetah
Dec 26 2007, 09:33 AM
Cyrrix_chipset
Dec 26 2007, 08:18 AM
I have noticed a lot of people here calling to the river with 2nd or even 3rd pair off the flop.  Haven't really been hurt by it yet, but it amazes me that people can keep calling decent to big bets with nothing but 2nd pair on the board.  Crazyness!

I notice that with ALL limit poker. :/

Just have to adjust and accept it, or quit.

I will be trying to head up to CC more often in the new year. Especially for the Saturday afternoon tourneys.

Well the sad thing is we are playing no limit poker here and most everyone makes you pay a good amount to chase, so not sure how you make those calls. In limit poker I totally understand the call with mid to low pair for atleast the small bet.

Usually, when you are playing limit poker, you are playing well within your bankroll range, and chasing for the big payout is worth it. If you are paying a "good" amount, then maybe your are playing limit poker where the stakes are not equivilant to your bankroll. I mean, how many big bets are you starting with? I prefer 50, but more would be more comfy. I can get by on 20 if I play tight and solid as hell.

So, if you are being forced to pay a "good amount" to chase, I suspect that your starting stack is not what I would consider effective to even sit down with at those stakes.
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Cyrrix_chipset
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I start with 40BB, and most of the flop bets range between 4BB bets on up. Blinds are 25 and 50 Cents in our games and most everyone buys in for $20, but you can buy in for just about any amount. 3x the BB preflop raise scares no one away. I have found to actually get the fluff hands away (suited non connectors and two non face cards) you need to bet 6+BB ($3). Overall though it seems like easy money as long as I play aggressive and don't fall into their routine of calling "just to see a flop" which I caught myself falling into a few times.
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Febiv
Overlords of the Di Yu
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Cyrrix_chipset
Dec 26 2007, 02:17 PM
I start with 40BB, and most of the flop bets range between 4BB bets on up. Blinds are 25 and 50 Cents in our games and most everyone buys in for $20, but you can buy in for just about any amount. 3x the BB preflop raise scares no one away. I have found to actually get the fluff hands away (suited non connectors and two non face cards) you need to bet 6+BB ($3). Overall though it seems like easy money as long as I play aggressive and don't fall into their routine of calling "just to see a flop" which I caught myself falling into a few times.

I was talking of LIMIT poker, and you are talking no-limit poker. 2 totally different breeds of animals.

And yes, with 25-50 cent blinds on no limit, the standard raises scare nobody. what does 1.50-2.00 do to someone that can reach in and pull out one bill, and rebuy for 40BB? and not have to worry about losing food or rent payments over it.

But on the other hand, once the flop hits, you can make it expensive for the person to chase, whereas in limit you cannot. :/

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