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| best poker books to read? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 20 2008, 12:52 AM (264 Views) | |
| christian | Apr 20 2008, 12:52 AM Post #1 |
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Lords of the 2nd Chamber of Grinding
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i'm interested in taking my poker game to the next level and I think it would help if I read a few of the top books. So far I'm looking at Doyle Brunson's 1979 classic "Super System" Barry Greenstein's "Ace on the River" Dan Harrington's 3 book series "Harrington on Hold 'Em" Erick Lindgren's "World Poker Tour: Making the Final Table" Phil Gordon's "Little Green Book" does anyone with experience have any suggestions on these books or any other books i should look into? |
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| Febiv | Apr 21 2008, 05:40 AM Post #2 |
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Overlords of the Di Yu
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These are just my opinions, but from my experience from reading all of these and the Colorado poker scene. Doyle Brunson's 1979 classic "Super System"- a bit out dated. Is a very good book on how to be aggressive, a decent starter, but do not rely on it as a fall back. Barry Greenstein's "Ace on the River"- pretty good. This author is a BIG cash game player, even though a good tourney pro, I would look to him for cash game advice. Dan Harrington's 3 book series "Harrington on Hold 'Em"- IMHO, the BEST tourney style books out there. Others may disagree, but these books made a lot of sense to me. Erick Lindgren's "World Poker Tour: Making the Final Table"- Never read it. Never will. Phil Gordon's "Little Green Book"- IMO, I don't like this guy's poker sense. I think it may be the fact that he is a self made Billion-aire, and plays poker as a second coming. Not sure how to explain it, but I can't see myself following a person's advice on how to play poker, if they didn't make their money play poker, ya know what I mean. |
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| christian | Apr 21 2008, 10:09 AM Post #3 |
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Lords of the 2nd Chamber of Grinding
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thanks for the advice frank. would you recommend picking up all 3 of the harrington series books? also, are there any other books i didn't mention that you would recommend? |
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| Febiv | Apr 21 2008, 10:21 AM Post #4 |
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Overlords of the Di Yu
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I liked the newer Super Series Doyle Brunson books. It really isn't all him, there are writings from many different players there. And no matter what anyone tells you, the only REAL way to get "better" at poker is to play it. Not fuck around and call fuck it bets when the stakes are low, but to actually take every table you sit at seriously, practicing what you have learned from books and previous experience. I found that I was guilty of this. Playing for nothing (or next to nothing) caused me to pick up bad habits, and before I knew it, I was incorporating these habits into my "real" games. So, I try to make EVERY game a "real" game no matter what the stakes. Use the books as knowledge of the game, and as guides, but in the practical sense, only way to get better is getting your hands dirty on the tables. Others may disagree, but reading a book does not make you "better" at the game, just a bit more knowledgable about it. Need an example? Look at coaches of sports teams. Some of them really can not play a lick, but they know so much about the game, their knowledge is valuable. But they can't dunk on people, or hit the 3 at that end of the game, but they can show you how to. Get my drift? |
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| christian | Apr 21 2008, 10:25 AM Post #5 |
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Lords of the 2nd Chamber of Grinding
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yeah i understand what you're saying. i've actually never read a poker book before, so for me it's just more of elevating my game from the help I can get from 'em. i'm interested in getting a weekly home game together from people on these boards + people they know. possibly a $20 buy in tourney style. what do you think of this? |
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| Febiv | Apr 21 2008, 10:45 AM Post #6 |
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Overlords of the Di Yu
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I have tried this many times. I ran a "league" at one time. Had people come and go. There is no consistency in the games. I have posted many games and got 2 maybe 3 people saying they would come. Then I bring it up the next week at the shop and there are all kinds of people that say they would come, so I set up another, and the same 2-3 people say they will come. Getting something with any regularity is hard to come by around these boards. I would throw one if I knew 8 people would, and I mean WOULD come. Not say they would come and have "last minute" changes. But I just don't feel it is worth the grief and time to discuss it with the wife only to have it fall through again. In fact, a league is what I want to do again. Pot got to be enormous for the final table. But alas, Finding 8+ people to commit money and time over a stretch of a few months is hard to do. But that was the funnest time I ever had with poker. |
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| Strandly | Apr 21 2008, 10:53 AM Post #7 |
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Lords of the 12th Chamber of Scales
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This really isn't related but I am a little bored and happen to be at a keyboard sooo.. I was flipping through channels the other day and came across a heads up championship. Not sure if it was the most recent one or what, anyway.. this Phil Helmuth guy was in it. I had seen him briefly on TV before and he seemed like a little bit of a pompous ass. In this thing I came acoss he was acting like a major douche. He got paired aginst some young kid who until now only played on the net. From what I gathered, the kid almost always beat him on the web so Helmuth issued a challenge to play a "real life" game sometime so he could show the kid "real pro pay" blah blah. So, they sit down to play and the kid wins the first 2 hands. On the third hand Helmuth gets pocket aces and the kid pocket tens. Helmuth limps in and the kid thinks he's bluffing so he pushes all in. Helmuth about creamed his pants thinking he had the kid owned. The flop is all trash but the turn is a 10, and then the river is trash. Helmuth was so mad it was hilarious. He went on and on on how he played the hand perfectly, manipulated the kid, etc (at which pint the interviewer mentioned the luck factor of the game and Helmuth did kind of a fuck-off style mumble lol). I don't watch much poker at all, but this was easily the funniest thing I have ever seen on one of these shows. If was ever to play in a big poker event I'd be almost as happy to knock an arrogant douche like Helmuth out of the event as I would to in it. lol |
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| Febiv | Apr 21 2008, 11:36 AM Post #8 |
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Overlords of the Di Yu
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Actually, to get the hand correct. Phil limps, the kid raises, Phil ( a classic maneuver) quickly re-raises, and then the kid pushes all in. Phil gives the quick "call" and jumps up. A brilliant move by Phil, the kid was totally out played, and got lucky. To the kids credit, he was gracious until Phil started yapping his usual shit. Phil did out play the kid, but just got unlucky as the 10 hit. That's a lesson in poker we will always need to learn. All you can do is GET IN WITH THE BEST OF IT. The rest is up to the poker gods. If you continue to make the "right play", and by right play, I mean good value bets and calls, then you will make money in the end. This is the reason that Hellmuth's nickname is the poker brat. |
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| The_Immortal_DJINN | Apr 21 2008, 03:41 PM Post #9 |
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Lords of the 17th Chamber of Maggots
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Chistian - First of all, I'm forced to disagree with Frank on a fundamental level when it comes to reading from poker authors who haven't "made their money from poker". Phil Jackson didn't make his money playing basketball, he made it all from coaching players on how to play the game. Many great poker authors, like David Sklansky, Mason Malmuth, Ed Miller, Colin Moshman, Mike Craig, Anthony Holden, A. Alvarez, etc....these players are not millionaires, but they are incredible teachers of the game. Whereas Johnny Chan is a player and will probably never write a book, there are others who aren't as successful as he who would simply rather teach people about the game and how to play it better. I do agree that table time is invaluable to wrapping your head around the game. Experience is essential. But playing the game is not enough. A winning poker player is constantly looking for ways to improve their game (which is what you are attempting here, Christian, and I think that puts you head and shoulders above many players who don't bother). Really good poker players are never content. Reading poker books is critical to getting better. I own a library of poker books. I feel right now that I can sit at any table (but I live in Colorado, which gives me online as my only convenient outlet). After reading around 30-ish books on poker, it became clear to me that very few books have the kind of answers and substance we're looking for as students of the game. You have a big name poker player "write" a book, and it becomes clear after reading it whether they wrote the book keeping the interest of the reader in mind---or if they write the book to cash in on their name merely for a profit. When it comes to the latter, these books are deluted and ho hum when it comes to real knowledge of the game with only a couple of really useful nuggets. For example, by no means purchase the following books: Play Poker Like The Pros - Phil Helmuth (probably the worst poker book I've ever read) Online Ace - Scotty Fischman (he has almost nothing to contribute) These are just to name a couple, but these stand out as two of the worst I've read with little or no value to take away from them. Now there are several books out there, however, that I consider invaluable that have not only helped me play the game well, but also serve as a catalyst on how one thinks about the game. There a ton of books out there that will help you, but it greatly depends on what you are trying to learn/improve upon. See below: If you are wanting to improve your multi-table No Limit tournament skills---- Harrington on Hold Em' - Vol. 1, 2, 3. His round 1 to final table strategy is exceptional and will help you understand concepts such as stack to pot ratios and when it's prime to make moves. If I were to play in a big tournament where there were 40+ players, I would review these books. Excellent guide to MTT's. If you are wanting to gain more knowledge on how to play No Limit Hold Em' in general---- Phil Gordon's Little Green Book. In differens to Frank, after reading this book I understand just how much poker sense this man truly has. The fact that he's a self made multi-millionaire made me want to read this book even more---because clearly he didn't write this book for the paycheck. I've read this book multiple times. The advice and strategy in this book are superb. I cannot recommend this book enough. If you are wanting to gain more knowledge on how to play Limit Hold Em'---- Small Stakes Hold Em. Winning Big with Expert Play by Miller, Sklansky, Malmuth - There are great books on how to play limit hold em', but those teach you advanced concepts that only really work at the medium limits ($10-$20 and higher). Most of us don't have the 30k+ bankroll to support rounding in a $15-$30 game, so we naturally play smaller stakes. I was HORRIBLE at small limit until I read this book. I am now a winning player having the mental weapons that this book has given me. In fact, I'm currently re-reading it as I'm going to Vegas in another month and plan on sitting in the $2/$4 all the way up to $6/$12 tables. This book is really helpful for me when getting ready to sit these games. If you are wanting to gain more knowledge on how to play Online SnG's---- Sit and Go Strategy by Colin Moshman. This book will give you the tools on how to win these little buggers. His strategy makes the most sense to me and has kept me winning these silly things with consistency. I see this guy to this day raking it in playing SnG's on Stars and FT. If you are wanting to gain more knowledge on how to play in No Limit Cash Game---- No Limit Hold Em Theory and Practice by Ed Miller and Harrignton on Cash Games. No Limit Hold Em is easily the most difficult game when it comes to cash games. It's a lot more difficult than people think in terms of making correct and profitable decisions. These books take a while to absorb. But it's worth it and profitable for anyone who plans on playing NL cash games to pick these books up and learn the lessons that they have to offer. There are other books that are very good, but these will give a player many of the weapons they will need to play, act, and think like a winning poker player. Have Fun, DJINN |
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| BTape | Apr 21 2008, 03:47 PM Post #10 |
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Lords of the 5th Chamber of Oil Cauldrons
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Phil Helmuth was always funny to watch. He would constantly whine and whine, usually pissing off other people and as it seemed, making them play poorly. He still lost most of the time I saw him play. |
| http://www.last.fm/user/BTape/ | |
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| Piley | Apr 21 2008, 04:32 PM Post #11 |
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Master of Magic, Overlord of All Colorado
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Actually, get the 4th book from Harrington as well. It was released only a few weeks ago, IIRC. Arguably his best book yet. Get the sequel for Doyle's Super System book (Super System II). It's much better --- More focused on Hold`Em, Updated chapters, etc. I'd got PDF files for several of the chapters from the original book, someplace on my hard drive. Erik Lindgren -> I wouldn't touch that book with a 10 foot pole. Phil Gordon's instructional videos and books are invaluable, IMHO. Check out "Inside the mind of the Expert" if and when you can. |
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- " The Liberals have been fighting poverty for nearly a century now. Poverty has won. Give it up already! " -- Christopher E. Otwell, 2011 August 24 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- When Hope is Lost, listen to this: http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/hope-is-emo-ipod/id160169398 | |
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| Piley | Apr 21 2008, 04:38 PM Post #12 |
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Master of Magic, Overlord of All Colorado
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I should add also that Frank is dead-on correct... ...I allowed myself to get a bit to crazy with opening hands and certain situational calls, based on stack size. I reeled back in my game a little bit, and am now back to doing well in Poker tourneys again, where as before I was busting out earlier and earlier as a result. |
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- " The Liberals have been fighting poverty for nearly a century now. Poverty has won. Give it up already! " -- Christopher E. Otwell, 2011 August 24 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- When Hope is Lost, listen to this: http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/hope-is-emo-ipod/id160169398 | |
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| christian | Apr 21 2008, 09:20 PM Post #13 |
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Lords of the 2nd Chamber of Grinding
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thanks for all the advice guys. i already messsaged frank, but would anyone else be interested in getting a weekly home game together? possibly a league? and i mean people that will be DEDICATED to actually doing it. im with frank, i would want to do it with people that can be reliable. |
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| Piley | Apr 21 2008, 09:29 PM Post #14 |
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Master of Magic, Overlord of All Colorado
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As long as Jayden is living with me, Reliability is not my friend. Chris |
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- " The Liberals have been fighting poverty for nearly a century now. Poverty has won. Give it up already! " -- Christopher E. Otwell, 2011 August 24 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- When Hope is Lost, listen to this: http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/hope-is-emo-ipod/id160169398 | |
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| Brapamival | Apr 21 2008, 09:50 PM Post #15 |
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The Tauren are my Bitch!
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You and I already talked, Im definatly in, as are Matt and Luke (the guys from my work we played with 2 weeks ago). |
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