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| Heads-up...? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 7 2010, 10:03 AM (272 Views) | |
| Piley | Feb 7 2010, 10:03 AM Post #1 |
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Master of Magic, Overlord of All Colorado
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Last night, after spending the day with an old friend of mine, I decided to go to a bar on south Nevada for some Poker, Beer, and Food. Right after I get there, some black guy was yelling that he was being discriminated on, and that the bar tender was trying to get some of the bigger Poker Players to "escort" out this guy. He was the only black guy in the room, and the room wasn't lit very well. He was yelling that he's been here for 20 minutes and still hasn't been served or anything. All he wanted was some chili-fries and wings. Yadda Yadda. At this point he was making a scene, and claiming that the Bar Tender was ignoring his for being Black. He was the only Black guy in the room, but still... The Bar Wench, was claiming that she didn't see him sitting there at the end of the bar. Anyways... he eventually leaves after 4 others big guys surrounds him. He does reappear about 2 hours later and makes another scene, but whatever... He had a point, that he was being ignored, but at the same time ... He's wearing black in a badly lit up room. It's not impossible that he was invisiable to the Bar Tender, but simply getting her attention at some point would have prevented this whole situation... ...So, anyway, I sign up for the Poker game. Only to find out that it's not a typical game. It's a Heads-Up double-elimination tournament. In the end, we had 27 players in total. Starting stacks of 2,500 with 10 minute blinds. Prizes are $50 in cash, and $85 in bar-tabs split among the final three. Nearing the end of the event, I get dealt the following hand in the Big Blind with 100/200 blind levels and about 2,800 in chips: Ac-9s The other person calls the limp. I decide to raise my option, making it 600 total to go. Flop is: Ks-Qs-Js I bet out 800, and my female opponent shoves with everything. Do you call? I'm looking at a sick, sick draw here: Nut Straight draw, 2nd Nut Flush draw, Over Cards W/ACE, etc... Potentional Straight Flush or back-door Royal Flush draw. If I do and lose the hand, then I have 600 left in chips. If I hit the draw and win, then I advance to the final 4 in the heads-up tournament. If I don't call, then I have 1,600 left and maybe 1 hand left in the blind level. Next level is 200-400. |
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- " The Liberals have been fighting poverty for nearly a century now. Poverty has won. Give it up already! " -- Christopher E. Otwell, 2011 August 24 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- When Hope is Lost, listen to this: http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/hope-is-emo-ipod/id160169398 | |
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| Cyrrix_chipset | Feb 7 2010, 10:59 PM Post #2 |
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Master of the 52 card deck
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You insta fold. You have a draw to third nut flush as both 10 and ace have you beat. If she is pushing you assume you are behind already and cannot be sure either draw is good. |
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For call of duty black ops hardcore gameplay videos check me out at My YouTube channel Please do that whole like and subscribe thing too! | |
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| Piley | Feb 8 2010, 07:03 AM Post #3 |
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Master of Magic, Overlord of All Colorado
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Does that answer change if she has done similiar pushes earlier and shown you bluffs face-up? |
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- " The Liberals have been fighting poverty for nearly a century now. Poverty has won. Give it up already! " -- Christopher E. Otwell, 2011 August 24 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- When Hope is Lost, listen to this: http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/hope-is-emo-ipod/id160169398 | |
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| Piley | Feb 8 2010, 07:46 AM Post #4 |
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Master of Magic, Overlord of All Colorado
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To add more context to the player, since that actually matters in Heads-up, I think. This was my second match with this person. I beat her the first time, but in that match she had a 4:1 to 5:1 chip lead on me a couple of different time. Each time the chip lead was like that, she would shove on me pre-flop forcing me to play for my stack. Granted a few times when I called, I was able to double-up, but the risk was that I could run into anything with any two cards in that point. When the hands were more even, and a few times where I had either inside or open-ended straight draws, she would shove on me and show me air or an over pair afterwards when I folded. The one time previously that I that I did call all-in against her with those types of hands and she had the 5:1 chip lead, she had the low-end of the straight and I sucked out runner-runner to make a better straight which put me back into it. Eventually, I was able to win 2 more pots after that, and got to the point that the blinds forced her to in a 4X BB situation where she would have to play any two cards, and I busted her with a High card. Afterwards, I watched her a little, and she was definately the most aggressive person betting in the room, before our rematch in the semi-finals of the 1-loss bracket. Edited by Piley, Feb 8 2010, 07:49 AM.
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- " The Liberals have been fighting poverty for nearly a century now. Poverty has won. Give it up already! " -- Christopher E. Otwell, 2011 August 24 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- When Hope is Lost, listen to this: http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/hope-is-emo-ipod/id160169398 | |
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| Cyrrix_chipset | Feb 8 2010, 10:57 AM Post #5 |
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Master of the 52 card deck
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Nope no change. When she has a big stack like you mentioned she should put you. To that decison every hand. The fact she is doing it now without the big stack means to me she has something. |
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For call of duty black ops hardcore gameplay videos check me out at My YouTube channel Please do that whole like and subscribe thing too! | |
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| Piley | Feb 8 2010, 01:41 PM Post #6 |
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Master of Magic, Overlord of All Colorado
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Alright. Fair enough. |
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- " The Liberals have been fighting poverty for nearly a century now. Poverty has won. Give it up already! " -- Christopher E. Otwell, 2011 August 24 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- When Hope is Lost, listen to this: http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/hope-is-emo-ipod/id160169398 | |
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| Piley | Feb 8 2010, 03:35 PM Post #7 |
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Master of Magic, Overlord of All Colorado
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Now, let's approach this from the opposite viewpiont... You are the Female player in this situation, and are looking at a board of Ks-Qs-Js with a bet of 800 looking at you, with a total of 1,400 in front of you, the pot is now at a total of 2,000 in chips, and the very real possability that your 8x BB is about to be converted into a 4xBB with the blinds being doubled for the next hand. You were dealt Jc-2h. Do you Call, Shove, or Fold? Edited by Piley, Feb 8 2010, 10:38 PM.
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- " The Liberals have been fighting poverty for nearly a century now. Poverty has won. Give it up already! " -- Christopher E. Otwell, 2011 August 24 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- When Hope is Lost, listen to this: http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/hope-is-emo-ipod/id160169398 | |
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| Febiv | Feb 8 2010, 05:22 PM Post #8 |
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Overlords of the Di Yu
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I think posting bar poker hands is pretty silly and useless. Just my opinion though...
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| The_Immortal_DJINN | Feb 8 2010, 09:34 PM Post #9 |
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Lords of the 17th Chamber of Maggots
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Hell, playing in bar tournaments is pretty silly and useless, IMO. But, if it makes people happy, and it obviously makes Chris happy, then who am I? BUT...when speaking fundamentally about tournament play, stakes typically don't matter so much. There are indeed opportunities to learn and improve your game whether you're playing in a bar tournament or the World Series Main Event. These posts don't really bother me and it seems as if Otwell is legitimately looking for constructive input on his play. What bothers me is the lack of information that he gives me sometimes when he asks. :-) For example, I can't tell you how many times someone tries to tell me their bad beat story at work and they just can't wait to cut to the chase---that their KK got beat by an ace on the river. They leave out, perhaps intentionally perhaps untintentionally, incredible details involving the hand, and usually the devil is in the details. Let's look at Chris example----
*****It's here that I would need to know a little bit more about who you're playing against. What mood is he/she in? Drinking or no? Is there history between the two of you? But most importantly, how many chips does he/she have in comparison to yourself in this heads up match. I feel that mood and history would certainly play a part in Chris' and this person's decision making process. From a mathematical and fundamental viewpoint, there are certain rules that cannot be bent when playing successful poker. From an intuitive viewpoint however, those rules can indeed be bent and making a laydown with a beastly hand or calling an all-in with Ace high are indeed appropriate and profitable. Granted, this is strictly in regards to real life poker, and even moreso with heads up play. I take a far more fundamental stance towards my online play than I do my real life play as online play offers very little opportunity to better understand our opponents from an intuitive POV. And with real life play there is often times an overload of information one has access to. SO PLEASE---Do NOT go saying that I told you to call all-in's with A high or fold trips! Most of the time it is not the right thing to do! However there are very, very few occasions when making an ice cold read and doing something that the book doesn't advocate can be incredibly profitable and net you solid results.*****
*****Again, what is 'everything'? Does everything mean she taps you or does everything mean all the chips she has left and it only costs you like 200 to call? I'm assuming that she has you covered, but knowing her chipstack is a pretty important bit of info. Say she has you covered, but barely. Perhaps she has you covered by so much that putting you all-in is just a fraction of her stack? Details, they matter. Not knowing this info, but assuming her all-in taps you, unfortunately you should call. I say unfortunately because you are not calling because you think you have a sick draw against her. And you're not calling her because you think you have her beat. You are calling because after you committed the 800 on the flop, you have a total of 1400 of your chips in the pot, leaving you with 7 big bets and half of your chips are already in the pot. You, sir, are committed. May God help you. And BTW, your sick draw is not as sick as you think. You're only real hope is your spade draw or a ten, but a spade or an Ace could kill you and a ten might be chopping a pot. But, you didn't really leave yourself much room to make a better decision here. You should call and hope that she doesn't have the As.***** DJINN Edited by The_Immortal_DJINN, Feb 8 2010, 09:35 PM.
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| Piley | Feb 8 2010, 10:31 PM Post #10 |
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Master of Magic, Overlord of All Colorado
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Exactly. I can accept when I blow a read badly and walk into a flopped set like vs Top-Top, or I know that I should fold bottom pair vs a tri-suited board, etc. I can also figure out if it's right to shove with 2-pair on a non-connected board, or if I should bet out 4x-5x BBs... The thing that I'm looking for, is when or when not to consider some of the hard choices, especially in the Shove-Time or Call-All-In decisions. I'm also looking at ways to better understand some of the reads that I'm seeing, cause while I'm right a lof the time, I will sometimes walked into a horrible 10:1 situation based on my read. As soon as I can fix that, I think then I will be ready for Live Poker using real Cash again.
I guess I thought I had all the details that mattered. For instance, this being a Heads-up game, where we both started at 2,500 in chips. Going into this hand, I was at 2,800 and therefore, she was at 2,200. I guess I didn't spell that number out explicitly. So, my pre-flop move of making it 600 to go, left me with 2,200 left in total, and her call left her with 1,400 in total, with a pot size of 1,200. Now, this brings up another question... Did I bet too much pre-flop, as it would effectively commit me to the hand?
Hmmm.... Happy-go-Lucky? She was very chatty and in an 'everything makes me happy' type of mood.
No. Or at least it wasn't obvious. She had what appeared to be a large plastic cup of Soda.
Only as described within the 2 postings above. In fact, I never met her before that day.
In fact, I did this same sorta of thing against my first round opponent. He would stare me down incessantly, on every street of every flop. I generally watch the board as much as my opponet for reaction. So, I had an idea. What if I run a big bet bluff on this flop, by immediaetly going into stare down mode and not change until he decides what to do. I did it three times on this guy. All three times, he folded after about 30 seconds because my staring him back made him think that his hand wasn't any good and he thought that I had hit a big flop or something. One of the three was a re-raise too. In all three cases, I had nothing. In the end, doing that forced him into a 5xBB left situation, which I ruined his day with. Back to the situation at hand:
In this case, it was 1,400 in chips with a pot of 1,200 already on the board. I had her covered by 800 in chips, with my stack of 2,200.
Edited by Piley, Feb 9 2010, 09:18 AM.
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- " The Liberals have been fighting poverty for nearly a century now. Poverty has won. Give it up already! " -- Christopher E. Otwell, 2011 August 24 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- When Hope is Lost, listen to this: http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/hope-is-emo-ipod/id160169398 | |
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| Febiv | Feb 9 2010, 08:36 AM Post #11 |
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Overlords of the Di Yu
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While I agree that analyzing your play, regardless of the stakes can be helpful, I think analyzing other's play with "bar poker" stakes is inane. Your pre-flop raise should have pushed her off the hand, but it didn't, so you are caught in a bad position of not really knowing what she is playing. Having absolutely NO CLUE. Her bad play has put you in a bad postion. Your raise was correct, her call was bad...bad play and bad for you. You bet on the flop and she raises you all in, you really have nothing to go on to see where you are at. So, you have 1400 left with 100/200 blinds. Letting the hand go here will leave you with 1400 and her with 3600. While some, will consider you pot committed, I feel that I would have a better chance gambling when there isn't this much information on the board. You really have no idea where you stand in the hand. Did she come in with 2 face cards and hit 2 pair, did she come in with 2 semi connected spades and 1 of them being a 10? You really have no idea how many outs you have. I would have laid it down, and put a harder decision on her with hopefully better cards. Why? Because 1 double up and you are back in the chip lead. The stacks are starting so low, that a double up changes the tide. Your stack, after laying it down, would not be so low as to where you couldn't hurt her with a double up. She is making an informed decision, as she can actually put you on some hands. I would rather take the next couple of hands and shove against her before the flop and force her into making decisions where the information is limited for her. Just my opinion. |
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| Piley | Feb 9 2010, 09:44 AM Post #12 |
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Master of Magic, Overlord of All Colorado
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Thanks for the opinions. I'm going to work on recognizing these situations better, as I should fold more frequently that I am. Maybe I'm chasing flush draws a bit too frequently with 2 cards to come, or in sitations that I shouldn't be such as this one where I am always calling with the worst hand against someone that had apparently paired the board in some manner looking to hit the Flush for the chips. I guess, if I checked instead of betting the Flop here, then I wouldn't have been pot commited either. In the end, I decided that either I lose here, or I go on to the next round, and in either case ... I have the same amount of 'nothing to show for it' at this time. I would have had to beat the next person after her, before I could claim a portion of the prize money. In retrospect, of all of my pre-flop raises against her, I only had her fold like 2 or 3 times out of almost a dozen raised pre-flop hands. Obviously, she couldn't have had face-cards on every hand. So, I'm not sure if the idea of pushing pre-flop with any two cards would have worked or not in getting her off the hand regularly. She seemed willing to gamble with me when she had a Chip Lead at times. In the end, I did win that pot and busted her from the tournament, when I rivered the 10s for the Straight Flush, which caused a small commotion among the remaining players. She was actually in a happy and gratious mood too afterwards, even though I put a horrible river suck-out on her. However, the very next guy that I faced, on the 2nd hand we played, we both got it all in when I flopped Top 2-pair (Kings and Queens) vs his flopped bottom set of 7s, and this busted me out in 4th place as the 'Bubble Boy' giving me nothing in the way of the prize money or bar tabs. In this case, I probably overplayed my hand pretty badily, as I pushed all-in with the 3rd bet on the rainbow flop. Only if I'm beat, should I get called in that case. |
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- " The Liberals have been fighting poverty for nearly a century now. Poverty has won. Give it up already! " -- Christopher E. Otwell, 2011 August 24 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- When Hope is Lost, listen to this: http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/hope-is-emo-ipod/id160169398 | |
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| Febiv | Feb 9 2010, 10:31 AM Post #13 |
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Overlords of the Di Yu
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I disagree...this is probably a "cooler" Piley. You played it well enough, it is one of those hands you really can't do much about. Head-up with top 2 is pretty damn good, ESPECIALLY that it is rainbow. There are only 3 hands you don't want to see, Kings, Queens and 7s. It happens. Edited by Febiv, Feb 9 2010, 10:35 AM.
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