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| Topic Started: Feb 12 2014, 02:32 AM (18,083 Views) | |
| DarkFlashlight | May 13 2014, 12:37 AM Post #151 |
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it will take a toll
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This is moderately helpful. Basically, most important points: 1. Non-ranked games DO use a matchmaking ranking, but you can't see what yours is. You can in ranked. 2. Everyone has four different MMR's: solo unranked, party unranked, solo ranked, party ranked. This might explain why Ghost, who plays pubs solo, gets into way different games than when he's with us. It also means that you should be prepared to get relatively wiped your first few solo games. 3. One of the criteria for matchmaking is matching parties up with similar sized parties. This is why we find teams so much. We go in as a huge stack, so we get partnered against a huge stack. 4. They are filthy liars about matching language preferences. 5. It's hard to match parties up because they often break one of the criteria regarding keeping players within the same skill range. Maybe I'm exaggerating, but almost every pub I've played without Oli has seemed a lot less balanced, and I'm willing to bet that's because his rank is higher than ours. He brings us up, so it matches us with people at that level, even though most of us aren't there. With Oli in a four-stack on a hero I'm fairly comfortable with: http://dotabuff.com/matches/643658433 Without Oli in a two-stack on a hero I'd played once: http://dotabuff.com/matches/646659389 My point obviously being that we should never ever play with Oli again. |
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| Olinea | May 13 2014, 03:32 AM Post #152 |
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No finesse
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I watched the replay and your account is a little... different from how I would call it: ~Your opener is Blades of Attack + Gauntlet of Strength. The problem with this opener is that you have absolutely NO regeneration for the laning phase, particularly on a melee hero who's very prone to being harassed. You were laning against Axe/Jakiro, and if Axe wanted to force manfights with you, you would either back off and he'd control you, or he would win the war of attrition with tangos and salves. You are at a huge disadvantage with that opener. ~WK/Necro mid was pretty weird, yes, and you guys only really got away with sending Bloodcyka bottom because their Enchantress was jungling and required Lina to solo. Bloodseeker cannot easily play a 1v2 lane, especially not bottom where he has lower roaming potential. It cuts off his access to top lane as a potential gank/roam location. ~You fed first blood by chasing Axe super far, and Jakiro punished you hard on your retreat. Which means that regeneration was not the problem here, but playstyle. Still, even if he hadn't managed to kill you, you would've been forced to walk back to the fountain, and if you had the money for a TP scroll, pick that up to return. With a Salve or something you could easily recover and get experience in the lane as Axe was forced to go back to base. ~You spent a LOT of time standing still. I forget if your mouse was moving during this period or if it was IRL obligation but it set you behind even further in a position where you NEEDED to catch up after being first blood. Walking back to lane pretty much doomed you as they were free to manhandle you. When Clinkz left the lane it was super bad for you. That said, Clinkz made shit happen all over the map, particularly middle and bottom (never top, so I don't get this kill-sniping accusation) - which confuses me, because his core build was Arcanes into Mek which gives him absolutely no additional killing potential. Clinkz kept you guys in the game during the transition out of laning because he was picking players off and killing towers. Nobody else really had that kind of impact (I guess Bloodseeker and to some degree Necro). ~Courier-wise, I'm guessing you've never bought a courier before, because it took you about a minute to get that deployed after realizing the Flying Courier upgrade requires the base Animal Courier. Darkie pointed it out, but your team had no actual support hero. Everyone on your team required some level of farm to be effective so you had no wards, courier, smoke, dust (for Riki), or any of the helpful things supports buy, and everyone's farm was so split (you and WK suffered heavily, and even when Clinkz left lane you had something along the lines of 15 last hits in 15 minutes, which even WK was managing to beat). By 10 minutes in, going back to base is far less crippling, so the need for a courier decreases with time. It was right to pick one up but this is one of the many reasons we have supports, so they can buy stuff to benefit the whole team. ~Midgame was marginally better than laning but you were VERY behind and it showed. Your build was a Crystalis and Gauntlet at one point, which had a few major flaws - you could never approach people because you had no movement speed (from boots, treads, etc) or BKB to avoid Jakiro stuns, Enchantress slows, etc, you couldn't take much damage because of the level disadvantage and lack of Strength items, and your power was very centered on landing a crit with Crystalis, and you very rarely survived long enough to get hits on them. With time it'd have been a good pickup but it's an item that gets better as time passes, and critical strikes aren't as effective when your damage is low. As a result many fights would see you approaching, tanking damage as you ran up to someone, getting 1-2 hits in, and being forced to back off for fear of death. You could get assists from throwing your stun out but you could not contribute to sustained fights, so you accumulated a bunch of assists and kept your death count low from escaping fights that you were too weak to commit to - I would not call that carrying; knowing your limits, yes, but not carrying by any means. Necro stepped up here and probably managed to be MVP for the team as Clinkz's Mek rush caught up with him and his damage output was low as a result - not to mention once Enchantress left the jungle, she started killing everyone and heavily snowballing. ~One fight you guys won (I forget how) and managed to break the T2 tower by deathballing as 4-5 down mid, but got ambushed as they all revived and died again. Part of pushing the advantage of a won fight is evaluating how much time your team has to do stuff in the enemys' absence, because when they revive you'll be at a sizable disadvantage due to still recovering HP and mana from the prior fight, in addition to any big teamfight ultimate abilities you used to win the fight before. Know when the team needs to back off - usually when the enemy team is nearing having all 5 members alive again - because it's horrible to win a fight and immediately lose that advantage from staying too long. Clinkz's build was weird and the lanes were odd but I never really saw your team in a position to win at any point. A support here or there honestly could have done your team a LOT of good as far as keeping farm well-distributed and buying essentials for the team - but I don't think anyone in particular threw that game away. |
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| DarkFlashlight | May 13 2014, 05:12 AM Post #153 |
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it will take a toll
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I mean, not buying a courier/not having a support isn't his fault. It just should've been more well organized, which isn't always something you can control with pubbers. I didn't watch the game, but assuming everything you said is true, I'd say the real takeaways there for Ghost personally are: 1. Always pick up healing items in the start. You don't need clarities unless you're a really mana-heavy support, but I always grab one tango set and one salve no matter who I'm playing. 2. Always TP back to lane if you can. Early game when everyone is trying to outlevel their lane opponents, if you die, you're going to spend more time walking back to lane than you will actually being dead. You're missing a lot of experience and putting your lane partner in danger the longer they're alone. 3. Don't chase for first blood |
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| Olinea | May 13 2014, 05:50 AM Post #154 |
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No finesse
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Yeah, there's a reason people complain about the MOBA playerbase. Hell, even dedicated support mains can be excruciating in how uppity / holier-than-thou playing support seems to make them. Everyone likes to be the juggernaut of destruction, plowing through enemy teams, but support is still really fun to play, since they tend to have the more varied skillsets. You can't control what your teammates do, and that's why I often find myself waiting during selecting heroes, because I feel comfortable enough with the majority of the roster that I can fill any position. If I take Faceless Void right off the bat and my teammates grab carries too, I can complain and gripe as much as I want - team still doesn't have a support, and it'll really hurt. If my teammates take FV, PA, Sniper, and Luna, I'm not going to lastpick Spirit Breaker and go "me mid". Agreed on the TP scroll thing, I think that'll significantly help you in-game. You used one or two in the midgame but it's imperative to stay relevant level-wise unless you're playing a hard support who may not need all those levels as much as your carry. The best way to ensure you don't fall behind is a TP scroll back out to lane. |
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| DarkFlashlight | May 13 2014, 08:10 AM Post #155 |
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it will take a toll
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I watched it in super fast forward and am less critical now. First, that first blood wasn't nearly as overly daring as I thought it was. A lot of people would've done that same thing. Your mistake was overestimating yourself. Yeah, you could've killed him if you had hit him just once. But you aren't the one who got him to that point. You stunned him and Clinkz Searing Arrow'ed the fuck out of him, which is an awesome combo that you guys should've spammed in lane for easy kills. Clinkz could have and arguably should have gone for that kill, but Clinkz is squishy, so I'm pretty ambivalent. I don't know why you were so hard on Clinkz. He was probably the best person on your team, possibly other than Necro. Well, at least early game. Later on his stupid-ass build catches up to him, as well as the fact that Clinkz rarely does well in pubs. I'll agree that your WK was terrible, but eh. Big problem was your build. You went for really expensive stuff right away and skipped a bunch of necessary things. You didn't even have boots, so everyone on the other team could easily catch you if you tried to run. More importantly, you only ever built +6 strength. Sven is a strength hero. He should be bulky. He'll never be DK/WK bulky, but he should have enough survivability to be able to stay throughout fights. If you don't like the suggested items the store automatically offers you, click the book icon in the top left and there are user-written item and ability guides in case you're not sure what to build. It even highlights the stuff it wants you to buy in-game to make it easy to remember and whatnot. |
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| dwestfan13 | May 13 2014, 08:44 AM Post #156 |
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Feeder
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I didn't know this existed. That would've been super-handy to know. |
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| Outlaw454 | May 13 2014, 09:34 PM Post #157 |
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Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies
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I knew it was a thing way back when Dota 2 came out, but I had completely forgotten that it existed until Darkie brought it up. |
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| Olinea | May 14 2014, 12:37 AM Post #158 |
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No finesse
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We floated around the idea of moving away from All Pick into territory like Captain's Mode, because it has a different feel to it and could be fun. I don't think we've all played CM so here's the breakdown: You have 5v5, standard Dota. One player opts to be the "Captain" (which I wouldn't mind doing unless someone wanted to try it out) and makes all of the picking decisions for the team. The entire pool (minus some heroes which might be newly released/reworked, I think about 3-4 in this case) of heroes is at your disposal to deal with. Picking then works like this: Team 1 Ban Team 2 Ban Team 1 Ban Team 2 Ban Team 1 Pick Team 2 Pick Team 2 Pick Team 1 Pick Team 1 Ban Team 2 Ban Team 1 Ban Team 2 Ban Team 2 Pick Team 1 Pick Team 2 Pick Team 1 Pick Team 2 Ban Team 1 Ban Team 2 Pick Team 1 Pick What this means is that there's going to be a bit of counterpicking, and with the ability to ban out problem heroes, we can avoid having to deal with some nuisances, or reinforce a strategy. A really simple example of this would be if we planned to pick Broodmother (you can't in Captain's Mode, she got a web rework recently that needs further bugfixing I think), we would use her huge pushing capability to crush towers. We'd use our bans to get rid of problematic heroes to this strategy, like Earthshaker, Sven, KotL, or heroes that can quickly clear our her spiderlings. But if the enemy sees an ES and KotL ban, they might think "okay, they're banning heroes with very good waveclear, we should probably ban out heavy pushing heroes". If they banned Broodmother in response we could switch it up and pick Nature's Prophet to continue with a pushing strategy. If our team revolves around a very fragile/vulnerable carry (say Luna, Drow, Sniper), they might take Batrider, who can Blink in, lasso our carry, and drag them into his team to die. We might want to pick Shadow Demon in response, because he can use Disruption to stop Batrider from pulling our carry into his team. I won't pretend like I have amazing drafting abilities, or maybe even anything better than "not totally bad". We might just forgo using strategy at all and ban out problematic opponents that we don't play, like Pudge or Bloodseeker. And our opponents may do the same, or ban top picks in the meta that don't affect us because we don't play them either, like Batrider and Invoker. I don't know if we'll ever do this but this kinda transitions into something else: If we were to do Captain's Mode, we would need a sizable roster of comfort heroes. You cannot always grab Slark/Lion/Drow, either because they're banned, picked, or maybe don't fit with a theme we're forced into - it's imperative that we would have a number of heroes on the shelf that we can pull out if need be - not our best heroes, but ones we can still feel very confident in playing. People like Gil's Brewmaster, dwest's Ursa, or Darkie's Ember Spirit have been proven to be extremely solid picks - maybe not favorites (or they are, idk really) but ones where if I ask "hey, Ursa fits this lineup really well, you up for playing him?" it's a good fallback pick and not "uhhh I guess I can try". I'll list out my comfort picks in a kinda disorganized way (I did not think this through). These are heroes where, if we were to enter a tournament or something right now, I'd have at the top of my picking list: Melee Farm-reliant Carries Dragon Knight Chaos Knight Phantom Assassin Ranged Farm-reliant Carries Gyrocopter Luna Supports Disruptor Earthshaker Tidehunter Treant Protector Vengeful Spirit Crystal Maiden Ogre Magi Lich Lion Warlock Shadow Shaman Dazzle Other heroes (mids, offlane, not full-on carries Tinker (mid) Shadow Fiend (kinda) (mid) Puck (mid) Clockwerk (offlane) Dark Seer (offlane) Chen (jungle) This is all that comes to mind as far as comfort picks go. I'll play basically anyone on the roster if the situation somehow demanded but these are heroes I'd deem a comfort pick. I'm hoping to get a bit more insight on what heroes you all would be most comfortable playing in a situation like Captain's Mode - the list doesn't need to be super long, and you know what kind of hero you may enjoy but not feel totally comfortable on, but it's kind of a curiosity / prepping thing. |
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| tfghost92 | May 14 2014, 12:48 AM Post #159 |
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swag on this dick, bitches
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get Rubick, my boi Sven, and Earthshaker in there as well. |
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| dwestfan13 | May 14 2014, 12:58 AM Post #160 |
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Feeder
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Heroes I'm comfortable with: Drow Lion Lina Luna Ursa Viper Sniper Medusa (kinda) Earthshaker (kinda) Witch Doctor Lich Terrorblade Warlock Shadow Shaman Venomancer Phantom Assassin (maybe) Jakiro Enchantress (I think I'm decent at Jungling) Ogre Magi and I could prolly do Crystal Maiden if needed. I feel like I can be adequate with any Support Hero that has a stun or something like it. Edited by dwestfan13, May 14 2014, 06:51 AM.
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| Outlaw454 | May 14 2014, 01:10 AM Post #161 |
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Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies
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I haven't played a whole bunch in quite a while, but I'm most comfortable with Clockwerk Shadow Demon Razor Venomance (though I'd have to play him some more to really put him on this list) Viper Abaddon And that's about it. |
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| Snowman | May 14 2014, 01:24 AM Post #162 |
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Berserker
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Uhh Melee dudes who are not supports Alchemist Anti-Mage Axe Bounty Hunter Slardar Tusk Ranged dudes who are not supports Batrider Clinkz Luna Morphling Shadow Fiend Silencer Dudes who are supports Ancient Apparition Crystal Maiden Disruptor Jakiro Rubick Dudes who are having an identity crisis Pugna Making this list made me realize that I don't really play a huge variety. I don't remember the last time I played AA, but I know how he works 'n stuff. Same with Luna. But uh, I've played most of the others somewhat recently and would be comfortable with them. There's a bunch of others I'd play, but I just don't play often. I'm going to try to start picking heroes I haven't played though. |
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| Romanticide | May 14 2014, 01:37 AM Post #163 |
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Cult Leader
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Let's see who I've got at the moment. I still haven't played everyone, so this list isn't complete. This list also doubles as a "heroes I want to learn" list. Drow Ranger Huskar Brewmaster Death Prophet Bristleback Bloodseeker Lich Razor Ogre Magi Lion Alchemist Disruptor Omniknight Ursa Shadow Shaman Keeper of the Light Viper |
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| cscrocker | May 14 2014, 03:49 AM Post #164 |
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Ang tanging Pilipino sa forum na ito
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My best heroes would be Templar Assassin and Drow Ranger. Heroes that I'm comfortable with would be: Mirana Queen of Pain Death Prophet Dragon Knight Juggernaut Omniknight Windranger Witch Doctor Enchantress Crystal Maiden Bloodseeker Jakiro Storm Spirit |
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| DarkFlashlight | May 14 2014, 04:30 AM Post #165 |
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it will take a toll
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I can play almost any carry, but the ones I'd feel best using are: Clinkz Clockwerk Ember Spirit Lycan Phantom Assassin Puck Slark Storm Spirit Ursa As for supports: Nyx Assassin Rubick Shadow Shaman Venomancer Windranger |
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