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Question for Atheists
Topic Started: Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:54 pm (1,926 Views)
Phoenix
Level 7
How about a question for the believers?

If god is almighty, all powerful, all knowledgeable, all good, consider this. If he's all powerful, is he able to create something better than he is? If he can, then he's not all powerful. If he cannot, then he's not all powerful.

Ooo, philosophy ;)
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DeMaGoG
Level 23
You're comparing something supernatural to something natural. That's like comparing apples to oranges.
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Arbiter
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Level 15
fizzly
Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:29 pm
How about a question for the believers?

If god is almighty, all powerful, all knowledgeable, all good, consider this. If he's all powerful, is he able to create something better than he is? If he can, then he's not all powerful. If he cannot, then he's not all powerful.

Ooo, philosophy ;)
I would imagine that he could... but why would he? Just for a second... think if you were God, would you want something more powerful then you, that others can worship etc? The closest that came to it was Satan... if you believe that is.

Also, I just wanted to make a point about referring the year 0 to a religious date, when in fact it has no relevance to Christianity whatsoever. Jesus was not born in "year 0"
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DeMaGoG
Level 23
If I remember right it's an estimated date right? The year he was born I mean.
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Xtreme
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The Creator
DeMaGoG
Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:27 pm
But you have to have faith that it never existed :-p
No. I just really don't care. See the difference?
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Tonic
The Mambo King
FaZ-
Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:36 pm
I find most hardcore atheists to be almost as dumb as hardcore religious people. People are atheists now because it's the "intellectual" thing to do or because they hate the religion that their parents imposed on them and aren't aware of alternatives.

I could never be an atheist for the simple fact that you are taking something to be true which cannot under any circumstances be proven. That is essentially the definition of faith.
I would feel pretty bad for you if that's what you actually believe. The atheists I know and most of the prominent ones aren't atheists simply because they believe it's the "intellectual" thing to do, but because they use their intellectuality to conclude that religion isn't a viable explanation/interpretation of our surroundings.

You're also wrong about us taking something that can't be proven to be true, sorely mistaken in fact. You're deliberately distorting atheism. Atheists don't see find religion a satisfying explanation, so they search for alternatives that can be proven, or at least to a larger extent than religion. And even if we cannot ultimately prove that God does not exist, just like we cannot prove that a giant flying spaghetti monster or a flying teacup (ty Dawkins) doesn't exist, we can take comfort in the fact that most of the empirical evidence available points towards that conclusion, or at least very little evidence supports it. And also, just because God cannot be disproven doesn't make it true. Can't have your cake and eat it to.

Do you see the difference? Atheists aren't believing in something that can't be proven, they're refusing to be believe something until there is evidence to support it. How is that faith?
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Level 15
DeMaGoG
Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:06 pm
If I remember right it's an estimated date right? The year he was born I mean.
Umm, I think that there is actually reasonable proof to believe he was born within a couple years... I haven't looked at it specifically. I know that there's probably a record somewhere of when he was crucified.. maybe not... again I haven't really looked indepth, but I think its around the year 3... or something close to that. So I guess, yes, it would be an estimated date, after all that explanation, though, I think I'm going to look into that.
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XpLoiTeD
† Rawr †
Only read the first page. God is nothing more than a safety faith. People who need to believe there is something after life resort to this. There is no such thing as "spirit". You have a brain which reacts to the environment and what you learn, a body that does what it was created to do. When you die, you cease to exist. That is it. Evolution. If there was a God, there would be some sort of proof. It is all based off peoples opinions, nobody has ever "seen" him, "heard" him, or had any type of encounter with "Him". If they say they have, its bullshit. Evolution is a proven science, believing religion leads you to not question certain things that don't make sense. Evolution provides backup for its statements. If you want to argue this, that's your choice, but in the end, there will be no God, no "Heaven" or "Hell". Just the end.
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MaKsU
Level 11
Xtreme
Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:22 pm
DeMaGoG
Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:27 pm
But you have to have faith that it never existed :-p
No. I just really don't care. See the difference?
Thats not atheism, I dont think.
Edited by MaKsU, Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:47 pm.
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Tonic
The Mambo King
MaKsU
Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:46 pm
Xtreme
Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:22 pm
DeMaGoG
Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:27 pm
But you have to have faith that it never existed :-p
No. I just really don't care. See the difference?
Thats not atheism, I dont think.
It's a form of agnosticism I think...
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FaZ-
Level 39
Tonic
Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:06 pm
FaZ-
Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:36 pm
I find most hardcore atheists to be almost as dumb as hardcore religious people. People are atheists now because it's the "intellectual" thing to do or because they hate the religion that their parents imposed on them and aren't aware of alternatives.

I could never be an atheist for the simple fact that you are taking something to be true which cannot under any circumstances be proven. That is essentially the definition of faith.
I would feel pretty bad for you if that's what you actually believe. The atheists I know and most of the prominent ones aren't atheists simply because they believe it's the "intellectual" thing to do, but because they use their intellectuality to conclude that religion isn't a viable explanation/interpretation of our surroundings.

You're also wrong about us taking something that can't be proven to be true, sorely mistaken in fact. You're deliberately distorting atheism. Atheists don't see find religion a satisfying explanation, so they search for alternatives that can be proven, or at least to a larger extent than religion. And even if we cannot ultimately prove that God does not exist, just like we cannot prove that a giant flying spaghetti monster or a flying teacup (ty Dawkins) doesn't exist, we can take comfort in the fact that most of the empirical evidence available points towards that conclusion, or at least very little evidence supports it. And also, just because God cannot be disproven doesn't make it true. Can't have your cake and eat it to.

Do you see the difference? Atheists aren't believing in something that can't be proven, they're refusing to be believe something until there is evidence to support it. How is that faith?
You made my points for me, Tonic.


You say: "they use their intellectuality to conclude that religion isn't a viable explanation/interpretation of our surroundings."

You're making a false dichotomy and, as I said, "aren't aware of alternatives."


If you think about it, assuming that religious people are right, there is a possibility that their stance will be proven correct. There is no possible way that atheism can be proven a true viewpoint. Does that mean that it isn't, obviously not, but the point still stands.
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Relieve
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SoniC
How come God can heal any form of sickness or disease but he can't heal amputees? That... my friends is a question that should be asked to Christians. I don't want my life to be based on a "God". Why thank God for your food when it is obvious you worked for and bought the food yourself. Why say you made the winning goal of your soccer game is because of God and not your own self that scored that goal? But then again, you Christians believe God exists because of faith. Which is fully understandable. But even though I am an atheist, I feel like my life is still based on the existence of God.
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Tonic
The Mambo King
FaZ-
Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:16 pm
Tonic
Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:06 pm
FaZ-
Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:36 pm
I find most hardcore atheists to be almost as dumb as hardcore religious people. People are atheists now because it's the "intellectual" thing to do or because they hate the religion that their parents imposed on them and aren't aware of alternatives.

I could never be an atheist for the simple fact that you are taking something to be true which cannot under any circumstances be proven. That is essentially the definition of faith.
I would feel pretty bad for you if that's what you actually believe. The atheists I know and most of the prominent ones aren't atheists simply because they believe it's the "intellectual" thing to do, but because they use their intellectuality to conclude that religion isn't a viable explanation/interpretation of our surroundings.

You're also wrong about us taking something that can't be proven to be true, sorely mistaken in fact. You're deliberately distorting atheism. Atheists don't see find religion a satisfying explanation, so they search for alternatives that can be proven, or at least to a larger extent than religion. And even if we cannot ultimately prove that God does not exist, just like we cannot prove that a giant flying spaghetti monster or a flying teacup (ty Dawkins) doesn't exist, we can take comfort in the fact that most of the empirical evidence available points towards that conclusion, or at least very little evidence supports it. And also, just because God cannot be disproven doesn't make it true. Can't have your cake and eat it to.

Do you see the difference? Atheists aren't believing in something that can't be proven, they're refusing to be believe something until there is evidence to support it. How is that faith?
You made my points for me, Tonic.


You say: "they use their intellectuality to conclude that religion isn't a viable explanation/interpretation of our surroundings."

You're making a false dichotomy and, as I said, "aren't aware of alternatives."


If you think about it, assuming that religious people are right, there is a possibility that their stance will be proven correct. There is no possible way that atheism can be proven a true viewpoint. Does that mean that it isn't, obviously not, but the point still stands.
I don't think you understand what you're saying. nor did you even really answer my post.

I'd like to know to what false dichotomy you're referring to. In this case, there really are two choices. To be theistic, or to be atheistic. The word theist can mean whatever religion or belief you care to point towards for the answer to our origins. The word atheist means that you do not believe that the universe and our world was created by a supernatural being, whatever form it takes through religion. So enlighten me as to what "other alternatives" there are.

So instead of throwing out a word you learning in philosophy 101, actually defend both of your claims, or admit they are simply your misguided opinion and move on.

"People are atheists now because it's the "intellectual" thing to do or because they hate the religion that their parents imposed on them and aren't aware of alternatives."

and

"I could never be an atheist for the simple fact that you are taking something to be true which cannot under any circumstances be proven."

I responded by saying that we don't accept religion as an alternative, so we search for other explanations. There is no "false dichotomy". If there were even a shred of evidence pointing towards the existence of God, then we would readily accept it. What you're doing is treating the terms "theist" and atheist" as equivalent and opposite. That's a mistake. Theists believe theism is true, therefore any other explanation is irrelevant. Atheists believe theism isn't true, and search for another explanation. Like you said, religion can't be proven untrue, nor can it be proven true. That doesn't mean it's true, nor deserves credibility simply because of it's disprovable nature.

FaZ-
 
If you think about it, assuming that religious people are right, there is a possibility that their stance will be proven correct. There is no possible way that atheism can be proven a true viewpoint.


Do you realize that this statement makes no sense? Let me parody you and maybe you'll realize how ridiculous that sounds.

If you think about it, assuming that giant walking toe fungus believers are right, there is a possibility that their stance will be proven correct. There is no possible way that giant walking toe fungus non-belief can be proven a true viewpoint.

Following your flawed logic, then you provide equally valid reasons for believing in the spaghetti monster, the tooth fairy, the lochness monster, the boogeyman ad nauseam. By your logic, the most unrealistic, childish monster imaginable cannot be proven untrue, so therefore we should believe in them since there is a possibility they could be right. On the other hand, the sensible hand, we're all "monster atheists" since we don't believe something so silly can exist. There is no proof that something like that exists, so therefore we don't believe it is real. I'm sure that if we were all given evidence that one of these does exist, we would change our minds right away. This is essentially the atheistic viewpoint in terms of religion. Do we have to consider the alternatives? NO. What other alternatives are there in this case? The boogeyman either exists or it doesn't.
Edited by Tonic, Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:10 pm.
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SoniC
Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:59 pm
How come God can heal any form of sickness or disease but he can't heal amputees? That... my friends is a question that should be asked to Christians. I don't want my life to be based on a "God". Why thank God for your food when it is obvious you worked for and bought the food yourself. Why say you made the winning goal of your soccer game is because of God and not your own self that scored that goal? But then again, you Christians believe God exists because of faith. Which is fully understandable. But even though I am an atheist, I feel like my life is still based on the existence of God.
I read a 10 page essay on that topic, was thought provoking
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DeMaGoG
Level 23
SoniC
Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:59 pm
How come God can heal any form of sickness or disease but he can't heal amputees? That... my friends is a question that should be asked to Christians. I don't want my life to be based on a "God". Why thank God for your food when it is obvious you worked for and bought the food yourself. Why say you made the winning goal of your soccer game is because of God and not your own self that scored that goal? But then again, you Christians believe God exists because of faith. Which is fully understandable. But even though I am an atheist, I feel like my life is still based on the existence of God.
Who said he can't heal amputees? And we thank God because it is only through him that we have anything in the first place (through = because in this sentence haha). We don't believe God exists because of faith. We know God exists and this is shown through our faith. God causes faith, not the other way around.

Interesting last sentence though... which I don't really follow...
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Arbiter
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Level 15
dema, u believe in God?
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DeMaGoG
Level 23
Lol... yep. I'd have figured that was obvious by now :-p
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DeMuRe
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Level 25
DeMaGoG
Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:54 am
SoniC
Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:59 pm
How come God can heal any form of sickness or disease but he can't heal amputees? That... my friends is a question that should be asked to Christians. I don't want my life to be based on a "God". Why thank God for your food when it is obvious you worked for and bought the food yourself. Why say you made the winning goal of your soccer game is because of God and not your own self that scored that goal? But then again, you Christians believe God exists because of faith. Which is fully understandable. But even though I am an atheist, I feel like my life is still based on the existence of God.
Who said he can't heal amputees? And we thank God because it is only through him that we have anything in the first place (through = because in this sentence haha). We don't believe God exists because of faith. We know God exists and this is shown through our faith. God causes faith, not the other way around.

Interesting last sentence though... which I don't really follow...
Well said, DeMa.
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Tonic
The Mambo King
Ever heard of the Boeing 747 gambit by Dawkins? Look it up, it's pretty interesting.
Edited by Tonic, Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:12 am.
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DeMaGoG
Level 23
Again, you can't compare supernatural to natural... The natural world has laws and such as to how it works. We know nothing of how the supernatural world works. Saying something is highly improbable (such as the creation of God) is also just like saying it is highly probable because we don't know what is and is not probably in the supernatural world.
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