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Questions for Theists; If you believe in God...
Topic Started: Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:45 am (944 Views)
Oragami
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Level 24
FalseLights
Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:39 pm
Quote:
 
FalseLights, you don't have free will if an all knowing all powerful god exists.

That statement is unsubstantial.

Nothing in that paragraph explains why I don't have free will if an all knowing all powerful God exists. Its all postulations.
You dont have free will, did you have the choice to be born? No, It was anothers choice, your parents.
You Dont have the choice of when YOU die fully. You do to certain extent.

You have free will, within a boundry.
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UnConquerable
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So When are you gonna exercise this free will and rid us of your stupidity???
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Oragami
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UnConquerable
Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:09 am
So When are you gonna exercise this free will and rid us of your stupidity???
As soon as you quit breathing and wasting others air.
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UnConquerable
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Hey at least you admit you are stupid....
but then again I think that didn't need further proof.
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SOLAR
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Thanks for the well thought out reply falselights! I have to address some of your points though.

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Many people loses faith if a disaster struck them or there family. As far as I'm concerned, no, I can't be convinced.


If some outstanding new evidence comes up (even though plenty already has) that your religion is false, such as another god showing himself, or something along those lines, you still wouldn't change your mind? The fact you are unwilling to change your mind means that you're not concerned with finding the truth, you are more concerned with pleasing your community, or pampering fears and insecurities about death.

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"Power" was invented by man. Power used in this context is: "A person, group, or nation having great influence or control over others". He has no control over us, not even the way we think. That's the beauty of free will.


If you're going to claim that God does not have power over us, then you are strongly going against what the world says about your religion. God is supposed to be by definition "all powerful". If you are going to say he could, but doesn't have power over us, then you are saying that God's plagues and smitings never occurred. He sends you to hell for eternity against your will if you merely disagree with him. That is power and control. Fortunately, like the concept of power, which was created by men, the concept of god was also created by men, and we were, after all "made in his image" =)

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God forgive those who ask it. Those who do not know of god (or Jesus) will not know to ask, therefore are sent in a world without God.


Well, I'll never be sorry that I was wrong about his existence, since I'm not "defying" god, or "disobeying" god. God has never said a word to me, and to expect me to obey other human beings (the people who insist that god exists) is not reasonable. And you make it sound like a world without god has to be bad. It doesn't. If god just sent us all to a little community where he doesn't perform miracles and cast guilt upon mankind, that would be fine, however he doesn't do that, he sends you to the worst imaginable place full of fire and torture. This isn't a world without god, this is a world of god's wrath!

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Such "evidence" will never exist. Lets say you created biological Ants, in a few million years you will know these ants will flourish into greater beings. Would you really carve your name in the wall to have them know your the creator? In essence God will be breaking rule number 1: "Free Will", because he effected the rock on the wall. That's my take on free will anyhow, and I have different views of the creation of The Ten Commandments.


How come you insist on the idea that god's doing things on earth is a violation of free will? He can surely scratch a magical doodle on a rock, and my free will is still intact. The most obvious flaw in your thinking is all of the things God did on earth (plagues, sending jesus to earth, sending angels, etc) according to the bible, which have more of an impact on your will than anything else. Also, it's funny you should mention carving on a rock, because god did just that, when he inscribed the ten commandments onto a rock for Moses =)

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If you strongly believe in something, you will tell other people about your beliefs. Discovering God through prayer just translate to feeling. Praying is encouraging and it makes people feel centered as well as hope.


I agree completely, but that is not a response to my question. How come each religion uses the same reasoning for proving their religions to be true, yet they all contradict eachother? If you accept that reasoning, the only logical conclusion would be that they're all wrong or they're all right, since they all have the miracles, the faith, the prayer, the prophets, etc.

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He has numerous times. The thing about God is that he is very trustworthy, in that if some one says there telling the truth, then why think otherwise. Therefore He passes his will to man in so that we can listen and believe, there is no reason to be here physically (see question 4).


The god character may or may not be trustworthy (I'd argue not) but it's through people that we know of god, not through god himself. People are not trustworthy. To say there's no reason for him to be here physically is clearly wrong, since the majority of people in the world don't agree on what god might exist, or whether he exists at all.

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Eternity is not based on how we live as long as you repent. If a person does not repent then they will be in a place without God and will endure his sins.


Once again, being in a place without god is fine, but the torture and hellfire is not necessary. Also, whether a person repents or not during a short lifetime should have nothing to do with how they spend eternity. Perhaps an equal amount of years, or maybe less, but eternity? Not reasonable.

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There is nothing wrong with working on Sundays. Sundays is more of a celebration to God if anything. The church says to come to the house of God and pray, but in reality you can make any house The house of God given your faith. But being in a mass can be warming and encouraging. Bible doesn't teach about beating anyone and doing so is a sin.

Faith to me means Hope. That is the reason why people continue to believe what they believe in. A person can lose everything, but will never be without hope.


You havn't read your bible, and since you call yourself a christian, you should definitely read it, so you know what atrocities you are really defending.

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

You said to you faith is hope. Well, that's not what it means to other people. Faith means believing in something because you want to, or because you're told to, and basically means you don't require any sort of evidence or reasoning.
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-=^Icy^=-
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I have always believed in God since I was a little kid. Yes, I was raised in a Christian family to always believe in God but that is not the reason why I believe in God. I have been the hardcore rebel in my family, and have done horibble things. I have sinned a great deal. I have been through a lot of bad things in my life, and not to say you or others haven't, and I still believe in him, I believe he has answered my prayers, or didn't, for a good reason. I've heard of christians having "bad things happen to them." But thats not because God is doing that to you, or it could be, for HIS reason. I hardly go to church anymore, I kind of fell out of the Sunday morning ritual that I was so used to a long time ago. The only way I can tell you why I believe in God, is because I have this feeling inside of me that he is here. It's this feeling I've always had since I grew to learn about God. It's sad to say that people actually believe that a "crash theory" happened. Gases and rocks collide, the world formed, dinosaurs, and cavemen, and the earth appeared. Seriously? Where did the gases come from? It's obvious to me God is real, there is no other explanation. I've been searching for good proof that he is real to show other people. Of course faith is a huge part of it, because you can't see God.

The foundation of our relationship with the Lord is faith, not proof. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1).

The Lord asks us to have faith in Him, and to trust Him by faith alone. It is my belief that, by rapturing the church as He said He would, God is making one last attempt to prove His deity to those who resisted. God's purpose is ALWAYS redemption. While He IS removing the church to protect them from His wrath, He is also reaching out to a lost and dying world. But I can tell you now, if you ask God to help you, God will. In one way or another, works in mysterious ways. It says in the Bible, when the antichrist is on earth, people will have a certain amount of years to repent(some say 7). But are you willing to wait that long to see? I have told you all why I believe in God, because of my feeling I have, that God is there, all around.

I found this interesting article that anonymous wrote about the proof of God:

Is there really any way to prove the existence of God? It’s possible that either you believe or you don’t. Two separate paths branch out before each of us; the path of atheism on one hand and the path of God or gods on the other. One path denies accountability to any superior being other than that of nature’s collective consciousness. The other requires obedience and ultimate accountability to the government of a higher power. Atheism teaches that all things including our own existence are the result of chance. Theism (belief in god) ascribes design and order to supernatural intelligence. “Which do I choose?” is not really the most important question. Instead, the really big question is, “How do I decide,” or “How do I determine which one is the truth?” not “truth for me” but actual provable fact.
It’s rather ironic when you think about it, but there really is only one safe choice. If you choose the path of atheism and it turns out your wrong, you’re screwed! But if you choose the path of belief in God and it turns out you’re wrong, you’ve simply hedged your bet. You lose absolutely nothing by being wrong and you gain everything if you end up being right. As clearly rock solid as this logic may be, it still doesn’t answer the question, “What is the truth?”
It’s been said that the existence of a supreme being is self evident. But what does that really mean? I’m afraid I’m probably going to step on some toes here, but consider this. NASA sends a ship into outer space, to the moon, to Mars, wherever they want. Would you say that these spacecraft and their missions are the result of intelligent design and planning or merely the fortunate consequences of natural selection and chance? I realize that I’m being absurd here but I’m proving a point of self evident truth. How does it make any logical sense to attribute the existence and technology of spacecraft, computers, automobiles, and the like to intelligent design by human production, while at the same time pointing to the complex living mechanisms of this planet and asserting they are the result of natural accidental luck? Unlike modern technology, these creatures cannot be reproduced or duplicated in even the most technically scientific laboratory, I’m sorry, but logic and common sense does not tolerate two opposite conclusions to both be reckoned as truth. If intelligent design is responsible for all sophisticated and technical machinery, then there is a God. If all complex machinery organic or mechanical can be attributed to random chance then there is no need for a supreme being. The truth is self evident. The manufacturers label says, “Made by God.”



I also found this website, which agrees with the article. http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/thinkaboutit.php

Please read all this, it can save your life, thanks :)
Please read all this :) Thanks
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FalseLights
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I love to quote and debate about your ideals on religion but ill just hit on two inquiries.

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If some outstanding new evidence comes up (even though plenty already has) that your religion is false, such as another god showing himself, or something along those lines, you still wouldn't change your mind? The fact you are unwilling to change your mind means that you're not concerned with finding the truth, you are more concerned with pleasing your community, or pampering fears and insecurities about death.

I'm glad you brought that up.

There is a movie I recommend watching called The Man From Earth.
Its about a guy who says that hes an immortal and has walked the earth for 14,000 years. You don't know if he's telling the truth or not, the whole movie is basically an interrogation of this man.

*not a spoiler*
I don't want to ruin the movie, but in the movie the man was in the time of Jesus and he explains what he saw.

If something like that actually happened and that man was really 14,000 years old, and describing the truths in history, I would still be a Christian. Not because I'm ignorant (I would actually believe the man given he never ages) but because it makes me feel good. I have no reason to stop believing in my faith otherwise; It's like telling a 5 year old boy that Santa doesn't exist (which I did to my brother xD). Believe it or not, the presents I get under the tree from my parents still says, "From: Santa".

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If god just sent us all to a little community where he doesn't perform miracles and cast guilt upon mankind, that would be fine, however he doesn't do that, he sends you to the worst imaginable place full of fire and torture. This isn't a world without god, this is a world of god's wrath!

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Once again, being in a place without god is fine, but the torture and hellfire is not necessary. Also, whether a person repents or not during a short lifetime should have nothing to do with how they spend eternity. Perhaps an equal amount of years, or maybe less, but eternity? Not reasonable.


Again, He does not send them to hell. They are just without Him. And hell is a world without God.

The book: 23 Minutes In Hell, answers several questions including "Can 'good' people go to hell?"

A quote from the book.
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...While I was watching this scene, Jesus allowed me to feel just a small amount of the sorrow He feels for His creation that is going to hell. His love is so far beyond our capacity and is infinitely greater than our love. I couldn't stand feeling even a fraction of the anguish He feels. I said, "Please, stop!" I couldn't bear it.
I cannot elaborate enough on this point. It was the deepest insight into God's feelings that I had during this whole experience. There's no way to measure how much He truly loves all people. When a single soul is lost to the devil and damned to that horrible place forever, it saddens Him greatly.
I asked Him, "Why didn't I know You when I was there?"
He said, "I kept it from you." In order for me to experience the hopelessness of those souls in hell, the fact that I knew Jesus had to be hidden from my mind. If I knew Him there, as I have since 1970, I would have had hope that He would rescue me. To experience the feeling of being lost forever was by far the worst part of hell. On Earth, we always have some form of hope. Even amidst the most direful situations, we have hope that we'll escape, even if it's only through death. But there you know positively there is no hope whatsoever; you will never get out. Your soul cannot die, and you are lost and in torment forever.


^Icy^, a very interesting article indeed. And a cool site! I'm so sending the link to my bros xD
Edited by FalseLights, Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:59 am.
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Tonic
The Mambo King
What a silly site. When I went through the steps and I disagreed with one of their assumptions, it told me that I was wrong and that they couldn't prove God exists given my line of reasoning. Basically, the only way they can prove to you if God exists is by agreeing to all of their arbitrary assumptions and definitions.

Then it goes on to say "Only the Christian worldview can logically support rationality." Do you guys see what is wrong about that statement? It's not that hard.

Also, the site assumes that an atheistic viewpoint necessarily includes a belief in moral relativism, which is absurd. Believing in an underlying moral and ethical code in human beings doesn't mean a belief in God. There are rational explanations involving evolutionary biology which detail why some acts have been see as universally wrong by humans which don't require God as a causative agent.

This site is just propaganda for the ill-informed.
Edited by Tonic, Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:56 am.
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Great
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Hopeless ;/.

What a fail site. I disagree and am labeled illogical.

So much for proof that god exists or...maybe I'm illogical ;o.
Edited by Great, Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:31 pm.
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FaZ-
Level 39
That site is idiotic.

"I don't know if absolute truth exists
"Is that absolutely true or false."

It's absolutely true. It's a fucking opinion, not a truth. Logic fail.


EDIT: New route, new logical fail:

"Scientific Laws Exist" ---> False
"If you do not believe in scientific laws then you would have no way of predicting what matter does. This line of thinking is inconsistent with how you live your life. If you feel pain from stubbing your toe one night, would you try stubbing it again the next night to see if it becomes a wonderful experience, or would you expect matter to behave in a law-like fashion and try to avoid the object?"

Evidently someone was absent on the day they taught scientific method. Repeatability gives predictability, not truth.


EDIT2: And they completely dismiss cultural relativism because "YOU THINK CHILD MOLESTING IS FUN." Ad hominem not to mention opinionated, how in the fucking world do people accept this shit?

EDIT3:
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The Bible teaches us that there are 2 types of people in this world, those who profess the truth of God's existence and those who suppress the truth of God's existence. The options of 'seeking' God, or not believing in God are unavailable. The Bible never attempts to prove the existence of God as it declares that the existence of God is so obvious that we are without excuse for not believing in Him.

And someone missed the lesson on "Circular Logic" too.

EDIT4:
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Note that the proof does not say that professed unbelievers do not prove things. The argument is that you must borrow from the Christian worldview, and a God who makes universal, immaterial, unchanging laws possible in order to prove anything.

Which is definitely why before Christ everyone thought that raping and murder and molestation for fun and not caring for your children was okay. Hell, half of the fucking animal kingdom knows better than that.

EDIT5:
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Rather than use physical evidence to show that the Bible is most probably true, we again go back to intellectual evidence, and logical proof, to show that the Bible is necessarily true. We can know that the Bible is true because it claims to be true and proves it by the impossibility of the contrary!

LOL.

I wrote a book that little green men are going to mass murder all Christians. It was written by me but I was inspired by these little green men and in the book it says that the little green men exist. Therefore all of you Christians are going to be killed by little green men. QED amirite!?

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You see, for someone who approaches the Bible thinking that it cannot be true, the evidence will be as quickly discounted as evidence supporting the truth of a fairy tale.

Holy shit the author said something intelligent.
Edited by FaZ-, Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:28 pm.
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-=^Icy^=-
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I gave that site out because it was interesting. I didn't give it out to prove God was real. Like I said in earlier post, its all about faith, not proof. Those who don't believe should relate to God before believing God isn't real. Read the article though, it brings up a good point. How can you believe in natural coincidences and luck, and not believe there is a higher power out there that formed your life? At least if you believe in God, your hedging your bet, not saying that should be the reason to believe.
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FalseLights
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I wish every atheist thought like this guy! Hes very knowledgeable for a 20yro.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwMizuAec3g
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Tonic
The Mambo King
So you wish every atheist was a self-important douchebag?
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Oragami
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lol
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FalseLights
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Tonic
 
So you wish every atheist was a self-important douchebag?

He's reasonable, educated and understanding unlike most people.
Edited by Tonic, Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:04 am.
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Tonic
The Mambo King
FalseLights
Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:00 am
Tonic
 
So you wish every atheist was a self-important douchebag?

He's reasonable, educated and understanding unlike most people.
That's funny, because none of those adjectives can be used to describe the religious population in this country either.
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SOLAR
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Icy you mentioned that faith not proof is what should define your religious belief. You are not really arguing that, you are arguing that you should believe what you're told. You could have faith in any god you want, but you just "happen" to have "faith" in the god that you're brought up to know.
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Great
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Sat May 15, 2010 7:11 am
Icy you mentioned that faith not proof is what should define your religious belief. You are not really arguing that, you are arguing that you should believe what you're told. You could have faith in any god you want, but you just "happen" to have "faith" in the god that you're brought up to know.
Owch.

From the peanut gallery.
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