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Discussion Zone; Also contains important information
Topic Started: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:15 am (13,462 Views)
777averick
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On Vacation
UPDATED DEC 24, 2014:
The entire list will be revealed sometime tomorrow on Christmas day.

UPDATED OCT 28, 2014:
The rest of the entries will be done with a more visually appealing presentation. The remaining 15 should be completed in November (of this year).

UPDATED AUG 2, 2014:
Slowly but surely this will be completed someday.

UPDATED AUG 19, 2013:
This is a cumulative analysis after years of playing the game. Everything is subjective, so please don't take it personally if you don't agree with where I placed certain individuals. I have also included a rubric on how I grade individuals. Read the following below on how I will evaluate players:

Criteria: Possible maximum of 45 points

A. Legitimacy [1 ---> 10]
One of the most controversial things about our game is whether or not ex-hackers should be allowed to be put into a list such as this. I think so. For those who have been caught hacking in the past, I have graded them more harshly than those with a clean record. Remember that everything is subjective.

LEGITIMACY SCORE SYSTEM


B. Skills [1 ---> 10]
Having knowledge is one thing, but being able to apply it during game time is another. While having knowledge is important in succeeding, being able to execute it effectively is much more vital. There are a lot of knowledgeable people that aren't great players. Then there are others that aren't knowledgeable in every facet of the game, but are still able to succeed due to their natural ability to play the game. Lastly, there are a rare group of individuals that are both knowledgeable and skilled at the same time. These folks are the ones that will score the highest in this category.

SKILLS SCORE SYSTEM


C. Knowledge [1 ---> 10]
Certain people in this community have been able to dissect and understand the game better than others. These individuals understand the nuances of the game that other simple-minded folks would rather ignore than embrace. Many of the skeptics of snipers have claimed that this game requires no skill. For us more experienced players, this is not the case. Certain pioneers of various tactics such as glitching, shs, dlocks will be also ranked higher in this category.

KNOWLEDGE SCORE SYSTEM


D. Teamwork [1 ---> 10]
A partner that you have great chemistry with is usually more than enough to give your team the upper-hand against your opponents. There are certain individuals that will adapt to their partners style of play to compliment their games. For others, it's either their way or the highway. There are people that I've been able to play with over the years simply because their style works with mine or that they are team players. To be clear, this category has to do with an individuals ability to play with others. There are a lot of people that have shitty personalities, but can still play a team game.

TEAMWORK SCORE SYSTEM


E. Personality[1 ---> 5]
Why did I add a category where someone's likableness counts towards their value as a sniper player? For partners, I tend to play better with people that I get along with. People that are calm and collected put me at ease during game time. People that get nervous and angry easily can ruin the momentum/chemistry of the team. If I can't stand you, there is a higher chance of me playing under stress. I hate stress. I think you get the point here. If I were facing you, games are more fun to play in when both parties have nothing to lose. These are games where the outcome won't make or break relationships. This isn't to say that I don't like competition. I thrive it, but there are those that treat this game like it's larger than life. Yes, I enjoy this game a lot, but there is no reason to create unnecessary drama. At the end of the day, one of the reasons why the game is dying simply because of these cancerous personalities. One exception from what I just mentioned are those players that are sore losers. Even if you are easy to deal with outside of the game doesn't mean that you are just as pleasant to be around during games. These people will also be ranked low in this category.

PERSONALITY SCORE SYSTEM


Tie Breaking Process:
If there is a tie in overall rating, I will decide the higher ranked player based on this order: Legitimacy > Skills > Knowledge > Teamwork > Personality
If players are tied in every single category, I will just choose the player I think is better skill-wise.
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LockeD
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Cry to me Newbs
SpeciaLisT
Tue Dec 9, 2014 11:11 pm
Baseball
Tue Dec 9, 2014 11:10 pm
WooD is a definite person showing up
TaZ isnt showing up on this list according to mav i Think
That would be a fail if taz isnt

I dont think mav will include himself.. No1 did on their list
Edited by LockeD, Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:10 am.
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HaZy
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I feel the same way, Lock. Mav's list is actually weighted in a really unbalanced way towards the categories of Legitimacy and Personality (ie, see DeathChild who scored perfect 10s in all three 'objective' skill-categories but didn't even make the top 10 because of his Legitimacy and Personality; then, compare that with GreaT, who made the top 10 with only a single 9 and two 8s in the skill-categories but was more likeable and had a higher Legitimacy.) Over and over in the list, Mav has said these criteria are all based on his perceptions of the person; so how can he award himself anything less than a 10 for Legitimacy (a category that he has not given a 10 in to a single other sniper--or at least top 20 sniper, I don't remember the whole list--even people who he has said that he is "99% sure" they have never hacked) and a 4 or 5 for his own Personality score? These two numbers alone give him a distinct advantage over everyone else he has listed, where a couple points have been the difference between a top 20 finisher and a top 10 finisher.

All in all, I think it would be in poor taste for him to include himself on a list built on these criteria. Rather like how Google doesn't list itself in its own site-traffic rankings even though they are, objectively, the number 1 site in unique visitors per month.
Edited by HaZy, Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:06 pm.
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Aztec
Level 24
HaZy
Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:04 pm
Mav's list is actually weighted in a really unbalanced way towards the categories of Legitimacy and Personality (ie, see DeathChild who scored perfect 10s in all three 'objective' skill-categories but didn't even make the top 10 because of his Legitimacy and Personality; then, compare that with GreaT, who made the top 10 with only a single 9 and two 8s in the skill-categories but was more likeable and had a higher Legitimacy.) Over and over in the list, Mav has said these criteria are all based on his perceptions of the person
This is exactly why I don't understand why everyone is making such a big deal about his list. There's no way he could have an accurate perception of every single person, especially since the sniper community is notorious for having cliques over the years and every single person has gone through major changes throughout the ~15 years of snipers.
Edited by Aztec, Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:59 pm.
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skiD
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Level 9
Pretty sure Mav already said he DID include himself, so I think his top 2 is Him + his bro lol
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Skywalker
Level 18
Mav stated he doesn't include himself on this list.
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LockeD
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Cry to me Newbs
Well legitmacy is an very important criteria IMO. Personality not so much
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TeaLaGe
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Level 50
LockeD
Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am
Well legitmacy is an very important criteria IMO. Personality not so much
which your buddy taz has nearly none of

even tts should/would be ranked higher(lower) then him
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skiD
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Legitimacy IMO should be weighed heavily... Hackers is what fucked this whole thing up and was a constant battle against for everyone trying to grow the game ... Personnality idc so much
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BanG
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skiD
Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:36 pm
Legitimacy IMO should be weighed heavily... Hackers is what fucked this whole thing up and was a constant battle against for everyone trying to grow the game ... Personnality idc so much
This list only means something if you take mav's opinion to be the self defying factor of calculating the greatest snipers of all time. But again it is only mav's opinion and his catagories to choose along with it.
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skiD
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Level 9
BanG
Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:43 pm
skiD
Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:36 pm
Legitimacy IMO should be weighed heavily... Hackers is what fucked this whole thing up and was a constant battle against for everyone trying to grow the game ... Personnality idc so much
This list only means something if you take mav's opinion to be the self defying factor of calculating the greatest snipers of all time. But again it is only mav's opinion and his catagories to choose along with it.
I was just talking in general. In anybody's list I would prefer that Legitimacy is weighed heavier than a lot of things

Just my opinion as well
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HaZy
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The problem I have is with Mav's seeming-arbitrary nature in the awarding of points in the legitimacy rating, and that it can be used essentially to re-arrange the list however he wants it to go. I think it's absurd that DeathChild didn't make the top ten. I think it's doubly absurd that Great did.

The numbers presented speak for themselves; perfect 30 across the skill categories for one, 25 for the other. Put another way: there are six snipers ranked between 20 and 11 (of the ten possible) who have higher ratings across those three categories than Great does. Of those six, three of them are ranked 20 through 18. It is nothing short of bizarre to me that the first sniper who is ranked in the top ten of all time according to this list has a lower "skill" rating than snipers who are ranked in places nine through eleven below him. DeathChild, the first 30, is four places below him on the list because Mav decided that somehow, being five points below him in skill, Great's personality and legitimacy net him seven points above DC in those categories, allowing Great to overcome that gap and actually end up two points ahead of DC.

I don't deny that legitimacy is important for sniper rankings, especially looking in hindsight with the context that snipers largely died in 2009 due to people giving up the fight against hackers overwhelming and souring the community. It doesn't change the fact that LucK somehow ended up ranked below Great thanks to achieving the same point total while having a higher overall skill rating and a lower (7 compared to 9) legitimacy. Here's what Mav says: "She has never been caught hacking before and has been willing to record when demanded. The outcome of... those recorded matches are usually up to par with how she would perform... without the camera. One thing that lingers... are RUMORS of her owning a copy of SA... [from] 2006." (Emphases mine.) Somehow this knocks her down to a seven legitimacy rating? She could have had just one more point, an eight, and she would have been top ten instead.

Does anyone really think the following snipers should be ranked below Great: DeathChild, EdGe, LoKz, TtS, LucK when considering the top snipers of all time? It's this awkward juxtaposition of Mav releasing something that's meant to feel like a legitimate and final listing of the top 101 snipers of all time, while it really ends up just being a very personal and biased construction that looks rather whimsical--and admittedly so, because if all else fails and two snipers are equal in merits of skill and legitimacy, Mav can decide that one of them has a better "personality" and score one higher than the other as he wants.

Edited for font, because Times is so damn small it's hard to read.
Edited by HaZy, Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:36 pm.
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LockeD
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Cry to me Newbs
Ok i think everyone got the point, which i agree to, that great doesnt belong there
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skiD
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Level 9
I think even Mav realized it man that's why he fled right after he posted it...
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LockeD
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Cry to me Newbs
Didnt he place him before you skid but then you paid him by paypal to not figure behind him.
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Aztec
Level 24
HaZy
Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:26 pm
Mav releasing something that's meant to feel like a legitimate and final listing of the top 101 snipers of all time, while it really ends up just being a very personal and biased construction that looks rather whimsical
Exactly what I have argued the entire time. Exactly why I'm confused people care so much about this.

And to add on to how biased it is, Mav hardly knows everyone.
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SpeciaLisT
Level 46
Aztec
Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:28 pm
HaZy
Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:26 pm
Mav releasing something that's meant to feel like a legitimate and final listing of the top 101 snipers of all time, while it really ends up just being a very personal and biased construction that looks rather whimsical
Exactly what I have argued the entire time. Exactly why I'm confused people care so much about this.

And to add on to how biased it is, Mav hardly knows everyone.
Uh he said it like 100x its his personal biased opinion...
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Aztec
Level 24
SpeciaLisT
Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:52 pm
Uh he said it like 100x its his personal biased opinion...
I'm not talking about Mav. I'm talking about all the people that so desperately want Mav's opinion to boost their ego.
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SpeciaLisT
Level 46
Aztec
Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:18 pm
SpeciaLisT
Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:52 pm
Uh he said it like 100x its his personal biased opinion...
I'm not talking about Mav. I'm talking about all the people that so desperately want Mav's opinion to boost their ego.
Why do u care what other people do? Keep To yourself. It's Mav's opinion and other ppl choose to look @ his list. Who cares if its accurate or not. Why does it bother you so much. Theres legit 3-4 posts of you posting your confusion with why people are doing the things they do. But honestly who cares?
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Relieve
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SoniC
Imo MavericK is a highly respected and reputable sniper so this list actually does mean alot, whether or not it is based on his biased perceptions or not, he has more experience than any of us and has played with probably 99.99% of all the snipers a fair amount of times to get an accurate rating. I agree with skiD on that legitimacy should be a huge factor when making these rankings.

I see these rankings as a way to look back on old times and reminisce on the greatest 101 players that used to play this game, the map is going to die very very soon, it makes for an interesting read and more like a sniper encyclopedia than a strict ranking system. I think some of you are taking this ranking system a bit too seriously and being too critical of Mav's ranking methods. Great was ranked ahead of snipers such as TtS, LucK, and DC, but you have to take into account that legitimacy plays a huge role in this. GreaT may not have been as good as any of the snipers listed above, but he was a darn good sniper. If this ranking excluded legitimacy then they would obviously be ahead of GreaT, but what kind of ranking system would that be?

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Aztec
Level 24
SpeciaLisT
Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:48 pm
Why do u care what other people do? Keep To yourself. It's Mav's opinion and other ppl choose to look @ his list. Who cares if its accurate or not. Why does it bother you so much. Theres legit 3-4 posts of you posting your confusion with why people are doing the things they do. But honestly who cares?
Sometimes I think you like to argue just for the sake of arguing.

Anyway, I'm curious why people care so much about it. And if that reason for caring has nothing to do with the ego, I'd like to know. Simple as that. There's no harm from it. You need to calm down, young lady.
Edited by Aztec, Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:54 pm.
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