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Episode 15; The Finale
Topic Started: Apr 22 2018, 10:15:37 AM (2,026 Views)
Master Hand
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An iron fist without the iron.
Pikachu was...


There's still time for FTC to change things but Ness has an incredibly uphill climb here.
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Isaac
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I feel like the theme of this game was exciting rounds with predictable results. Fitting the FTC will finish that theme.
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Xananab
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Robbed Goddess I'm sorry I started rooting for you it doomed you like all my other favs
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Isaac
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So while the FTC begins im gonna ask you all a question i ask often at the end of games: Who is on your Super Survivor Bros. DVD boxcase?

Id probably put Ike, Kirby, Pikachu on the top and then Ness, Jigglypuff and Falcon on the bottom.

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Red Bulborb
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No dk?????
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Red Bulborb
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Dk in Ike out. I think Mario and Yoshi and dedede would also go on the cover before ike
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Lyn
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I refuse to put the winner on the DVD boxcase. They always do.

In terms of interest or compelling players I'd probably put

Ike - Interesting player. He felt real and genuine. He played a solid game with flaws that came back to bite him, and his relationships were interesting to follow. His vote out was one of the more interesting ones because the cause of his elimination was more interesting than most.

C. Falcon - Another interesting addition to the game. Everyone's different reactions to him were great to see, and how varied they were. He kept the entertainment factor up, and how over the top he was edgically. Really fitting for a C. Falcon character.

Mario - Again, he was interesting because he played a unique game I feel, where he was upfront and honest all game, and always the underdog. Whenever you think he's the boot, something else happens and he stays in because he was able to do the right thing at the right time consistently before his boot.

Kirby - Dominant winner and very impressive game. He survived being sniped a couple times, especially in the first swap, so he certainly had to work for the win.

Pikachu - Shadoweh is always entertaining. A roller coaster of emotions all the way through, but a dominant player in everything.

Jiggly + DK: Favorite alliance of the game. Robbed too soon. They played to win, and it backfired only because Kirby was a beast.

So removing Kirby because he probably won, I'd put Pikachu, Falcon, Ike, Mario, Jiggly, and DK on the cover.
Dedede, Yoshi, Fox, Ness and a lot of the early boots were pretty great too. I don't think there were any duds. Good cast, good season imo.
Edited by Lyn, Apr 22 2018, 11:48:38 AM.
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Red Bulborb
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Not really loving juror Pika.
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Medli
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Neku for Smash!
While I understand not wanting to include the winner, in this case I think Kirby was an important enough player throughout the entire game that it would be more notable if he wasn't on it than if he was.
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Lyn
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Bless fox for being the one to play devil's advocate so it's not a complete blowout.

Also you're probably right Medlii.
Edited by Lyn, Apr 22 2018, 11:53:07 AM.
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Red Bulborb
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The legend of Dk's idol bluff lives
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Medli
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Neku for Smash!
I think maybe Jared might work as an off the box winner, but generally people win by being notable players. I'm blanking right now on other winners that could be safely taken off the cover of the DVD (even though I know there are ones), but while he wasn't quite as dominant as say Season Finale's Jesse or Mass Effect's Harbinger, I still think Kirby was too involved with the important parts of the game to be left out.

Anyway, I usually avoid spectating FTC for various reasons, and that's not going to change this time.
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Panther Caroso
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Susan and Karass spring to mind, though at least the latter is largely due to not having a great confessional
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Tabuu
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Isaac
Apr 22 2018, 10:43:29 AM
So while the FTC begins im gonna ask you all a question i ask often at the end of games: Who is on your Super Survivor Bros. DVD boxcase?

Id probably put Ike, Kirby, Pikachu on the top and then Ness, Jigglypuff and Falcon on the bottom.

I might swap ness out for mario?
And Id put falcon on top and bump Ike down.
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Piplup
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Kirby, Pikachu, Yoshi, Falcon, DK, one of [Ness/Mario] are probably my six?
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Paper Luigi
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me, Xananab, Lyn, Charizard, The President and Beast Ganon
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Palutena
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rip

cant say kirby doesnt deserve this but damn if it's not predictable and boring
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The President
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I absolutely share Pikachu's frustrations with this jury.
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The President
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Quote:
 
Does everyone know at this point about the idol that was hidden in the Mathematics Trivia quiz? Apparently they could go try to find it within the 10 minute time limit of the quiz but I don't think either DK or Luigi even tried -- probably too scared that the other would go for it. Plus like DK obviously didn't have it and Luigi didn't either


ahahahahahaha that's a funny legacy for our friend DK
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Panther Caroso
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This isn't going to get fun to watch anytime soon

Go home folks this one's over
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The President
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the fact that everyone is ridiculously misguided about the idols is hella fun.

otherwise no, juries are not usually fun daytime viewing. just the way juries are.
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Beast Ganon
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ffffffffff
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Beast Ganon
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I liked ete jurytime
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Slippy Toad
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EtE jury was boring af.

School jury is where it's at.
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Slippy Toad
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Actually no LoL jury was the best.
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Beast Ganon
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your mom jury boring
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The President
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EtE jury managed to magically convince me to vote for someone I hated over two people I liked quite a lot and played well, it was a spooky experience. Ned's/LoL juries were very dramatic and all, if you're into that.

With Fox's hardpush of Ness here, it is worth mentioning that Fox has pushed hard for someone to win who he didn't want to win or vote for before haha. As Tyrael.
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Isaac
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Red Bulborb
Apr 22 2018, 11:29:43 AM
No dk?????
For me I usually put, at most one person from pre-merge. Between Jigglypuff and DK, while DK was certainly an amazing player to view, I think Jigglypuff was a much more dynamic figure in the game. DK's plays wouldn't have gone off without her support, and she was a favorite to win early on, whereas DK never found his footing. It would be a tough call. If I was being honest, I think I could even find myself bumping Ness off the DVD cover for DK instead, but I still feel Ness shaped a lot of this game, for better or worse.
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Mr. Resetti
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Just put all of NuBlue tribe on it
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Cardboard Box
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I see this actually being a close TC, since Ike and Fox are both locks for Ness. I can see Ness swaying one more person with a decent FTC or using the "I was never targeted and everyone wanted me at the end, so therefore I'm obviously the best player" argument. If Kirby loses, I'll say he was robbed unless he has the worst speech of all time, though.
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Isaac
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I certainly hope Ness can put up a really good fight to make it a nice 4-3 victory, but I agree if Ness somehow does pull this victory out, Kirby would have been robbed. Ness played great, but against Kirby I don't see it as a winning game.

Maybe Kirby will flub his jury management and piss people off. Ness is as sweet as pie and I don't see him really botching his FTC performance as easily as Kirby might.
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Waluigi
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Isaac
Apr 22 2018, 10:37:39 AM
I feel like the theme of this game was exciting rounds with predictable results. Fitting the FTC will finish that theme.
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Waluigi
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Palutena
Apr 22 2018, 04:43:36 PM
rip

cant say kirby doesnt deserve this but damn if it's not predictable and boring
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Waluigi
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IN HINDSIGHT GAME STARTING SUCKING WHEN JIGGLY LEFT
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Nintendo 64
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Panther Caroso
Apr 22 2018, 01:31:35 PM
Susan and Karass spring to mind, though at least the latter is largely due to not having a great confessional
You take that back :(
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Panther Caroso
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Hey, it's not necessarily bad to be not the center of attention.
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Panther Caroso
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That said I should know better than to make posts like that one because I invariably do it poorly.
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Mr. Resetti
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don't we all.
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Mr. Resetti
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Since I can't actually go and rant at the jury members, who would like me to type up what I may or may not have written here?
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Beast Ganon
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ye
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Donkey Kong
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Ook
The President
Apr 22 2018, 04:48:09 PM
Quote:
 
Does everyone know at this point about the idol that was hidden in the Mathematics Trivia quiz? Apparently they could go try to find it within the 10 minute time limit of the quiz but I don't think either DK or Luigi even tried -- probably too scared that the other would go for it. Plus like DK obviously didn't have it and Luigi didn't either


ahahahahahaha that's a funny legacy for our friend DK
:D

I hadn't realised Kirby never told him it was a fake. I really hope this comes up at FTC in some way.
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Galaxia Darkness
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nvm
Edited by Galaxia Darkness, Apr 23 2018, 11:16:16 AM.
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Beast Ganon
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same tbh
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Paper Luigi
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I don't like this Outwit/Outplay/Outlast crap tbh
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Master Hand
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An iron fist without the iron.
I do like it, because it forces the Jury to at least think about all three aspects of the game.
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Donkey Kong
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Ook
I think splitting it up into categories is okay, but these categories aren't great - it was obviously made as a catchy slogan and was never supposed to be 3 separate aspects.

Like, outplay in the show's context means challenge performance, but the word itself would mean voting and alliances and such too. Outwit fits pretty well into the voting and alliances portion, but it doesn't really cover general socialising and getting to know people, which it is supposed to. Then you have outlast, which I think is supposed to be about Jury management and how you thought you'd gain their votes, but the word implies nothing like that.
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Red Bulborb
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Yeah I never understand what is what with these. Maybe it's interesting to have the players talk in the same threads as each other though.

I guess it's just meant to be
Social Game
Strategic Game
Challenges and Idols and shit

but trying to cram those into the labels outwit/outplay/outlast always struck me as forced, not that that matters ultimately, as long as everyone does know which is for which
Edited by Red Bulborb, Apr 23 2018, 11:10:54 AM.
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Master Hand
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An iron fist without the iron.
The three pillars of gameplay are social, strategic, and structural. Outwit and Outplay cover strategic and structural. Outlast for Social is admittedly a stretch.
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Galaxia Darkness
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Red Bulborb
Apr 23 2018, 11:09:05 AM
Yeah I never understand what is what with these. Maybe it's interesting to have the players talk in the same threads as each other though.

I guess it's just meant to be
Social Game
Strategic Game
Challenges and Idols and shit

but trying to cram those into the labels outwit/outplay/outlast always struck me as forced, not that that matters ultimately, as long as everyone does know which is for which
Yeah, I hate this format. It makes it hard to link ideas. I like ^ interpretation though!
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Master Hand
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An iron fist without the iron.
Would people prefer it if we just called the threads "Social", "Strategic", and "Structural"? I'm not opposed, although we lose the thematic tiein.
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Medli
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Neku for Smash!
On the show, outlast could also just refer to living on a deserted island or wherever for over a month.
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Master Hand
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An iron fist without the iron.
Fuck it, I'm doing it because I am mad with power.
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Red Bulborb
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I had thought Outlast, to be a very appropriate word to describe the Survivor game, but it is achieved by all finalists, by virtue of their making it to the end. But, Jeff had been interested in the branding, and utilizing the Survivor motto, so he had tried to force it into the FTC. I do not think, we need to use the same words here.
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Beast Ganon
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Red Bulborb
Apr 23 2018, 11:40:51 AM
I had thought Outlast, to be a very appropriate word to describe the Survivor game, but it is achieved by all finalists, by virtue of their making it to the end. But, Jeff had been interested in the branding, and utilizing the Survivor motto, so he had tried to force it into the FTC. I do not think, we need to use the same words here.
return of jared
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Isaac
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I would just let them each have their own thread to ask questions honestly... i would be kinda pissed if i was on this jury and had this post restriction tbh. This is suppose to be the jurors moment and this feels... idk kinda meh.
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Red Bulborb
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i was reading the opening speeches thinking i liked ness's more than kirby's, and that just by the speeches, ness's game seemed as good as kirby's until i got to this:
Quote:
 
In the meantime, Dedede was voted off (unfortunately a round later than I had planned!) and I was at Final 4, with Yoshi wanting to vote for Kirby, and Kirby/Pikachu wanting to vote Yoshi. I feel the need to say that I really thought hard about this decision, and whether tying the vote up would be worth it, and I hadn't actually made my final decision until very shortly before the TC deadline (I think I went from voting Yoshi, to voting Kirby, then back to voting Yoshi again). I do need to apologise to Yoshi for this though, as you never showed anything but loyalty to me and I am sorry for betraying you there.

yes it was a big decision, yes you thought hard about, and yes you voted out yoshi. i mean that was already self-evident. but WHY??? he doesnt say. why bring this action up if hes not going to explain it? hes just reminding the entire jury of one of his biggest blunders@
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Red Bulborb
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lmao Fox's big post just roasting the rest of the jury, ftw.
Edited by Red Bulborb, Apr 23 2018, 01:04:59 PM.
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Paper Luigi
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Fox is the hero we all wanted
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Paper Luigi
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but lmao I'm sure there's gonna be some popcorn popping and some bellies aching after that one
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Red Bulborb
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I think it's funny he spent so much time venting about his fellow jurors but I don't really like that he let the cat out of the bag about the likely outcome, it just makes ftc less fun (even though we all knew it already, and even though Kirby and Ness would have been able to pick up on the tenor of the questioning easily enough). I just dont like him doing away with even the pretense of any suspense
Edited by Red Bulborb, Apr 23 2018, 01:25:39 PM.
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Galaxia Darkness
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D3s questions are super strange?
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Cardboard Box
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Certain people on this jury are ridiculously petty. I also feel as though if someone less popular than Fox in the MS community had made that post, the reaction would have been MUCH less positive here, because it infuriated me on so many levels.
Edited by Cardboard Box, Apr 23 2018, 02:06:09 PM.
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Cardboard Box
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Pikachu
 
whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy did you betray meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
i was never going to work with you and tried to kill uyou every round
but you betrayed meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
i only lied to your faaaaaaaaace why didn't you gravitate back to me, the center of the universssseee

So much this. Like, I was a bitter juror in my first game, but at least it was because I played like a paladin and was horrified at the concept of, gasp, betrayal! If you're being a schemey backstabber, you can't complain that you were outplayed by other schemey backstabbers.
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Crazy Hand
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Cardboard Box
Apr 23 2018, 02:05:49 PM
Certain people on this jury are ridiculously petty. I also feel as though if someone less popular than Fox in the MS community had made that post, the reaction would have been MUCH less positive here, because it infuriated me on so many levels.
I get what you're saying. I can't vouch either way about Fox himself or the MS community. I know that Fox has had some need of personal contemplation and I asked him if he would come back to the forums and participate in the ending, not just with the FTC, but making sure he would be okay. It is petty, and you're right and validated in being infuriated at what he's written. However, I also understand his viewpoint as well since we had a couple discussions in which his comfort level had changed quite dramatically during this game. I'm proud of him for coming back, and not hiding what he has feeling inside. It's okay to be mad. It's okay to cry. It's okay to be happy.
Just like I ask all of you constantly for your feedbacks and criticisms, I feel it's healthier to air grievances out loud. I'm not asking you to change your mind, just to think that our thoughts would be slightly different if we walked two moons in someone else's moccasins.
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Galaxia Darkness
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I don't think casting fox is a wise idea for a while. I don't think anything is 'okay'.

again, i think cardboard is me from another universe. A lot of fox's points seem to be 'he outplayed you so you..shouldn't vote for him'. I agree it took a while for me, as a juror, to reconcile the people who did me the most wrong probably outplayed me the best.
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Master Hand
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An iron fist without the iron.
Slow down, Kirby. You can be confident in front of a jury but you can't be cocky.
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Red Bulborb
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yeah the "Don't you dare say I lied" response to Mario isn't necessary or productive. I could see Ness possibly stealing Mario's vote to go with a potential Fox vote, and there could be another Ness vote somewhere too. But I still see three votes as Ness's maximum. We'll see!
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Red Bulborb
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Like he really did receive that PM from Mario, so he's right in what he's saying, but he's being defensive about it instead of tactful.
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Crazy Hand
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Galaxia Darkness
Apr 23 2018, 02:23:00 PM
I don't think casting fox is a wise idea for a while. I don't think anything is 'okay'.

again, i think cardboard is me from another universe. A lot of fox's points seem to be 'he outplayed you so you..shouldn't vote for him'. I agree it took a while for me, as a juror, to reconcile the people who did me the most wrong probably outplayed me the best.
Also a very valid point.
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Amy
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I don't have any problem with Fox's speech, I don't really disagree with any of it. But I also don't think he should be cast again for his own sake any time in the near future!
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Beast Ganon
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Cardboard Box
Apr 23 2018, 02:05:49 PM
Certain people on this jury are ridiculously petty.
this is just juries
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Medli
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Neku for Smash!
When it comes down to it, who wins doesn't even matter. There's no prize waiting at the end, and either way the game's over. This is a game, the main objective is to have fun. FTCs as they are handled now almost always fail this objective for everyone involved.

Maybe this is a terrible outlook to have, but I'd prefer to lose while having fun and playing a game I was proud of than win while feeling like I was crawling through hell to make it happen. Don't get me wrong, I do want to win, but if I do I want it to be on my terms. To be honest, the fact that most people appear to disagree with this sentiment is probably why the LSG scene here has gotten as big as it has, so maybe I'm wrong here, I don't know.

There is so much I want to say here, but I just can't put it together into a cohesive post that wouldn't make me the bad guy here, so I'll stick with this for now.
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Medli
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Neku for Smash!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGMWL8cOeAU

I'm just going to leave this here. It's a song from a video game soundtrack that always stood out to me. Take from it what you will.
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The President
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I don't really buy the social game/strategic game as separate, honestly. I think a social game's purpose is to manipulate people into achieving your strategic goals. I would probably separate Survivor as a game into Challenges&Shit/Strategic/Tactical. Strategic being, what's your bootlist, who do you want to get out, will it get you to the end with someone beatable? And tactical being, how well can you communicate with others and make them like you in order to acheive that goal.
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Beast Ganon
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how well can you ruthlessly backstab your allies at f6
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The President
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The general threshold for "is this jury bitter" is, do I agree with them? Thus, why Dawn got death threats instead of Brenda.
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The President
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For what it's worth (nothing), I think Fox is right about how annoying Cap and Yoshi and others have been in the jury forum, and I don't disagree with the speech. I mean, I instinctively disagree with the tone because I avoid conflict like a mouse.
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Cardboard Box
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Re: social game only being lubricant for your gamebot engine, I feel like you're underrating just how important being likable and fun to talk to is. I think it was Reck who called Survivor an emotional game with strategic trappings. People who are too cold and overtly backstabby get voted out because no one trusts them. That's why I can't be too mad some people are turned off by Kirby seeming a bit snaky, even if there's some hypocrisy involved.
Edited by Cardboard Box, Apr 23 2018, 05:06:32 PM.
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Cardboard Box
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I really don't think the jury was that bad backstage. They were discussing turns of events and maybe upselling their games a bit, but it's not like they were toxic or going, "you played an awful game, Chevre."

Also, behaviour should not be judged morally by "will this get me death threats?"
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Cardboard Box
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And I frankly don't think the sentiment behind it comes across as "you guys are behaving really badly" so much as "how dare you vote me out of the game and do better than me?", which I feel is a bit entitled and unfair to the other finalists and jurors, even if it's rooted in a lot of insecurity and unhappiness.
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