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FTC thoughtfulness space
Topic Started: Aug 27 2017, 08:16:30 PM (217 Views)
Boudica
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Setting aside a dedicated space here to flesh out stuff for FTC, make sure I'm happy with responses, etc. I have plenty of time to respond to things, no need for me to rush.
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Boudica
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Gilg
 
Boudica, you had fantastic strategic play. You surrounded yourself with people who were your shields and managed to stay far enough behind the line of fire that you always had options. However, you literally had to rely solely on Alex to have a brain fart and make a poor strategic decision in order to save yourself at F6. How can you explain your strategy in a way that overlooks the fact that you'd be completely dead at F6 were it not for one other person making a bad decision?


I think it comes down to the fact that my strategic game doesn't exist in a vacuum - it exists in coexistence with the agendas that everyone else was jockeying for, and in that moment the poor reads of others ended up putting me in a weak position. Alex should have been gone at 7. He was the biggest threat in the game to just about every person, between the relationships he had, his challenge prowess, and the items in his pocket, the vote really should have been a no brainer. But that didn't happen, and as a result I got put on the outs and left out of everyone's endgame plans, whereas a world that has Alex leaving both paves the way for me to win the next few challenges and opens up the game for me to work into other people's plans.
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Boudica
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Gilg
 
Boudica, I think your social game was your biggest weakness. It was very hard to connect with you on a personal level until very late in the game, which made it harder to see a path forward together. Can you explain your decision to isolate yourself socially and only reach out to others when necessary?


It was never an active decision to isolate myself, but you're right that my social game was weak relative to the other aspects of my game. For whatever reason, I found it hard this game to connect with people on a really personal level. I managed it with a few people pretty well - Theo and Hatty were perhaps the people I managed it best with, and I think earlier in the game I was better about it than later on. Still, it's definitely a space where I failed to truly excel, so I had to step up in other areas because I knew that I couldn't trust people to be bought into me on a personal level, so I had to get them bought into me based on their self-interest.

If there's a perception that I only reached out when necessary, I'm sorry. I pmed about as much as I could given real life considerations. If that felt like not enough, there's not much more I could have done.
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Boudica
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Okay, going to sleep. Going to edit and post these in the morning before work.
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Boudica
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Julius
 
Boudicca - As much as I'm your biggest fan this FTC, your social game was comparatively very lacking come the merge imo. Why should we excuse your lacking social game due to your strong strategic showing?


Because, even though we're only talking about each aspect of our games individually here, everything exists in the context of each other. Yes, I failed to be as much of a social butterfly butterfly as Theodora, but I feel the aggregate of my social+strategic play still surpasses hers. It's not like my social game was actively terrible - it was good enough to have the requisite baseline for people to work with me. I also think that I showed an awareness that my social game wasn't my strong point in how I approached people in the game. I knew people weren't going to buy into me on a personal level, so I focused my arguments around why people should buy into me out of their own self interest.
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Boudica
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Partyello
 
ur job at this ftc is 2 convince me 2 b ok w voting 4 u even tho im not sure i know u well enough 2 want u 2 win. make me b ok w voting 4 u 4 playing the best game, which u may have, even tho ur weaker social game cld b seen as a flaw.


I guess the first thing I should say to you is that I'm sorry. It's tangential to this here, but I know after the F9 vote when we were talking, you said that you just wanted to chat more about stuff, and we did for a bit, but then I let the game get in the way again and dropped the non-game related content. For what it's worth, I enjoyed our conversation.

That said, I think you know more about me than maybe you realize. We didn't talk about stuff that much, per se, but I think there's still a lot you know about me. You know that I'm a serious person. You know that I'm a workaholic. You know that I'm not super warm and bubbly and there to make you feel good. You know that I stay true to my word - I was the only person loyal to you, in the end, even though you'd almost stabbed me in the back a few rounds prior.

Ultimately, how you weigh everything Theodora opened up to you about herself versus the actions I took in this game is your decision, but, as I said in response to Julius, the aggregate of my social + strategic surpasses hers. In focusing so much on the game and the strategy, I neglected the personal relationships, but I still had the requisite level to do what I needed to do to get here.
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Boudica
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Augustus
 
Boudica: Good. Game. I just want to say i like how you made it here. Let's say in some alternate universe, Indus Valley doesn't swap, and loses every IC. What do you do in this universe?


I don't like to make excuses, but that first Thursday of the game, I was completely without access for work reasons. That put me at a disadvantage that I would have had to have overcome in that tribe. That said, I would have taken the following two measures:

1) Zara Yaqob was going to be the first boot of that tribe unless some weird shit happened. The guy was very weird, and his ouster would have bought me time to start building relationships. That was time that I, more than other people on the tribe, was going to have to make very good use of. In the first few votes of the game, personal relationships matter much more than strategic interests.

2) Identify who I needed to endear myself to to put myself into a 4 or 5 person majority. Given the MS meta of swap-heavy games, it wouldn't have been worthwhile to jockey for control of the tribe, since that would have risked the power players taking me out. Instead, it would have been better to identify who was going to control the majority, and hustle my ass off to make myself a part of it. Should that fail, then gunning for the power players would have been a last-ditch effort.

Obviously, #2 ran the risk of failing, but so does everything in this game. That said, I think the fact that I survived an America that lost 1/2 its members, and the fact that I survived those F6 and F5 votes is a testament to the fact that I could survive. I tied for the most pre-merge TCs attended with Nap and Hatshepsut (excluding the Terra Incognita TCs), and I survived the losingest tribe during the longest tribal phase of the pre-merge. I think that demonstrates the skill set that I would have made it work.
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Boudica
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Quote:
 
What's your favorite food?


God this is such a hard question why did you ask this???
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Boudica
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Ugh Gilgamesh making me answer hard questions.

He also apparently doesn't understand that everyone is always held to the whims of others in this game. Like, I used a strategy that required people not to vote me out. That's literally what everyone does.
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Boudica
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I have a lot of shit to respond to when I get home.
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Boudica
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An interesting point, though, is Augustus pointing out that I'm universally loved by the jury while the jury is broadly slamming me for my relatively weak social game.

I can use that.
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Boudica
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Gilgamesh
 
I could see how the poor reads of others put you in a weak position.

However, isn't there something to be said for the fact that your game put you in the position where you were at the whims of others? I do like your meatshield strategy and it's the primary reason you're my favorite coming into FTC, but the flip side of that strategy is that it left you with only a handful of paths forward, which let other players take out people around you that you might've needed. Had you not allowed yourself to be put in a position where Pocatello was taken down... had you been able to save Maria... then Alex could've easily gone at F7 and there'd be no tied vote at F6 and you wouldn't have to try to explain away the fact that your game was entirely in the hands of Alex making a boneheaded decision.

Really, that's my problem with all three of the finalists: you all seemed to be passengers throughout merge, never making a successful strategic move that really opened the game up for you.
So, it's hard to award someone the point on "outwit" because it seems like none of you really did.


Regarding your first point, there is literally no way to play this game that doesn't put you up to the whims of others short of winning literally every challenge. You are always one vote (Alex's cache of items notwithstanding). And there are a multitude of ways to try to keep yourself safe. Instead of gunning for overt control, where I would be the queen waiting to be usurped, I instead chose to sit back and wait to usurp the throne myself.

In a world where I control the F8 vote and get Julius booted, and then I manage to take Alex out at 7, is the rest of the game really easier for me? I still would have had to work as hard in those final rounds to secure my spot in FTC, except instead of being the scrappy underdog, I'm the person in a position of power trying to hold everything together so that nobody usurps the throne from me. The arguments change, but the threat stays the same, and I'd still have to argue how I managed to survive by "the mistakes of others."
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Boudica
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Harald
 
Theodora/Boudica, why lie to me about wanting to keep me around but choosing to go with the flow to cover your asses? It seemed abundantly clear between the reactions I got from other people and the conversations that happened in the Jury forum that you two were lying to me there.

I honestly don't think any of you did especially great with jury management when it came to my vote. Proving me wrong by explaining your approach at jury management this game will go a long way towards your getting my vote.


You're right, I did lie to you there. And you're right that my approach to jury management in that moment wasn't good. I considered telling you multiple times, but I didn't. I was concerned that you would take the information and try to shake things up, and I didn't want things shaken up there. I may have been immune that round, but what if you managed to flip it against Theodora? Against Pocatello? It would have weakened my positioning going forward.

Maybe that was projection, though. Because I understood how far I would go to save my ass when I knew it was on the line, maybe I felt like you would betray me if I tried to do you a solid there. Because that's what I would have done.

So, at the end of the day, I valued maintaining the status quo and coasting forward over keeping you in the game in that moment, and I took that to the point of lying to you. Given my position now, I don't think I made the wrong choice in voting you out.
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Boudica
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Gilgamesh
 
I understand real life stuff. I had a shitstorm of personal stuff during this game and was working 60+ hours per week, so I totally get it. However, when you DID communicate with people, it was lacking. It was one or two bland sentences at best and it felt like so much work to try to communicate with you.

In fact, I at first did NOT want to go with the me/you/Alex/Theo foursome because you were so empty and distant, and it took Theo pleading on your behalf and convincing you to open up to me for me to be comfortable with it. Would you say your social game somewhat relied upon Theo's fantastic social game to do the work for you?


My PMs with you were short. My pms with a lot of people in this game ended up being very short, especially in the early merge. I was always responsive, and I was always giving something, but I was definitely holding back. Like I said, I was coasting, and I was choosing to withhold information as to not give people things to use against me (remember my PM about buying a girl a drink first after you said I was being tight lipped?). In the process, though, I definitely erred on being curt over just, like, talking about nothing, and in retrospect that may have been a mistake.

And I was very much aware that my position in the game was contingent on relationships more cultivated by Theodora than myself. Like you said, I was executing on a meat shield strategy. I wanted people's eyes on Theodora, not me, so that I could coast just well enough to get to where I needed to to start showing my strategic chops. And I was very much aware that my position as Theo's sidekick was enough to keep me in the game until shit got real cray.
Edited by Boudica, Aug 28 2017, 05:57:57 PM.
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Boudica
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Augustus
 
Boudica: You and I didn't talk much. at all on Indus Valley. Yet, you said you wanted to work with me as early as the joint Asia/Americas TC. Did you have a strategic reason for that obviously fake relationship?


That relationship wasn't obviously fake. I was invested in that until you backstabbed me in that round.

We hadn't talked much on Indus Valley, but there was that first couple hours of the Dido TC where I was talking only with you and Hannibal, and I felt like we connected well there. I was shocked when you didn't tell me that Asia was voting for me, even after I explicitly asked you to tell me if you caught wind of anything. I ended up venting a bit in my confessional, and here's what I wrote about you:

me
 
Augustus has 0 backbone. Like, dude couldn't even be bothered to tell me that the vote from his tribe was swinging my way when I explicitly asked him to. Like, glad to see you 0% have my back in any meaningful way. I'll make sure to go real far out of the way to help you when I hear your name come up.


I was hurt and angry in this moment, and I was hurt because I legitimately thought we had connected.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say here is that your question is built on a false premise. I wasn't trying to fake a relationship with you. As for the strategic reason, I was trying to build as many 1-1 connections as I could during the joint TCs in order to put myself in a more advantageous position going into the swaps. As Theodora has already discussed, she and I connected initially during the joint TCs she had with America.
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Boudica
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Washington
 
Boudica, I'm also curious about your jury management, but I know you have pending questions there. More generally, what was your jury management strategy?


I would say there were two aspects to my jury management strategy:

1) Manage expectations with people. Demonstrate that I was willing to work with people on a round-by-round basis, but don't commit to a series of promises that I can't ultimately follow through on.

2) Take actions in public fora to bolster my own case at the end.

Regarding number one, I had this sort of relationship with a number of people. I avoided promising F3s until the end of the game so as to mitigate the number of people on the jury who would be actively upset at me and rooting against me. While I wasn't fully successful in this regard, for the most part I didn't put people on the jury who were rooting against me.

Number two was a bonus to making the public posts that I made. All those posts, in that moment, primarily served to keep me in the game, but even as I was writing them I was aware of their secondary use of being things I could point to to bolster my case at the end of the game. This was important especially in the context of people in the early merge not really seeing me show off strategic chops because I was choosing to bite my tongue. Hell, Willem made jury having barely interacted with me at all in this game. I had to show the jury that I was here to play, and doing something super fucking ostentatious was a pretty good way of doing that.
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Boudica
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Washington
 
Was Redemption Island an asset or an obstacle for your game?

Describe how the auction impacted the game for you.

This game was full of a lot of twists. Looking back, what would you have done differently in response to one of these unexpected mechanics?


1) I think it ended up helping me slightly with who came home. Hannibal coming back into the game and immediately gunning for Harald broke down the potential 5v5 at merge and ended up pushing it to a 4v4. If things had been a straight 5v5 without the returners, the first few votes become a lot harder instead of me being able to coast fairly comfortably to F8.

2) The auction was bad for me. I literally won nothing. Alex ended up with a mountain of items to bolster his strong play and position in the game. I still made it work.

3) I would have made more of an effort reaching out to people during the first joint TC. That was the one of the three where I put in the least hustle, since the Saladin boot was a foregone conclusion, and building a relationship at that point in time with more people could have served me positively going forward. Specifically, I very much neglected Willem and Montezuma during that TC, and that Montezuma relationship could have been helpful in New World to make that phase of the game a lot less stressful.
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Boudica
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Augustus
 
Boudica: How much do you think immunity wins helped you in the long run?


I feel they definitely helped me.

The first didn't help me directly in the context of the game (and arguably was detrimental in the sense that it caused people to peg me as a challenge threat), but it did help my confidence. Prior to that point, I had been absolutely awful in challenges. Like, you can go back and look at my pre-merge challenge performance and it's, uh, really bad. Other than Match Game and Codenames to an extent, I sucked in all the pre-merge challenges. However, winning Borobudur so dominantly made me stop and think, wait a minute, maybe I actually win these challenges.

The second and third wins both guaranteed my safety right as the game started getting hectic. There's a very real possibility of either of those votes turning against me, and having that necklace around my neck was the only way to guarantee safety.

The three wins in aggregate were also important in me bolstering my case for people to keep me in the game. Specifically at F5, I stayed in this game partially because I was viewed as more beatable than Alex while more likely than anyone else to beat him in the FIC. My challenge prowess turned me into a necessary evil to stop Alex from steamrolling the game.
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Boudica
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Working on my responses to Alex's question.

Thanks, bro. It's a good one for me to reframe a lot of arguments.
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Boudica
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Alex
 


Boudica I believe you played in a way a better social game than the other 2 here. Or at least one that deserves to be recognized as good! or at least...something...
anyways, I would like you to touch on your social game/why you think its better than the other 2. I believe you played a more compelling one but I am curious as to see how you view it, since it was your game!!

as a hint I believe to have a good social game you first of all need to make these alliances and these friends but also you need to do things with it, you need to show you can get people to do what you want or else what does your "social game" mean.

Basically, no matter how likable or how many alliances you are in it doesn't matter if you don't or can't do anything with it.
Social game is a lot more complex than having alliances/friends! Boudica I believe you played a different social game than those around you, and it should be respected just as much if not more.

plz talk about this, or if you did and I missed it point to that.

For the rest of my questions/things I would like discussed will come tomorrow!

also, I wanted to say congratulations ;)


Thanks stud ;)

I think a lot of it comes down to how how we define what is "social," what is "strategic," and where the lines blur. This FTC format encourages us to think about each of these as individual aspects of our games, not aspects that informed one another and were implicitly tied together into a whole. I'm trying to bridge that together in some of my answers, but I think this is a good place to do it more explicitly.

A lot of what I did very successfully that I defined as "tactics" in my opening speech were things that demonstrated a strong social game. In particular, I'm going to loop back to "the right arguments to the right people at the right times." During the final rounds of the game, I was able to go to people with the arguments I needed to in order to get them to work with me, even when I had been against them, or them against me, just a round prior. And that wasn't only a thing that I did at the end of the game. From the moment I flipped Liz to my side, I was doing something right to get people to be willing to work with me.

And that's an implicitly social thing! That requires being able to look at someone and say "what are this person's motivations in this moment. What are the types of things I can say to compel them to my side, even if it's not necessarily in their best interests." Because, at the end of the day, we each had our own objectives in every round, and I focused on trying to identify whose motivations at a given moment were aligned with mine, and present the argument to them in a way that it all made sense. Even though I wasn't being the most bubbly person in the world, and I wasn't convincing other people to do what I wanted because I wanted it. I was convincing them to do what I wanted because I got them to want it.

And I think this contrasts strongly with Theo's social game. Theo was more of a social butterfly than I was, and she got people more invested in working with her on a personal level than I did. But she ultimately let people come to her with why she should do what they wanted. She let other people build the cases, and then agonized over what was the correct choice. She didn't say "this is what I want, who do I need to talk to to make this happen," and I think it ultimately comes down to a lack of a complete sense of how to influence people. She could charm people into wanting to work with her, but she couldn't persuade them to do what she wanted.
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Boudica
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Man the great part about this deluging strategy is great for putting my best foot forward. Lets me build some pretty cogent stuff informed by what other people are saying.
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Boudica
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I feel mean going in on Stalin on that one but at the same time like dude made 0 fucking sense.
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Boudica
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Willem
 
A lot of the strategy stuff has been discussed here and I feel no need to add to that. Rather, I feel it is important to remember that this is a game and the primary goal should be to enjoy it.

So, I would like to ask, did you enjoy the game? What did you enjoy about it? And do you feel that you made it an enjoyable game for others as well?


I had fun.

I like pushing myself, and Survivor is a fast-paced game for me to do that in. There is so much that goes into this game - strategy, tactics, challenges, interpersonal relationships, debate, etc. It's constantly changing and dynamic, and so it's a constant series of challenges to try to tackle. Plus, it's stressful, which leads to crazy adrenaline highs. After F6, F5, and F4, I was physically shaking from how excited I was. That kind of shit is really fun for me. I love the intensity. Even in times where I was ostensibly coasting, I was active in my confessional trying to think about my best options, what I should do down the road, etc.

I think I made the game more fun for others as well. Most people prefer to go up against someone who doesn't give up and makes things challenging as dynamic, and I gave that in spades. I also feel that how I presented my arguments mitigated toxicity, since I was limiting emotional manipulation and trying to push my cases through the lens of people's self-interests.
Edited by Boudica, Aug 29 2017, 07:27:01 PM.
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Boudica
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Julius
 
Boudicca, one other thing I'd like to ask you about here. You and Alex made similar moves in the back half of the game, yet many jurors were left with a bad taste in their mouth when Alex did them, but not you. Why do you think that is?


I think it comes down to the relative positions we had in the game. Alex was to dog for most of the post-merge. He had a ton of social and strategic connections. He had a million items. He was strong in challenges, boasting the strongest pre-merge challenge record of everyone to make merge. And so every time Alex got his way, which happened every round until F5, it was the big bad of the game getting his way. And that's boring. I'm sure the specs did their edgic and had Alex as the favorite to win for a very long time. Nobody likes a steamroll, except for the dude executing it.

I was the scrappy underdog. Each thing I did moved me one step forward, giving me another chance to fight to usurp the king. Every immunity I won was another chance for me to try to disrupt the flow. Flipping the vote at the very end of F6 gave me a fighting chance to disrupt Alex down the road, and then me flipping it at 5 again gave me the final chance I needed. People like to root for underdogs, at the end of the day :)
Edited by Boudica, Aug 29 2017, 07:32:43 PM.
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Boudica
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Man I'm reading some of my old confessionals while on the toilet at work.

Remember that time I agonized over a Liz vs Stalin vote and it ended up not mattering at all? Fun times
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Sappho
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is that going to be the stage for your next video confessional?
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Boudica
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No
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Boudica
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Also man Maria WENT IN
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Boudica
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Okay cool internet is fixed time to edit those shitty phoneposted responses and put them in threads.
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Boudica
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Jk time to go play soccer in a dress.

My drag name is Booty Ka
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Boudica
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Man Kilby really likes comparing things to MvGX endgame.
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Boudica
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Alexander
 
The other day I mentioned how this game was a lot like MVGX. I was David (dominated the game) Boudica was Adam (constantly talked about David being a threat, often on the bottom/made mistakes/survived) Nap was Ken (loyal to David ends up cutting him because wants to win not realized Adam was a threat as well, didn’t play his own game/played too late) and Theo was Hannah (indesive, emotional, could have done well but turned into goat) Finalists tell me if you agree/disagree with this and why also for fun if you disagree what survivor do you think your game relates to the most. Also if you want to relate it to a MS game/person I am fine with that.


I think there are definitely valid aspects to your comparison. Nothing is ever going to be a truly perfect comparison, but I think there's a lot of aspects of Adam's game that I reflected in my own. Adam and I both were willing to try shit; we weren't afraid of making mistakes and having to get back up. I showed a lot of the same fight that Adam did in terms of just never giving up (even though he was doing it for much better reasons than I was in this game, lol). Adam was able to build up the narrative about David and ultimately let him take the fall to go to an FTC where the jury would walk in favoring him, much like I did to you.

I think there are elements of the game that are different, though. Obviously our lens on Adam's game is limited based on what was shown to us, but one difference is I think that Adam panicked a lot more easily than I did (the merge episode of MvGX was probably the biggest example of where he freaked out). Even when I was being directly pressured and under attack, I feel I did a good job keeping things calm enough to triage the situation and figure out what I needed to do. I obviously was still stressed that I could very well go home, but I kept it under wraps.

Similarly, I think the comparison of you to David falls short in the sense that you were a favorite basically from the moment this game began. David was interesting and compelling because he started out so out of his element, but he built some relationships with a few people and started really figuring out the game while he was out there. You came in with a strong toolkit, David developed his toolkit while he was out there.

As far as which Survivor I would compare myself to, across all seasons, I don't think any single Survivor perfectly, or even near-perfectly reflects the game I played. Maybe Adam's constant willingness to push forward after things didn't fall his way puts him closest to me. Maybe how I handled toppling the majority, using the person at the top instead of the people at the bottom, makes me closer to Danni Boatwright. Maybe my ostentatious displays of #bigmoves and my ability to constantly dodge bullets makes me like Wentworth or Ciera. Maybe my transactional nature, my ability to work with anyone in any moment, makes me like Sandra (lol jk I'm not nearly as good as her). I don't think there's a clean parallel to any one person, but I think I pulled inspiration from a range of real Survivors to try to stitch together the game that worked best for me.
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Boudica
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Need to edit the above and post it. I have Julius, Alex, and Maria, and it sounds like the jury was broadly rooting for me going in, so I think I'm in a pretty good spot?
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Boudica
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Man I want to tell Gilgamesh to fuck off. The guy has such a fucking narrow lens.

This is why this thread exists
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Boudica
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Like I want to say, "Gilgamesh, you're a fucking idiot."

But I won't, because I'm showing restraint or something.
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Boudica
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Gilg is pretty obviously looking for a way to talk himself out of voting for me. 3-1 so far, I guess.
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Boudica
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This jury is a lot harder to read than I expected.

I think I'm doing okay here. Theo is as well. If it's a push, I think I win, so that's the objective.
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Boudica
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I think I'm getting a little bit sassy with Gilgamesh but I also kind of feel I need to here to highlight broadly that the points he's making are bad.

I don't have his vote, probably, because he doesn't respect the game I played. He wanted to play for inevitability, and I played to smash inevitability. He literally just can't understand that playing from behind is a thing that you're allowed to do and that it can still be a "valid strategy" or whatever.
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Boudica
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Wonder if I'll get any other questions lol.
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Sappho
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Are you going to post one last video confessional when your speech is done for the road?
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Boudica
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Probably. After speeches are due I'll do one.
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Boudica
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Okay so Harald is voting for me. That's good to hear.
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