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R.I.P. neildarkstar. Haven will miss you dearly.
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DiD Round V Chat
Topic Started: Jan 11 2017, 01:17 PM (2,656 Views)
Serethil
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Et'Ada
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Hmmm. Knights weren't paladins - so resto might not be a logical thing. Knights.... think heavy plate armor, two-handed weapon, serious concentration on KILL IT FIRST. And - no magic, not even healing - just.... armor for mitigation, and BIG weapon skills. Knights were the epitome of "the best defense is a good offense."

If you want to do paladins, that's something else again. And - well - this is Skyrim, not the previous games. Things are VERY different in Skyrim. And not just the game....
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neildarkstar
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Overlord
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Callidus Thorn
Jan 11 2017, 09:40 PM
I don't like two handed for the knight. Firstly it makes restoration useless, since the need to unequip the weapon before casting, then re-equip it after makes healing in combat a wasted effort. Secondly both Oblivion and Morrowind gave the Knight block, and sword and shield is more or less a classic knightly setup. And thirdly, the combination of restoration, heavy armour, and block makes it hard to put down.

As for the Battlemage, it's blunt force trauma. Both conjuration and alteration put the Battlemage on a timer, either for the loss of bound weapon, conjured ally, or boosted defence. Destruction's mostly there as a ranged option. And it makes for a bigger contrast in style with the Spellsword.
Perhaps, but I think Oblivion allowed spells to be cast with weapon in hand didn't it? I could be wrong, it's been a while since I played that game. Anyway, the issue with two hand and restoration isn't really a new thing, because most players use restoration at some point, and two handed is an often desired weapon because of it's damage.

Personally, I most often visualize the knightly sword as being a Claymore, though I have no idea of the accuracy of that impression.

The most common solution is a hotkey for your two handed weapon and another for your restoration spell. The move most often, strike with the weapon (hoping for a stagger), step back and double punch your healing hotkey to dual cast fast healing, heal as much as you can, then hit your hotkey to re-equip your weapon. It actually doesn't take that long.

A lot of players who use restoration simply only heal just after combat because even with a one-handed weapon, you can't strike while casting heal. Anyway, normally it would be merely a matter of personal choice. If classes are being set that makes it a bit more sticky as far as satisfying everyone.
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Serethil
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Et'Ada
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A lot of "knightly" swords were hand-and-a-half - the claymore and it's variants. Knights were protectors. Very good with their weapon, and very well-protected with plate armor.

When we were in Germany, we went to various of the museums. In one of them there was the armor worn by one of the local princes (about 1650 IIRC). It was pretty beat up, truthfully. Like he'd worn it in a LOT of action.... That prince was.... SHORT. About 5' 4".... And his sword - mounted in the case next to his armor - was at least an inch taller than husband, so about 6' 5".

And this "little prince" swung that two-hander from a horse - the saddle of which he could not mount without the help of two strapping footmen.

Jaw-dropping. And extremely interesting.
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Kane
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Need more light armor builds. All that heavy armor really weighs you down.
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Serethil
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Et'Ada
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Well.... that's all too true. Heavy armor is a build for knight (and paladin, and in some cases cleric) - and it's problematic in this sort of competition.

So, you need to mitigate the detrimentals for those who want to run a knight. Think of some stuff that would make the downside a bonus?
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glargg
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Jarl
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Serethil
Jan 11 2017, 10:53 PM
A lot of "knightly" swords were hand-and-a-half - the claymore and it's variants. Knights were protectors. Very good with their weapon, and very well-protected with plate armor.

When we were in Germany, we went to various of the museums. In one of them there was the armor worn by one of the local princes (about 1650 IIRC). It was pretty beat up, truthfully. Like he'd worn it in a LOT of action.... That prince was.... SHORT. About 5' 4".... And his sword - mounted in the case next to his armor - was at least an inch taller than husband, so about 6' 5".

And this "little prince" swung that two-hander from a horse - the saddle of which he could not mount without the help of two strapping footmen.

Jaw-dropping. And extremely interesting.
A sword that long would be a Dopplehänder. They're a Renaissance weapon, not really a knight thing. They were mostly used by foot soldiers for attacking pike squares. If it's that long, and belonged to a nobleman, it has to be a ceremonial sword.
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Areial
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Et'Ada
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Light armor... ( Oblivion classes)

Barbarian: Armorer ( smith )Athletics, Blade, Block, Blunt, Hand-to-Hand, Light Armor

Rogue: Alchemy, Athletics, Blade, Block, Illusion, Light Armor, Mercantile ( speech?)

Archer: Armorer, Blade, Blunt, Hand-to-Hand, Light Armor, Marksman,Sneak

Monk: Security, Sneak, Acrobatics, Marksman, Alteration, Hand-to-Hand, Athletics

Nightblade: Acrobatics, Alteration, Athletics, Blade, Destruction, Light Armor, Restoration

Spellsword: Major: Block, Restoration, Long Blade, Destruction, Alteration
Minor skills: Blunt Weapon, Enchant, Alchemy, Medium Armor, Axe

I think the biggest problem with some of the builds is that they don't have craft's in them, because you could buy those thing's that you needed in Oblivion.. need armor tempered.. smith does it for you...enchant and item... scrolls, staff's...etc.



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Callidus Thorn
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Thane
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Serethil
Jan 11 2017, 10:08 PM
Hmmm. Knights weren't paladins - so resto might not be a logical thing. Knights.... think heavy plate armor, two-handed weapon, serious concentration on KILL IT FIRST. And - no magic, not even healing - just.... armor for mitigation, and BIG weapon skills. Knights were the epitome of "the best defense is a good offense."

If you want to do paladins, that's something else again. And - well - this is Skyrim, not the previous games. Things are VERY different in Skyrim. And not just the game....
Both Oblivion and Morrowind presented the Knight as a fighter with a touch of magic(illusion and restoration, respectively). What you're describing is more in line with the Warrior class from those games; a pure fighter in Oblivion, and a fighter with marksman in Morrowind. But I see from the underlined that such an argument holds no weight.

Perhaps you'd like to borrow Skyrim's NPC Classes? Though you won't find a Knight there.

I made a suggestion. I have explained that suggestion. If you don't like it, don't use it, it's not like we're talking about a finalised class list here.

Problem solved.
Edited by Callidus Thorn, Jan 12 2017, 04:49 AM.
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Sakiri
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Jarl
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I'd go through some of the old classes and make adjustments. They moved stuff around in Skyrim, notably I think most of mysticism went to Alteration, security is lockpicking, speech/mercantile.

You'd have to pick thematic crafts. Alchemist, smithing or enchanting.
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neildarkstar
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Callidus Thorn
Jan 12 2017, 04:28 AM
Serethil
Jan 11 2017, 10:08 PM
Hmmm. Knights weren't paladins - so resto might not be a logical thing. Knights.... think heavy plate armor, two-handed weapon, serious concentration on KILL IT FIRST. And - no magic, not even healing - just.... armor for mitigation, and BIG weapon skills. Knights were the epitome of "the best defense is a good offense."

If you want to do paladins, that's something else again. And - well - this is Skyrim, not the previous games. Things are VERY different in Skyrim. And not just the game....
Both Oblivion and Morrowind presented the Knight as a fighter with a touch of magic(illusion and restoration, respectively). What you're describing is more in line with the Warrior class from those games; a pure fighter in Oblivion, and a fighter with marksman in Morrowind. But I see from the underlined that such an argument holds no weight.

Perhaps you'd like to borrow Skyrim's NPC Classes? Though you won't find a Knight there.

I made a suggestion. I have explained that suggestion. If you don't like it, don't use it, it's not like we're talking about a finalised class list here.

Problem solved.
Heh, don't take offense, but the problem is NOT solved... You have no idea how very quickly suggestions can become facts of life in these competitions, and unless the ones you don't like are opposed you're going to be stuck with them by default.

The issue here is not a case where "if you don't like whatever, don't use it" can be applied because it becomes a guideline. Meaning if your suggestions are implemented, anybody who wants to play a knight will have to follow your suggestion like it or not.

The entire purpose of a thread like this one is to provide an arena where such things can be sorted out to the satisfaction of the majority of players.
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Areial
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Et'Ada
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Unfortunately Neil is right....

It is just the way it works... majority win's even if the majority is one.. and no one else apposes the suggestion.
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Serethil
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Et'Ada
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And since I don't "play", obviously I should keep my nose out of it.
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Areial
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Et'Ada
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Nah... this is a community.. and everyone's opinion is welcome! Even silly little Black Birds.. ;)
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Kane
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Serethil
Jan 12 2017, 10:35 AM
And since I don't "play", obviously I should keep my nose out of it.
I see no harm in offering opinions to help the cause. :)
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neildarkstar
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Just as an illustration for my point on using a Two-Handed weapon and Restoration, here's a little one minute video with an example.
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Rick
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Jarl
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Neil.....nice technique in your shortie,

But I have to wonder how practical that is in your typical very dark draugr infested tomb passages where backing up means getting stuck...or dead ended...with the dead...until you are...dead!

Presumably your tactic changes there?
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neildarkstar
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Of course you have to be very careful where you heal up. You have to be very sure of your surroundings, and sometimes a hot-keyed potion is the best or even the only option. However, I don't see that it'd be very much better with a one-handed weapon either.

You have to lose either your weapon or your shield while casting heal (and the fastest heal is still a dual cast) so you can neither block nor strike when actively using the best healing. I don't know about you, but I still back away while healing even WITH a one-hand weapon equipped.

Once in a while I can manage to get a left-hand heal to work while striking with the right hand, but it's not dependable. I'd hate to bet my life on it working...
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glargg
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Jarl
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neildarkstar
Jan 12 2017, 01:56 PM

Once in a while I can manage to get a left-hand heal to work while striking with the right hand, but it's not dependable. I'd hate to bet my life on it working...
Yeah, I don't see any difference between switching from one-handed or two-handed to quick-heal. If you hotkey both the healing spell and the thing you're re-equipping, it's just a step-back and a couple of button-mashes either way.
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Sakiri
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Jarl
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Knight tends to equate paladin in most RPGs I've played. Holy warriors. Vigilant of Stendarr but in heavy armor.

Don't forget restoration isn't just healing. Turn undead and the old drain attribute (iirc) were in there.
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Sah
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please lets not do random skill draw for the next round ..........as much as this Thief round is good, has to build a mage type build, to play the thieves quest line, if we are to be spersicfic about rounds like warrior /archer /mage ext .....they should reflect that build and not just be about the points of the theme.

random skills are great but we do have to come up with more better titles for the games and not just put everything into one category.

also why is there no a page on Bethesda about our rounds and scores, heck no one has no idea this round is happening, this one is posting her scores on Bethesda too, the thing is we do want to attract NEW players ?
Edited by Sah, Jan 12 2017, 06:22 PM.
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