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R.I.P. neildarkstar. Haven will miss you dearly.
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DiD Round V Chat
Topic Started: Jan 11 2017, 01:17 PM (2,651 Views)
neildarkstar
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Sakiri
Jan 17 2017, 09:06 AM
neildarkstar
Jan 15 2017, 11:39 PM
Serethil
Jan 15 2017, 11:34 PM
That's an interesting statement. "Viability, would change or be vastly different based on the difficulty mods make. If you play them on the base vanilla game they're all viable."

So.... maybe the whole premise should shift to playing only the base vanilla game.

Now - admittedly I don't play (eh, doesn't seem like fun to me, sorry). But - really.... coming up with - and + modifiers for mods.... That seems like.... um. Not sure about a comparison that won't piss everyone off.

Seriously. Bram's point has merit. EVERY "class" is viable in the base (vanilla) game. So - that should be the optimal starting point?
Problem is that we've been there and done that.

Besides, the viability of characters even in vanilla depends to a great extent on the difficulty setting. Stealth characters have a very hard time in vanilla on a setting of Master or Legendary, for instance, and a knight or paladin type without crafting would be in a world of hurt on the same settings.
Stealth characters aren't spotted more easily on higher difficulty... All that does is up box damage/HP and reduce your damage.

Dying on Legendary was always unrelated to sneak :(
I wasn't trying to say that stealth characters are detected any more easily on higher difficulties. What I meant was that characters that are not combat oriented (meaning they use up perks on things like Sneak and Pickpocket instead of Smithing and combat skills) tend to be easily killed by opponents that do triple or double damage. :)

If they have any armor it is usually uncrafted and light so they tend to have a harder time when forced to fight... as often happens when the door is blocked or they are caught by surprise. Or when they decide to try to escape jail or otherwise fight the guards and people whose pockets they were picking.

There is a reason why it is often foolish to try to pick the pocket of the Bandit Chief before trying to collect the bounty... ;)
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Kane
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Yes, but some people prefer realistic combat, rather than damage sponges. I'd much rather play a game where there's and even chance that I could die at any second, but so could my enemy.

If they can knock you down in 3 hits, but it takes you 10 do the same, that's ridiculous to me, and not an enjoyable game.
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neildarkstar
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You know, I killed a mud crab yesterday on Master. I had to hit it four times with an arrow (from a smithed Orcish bow) that was doing triple damage because I was sneaking... Just sayin'... :)

EDIT: Just for clarity, the character had an archery skill of I think 45 with three of the base perks and Eagle Eye. I can think of no good reason to want to play Legendary under those circumstances.
Edited by neildarkstar, Jan 18 2017, 12:22 PM.
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Rick
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Neil.....Legendary is meant to be smithed.
My big response was ninja'd and now resides on the end of the previous page!

But in essance....it only takes you that long if you have not bothered to smith up you weapon (as well as armour).

Adella on level 3 Legendary had to shoot a bull crab about a dozen times backing up as it closed in. But she only had a fine imperial bow and steel arrows...that's why!
I assure you by level 25 with an exquisite+ glass bow and archery apparal, any mud crab is insta kill in Legendary. It dies just drawring from the quiver ;)
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Areial
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Actually that look's like a more balanced game... instead of one that's nerfed..

If I wanted to play Dark Souls, I would... We each have fun in our own way..

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Areial
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Rick
Jan 18 2017, 12:34 PM
Neil.....Legendary is meant to be smithed.
My big response was ninja'd and now resides on the end of the previous page!

But in essance....it only takes you that long if you have not bothered to smith up you weapon (as well as armour).

Adella on level 3 Legendary had to shoot a bull crab about a dozen times backing up as it closed in. But she only had a fine imperial bow and steel arrows...that's why!
I assure you by level 25 with an exquisite+ glass bow and archery apparal, any mud crab is insta kill in Legendary. It dies just drawring from the quiver ;)
:lmao: lvl 25...to insta-kill a bull mud crab? vanilla? daaaaumn.... 'nother reason I give Legendary a skip...

<snicker> I can not wait til they get Immersive Creatures on console... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


:kiss: :wub: U.....Rick
Edited by Areial, Jan 18 2017, 12:43 PM.
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neildarkstar
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Rick
Jan 18 2017, 12:34 PM
Neil.....Legendary is meant to be smithed.
My big response was ninja'd and now resides on the end of the previous page!

But in essance....it only takes you that long if you have not bothered to smith up you weapon (as well as armour).

Adella on level 3 Legendary had to shoot a bull crab about a dozen times backing up as it closed in. But she only had a fine imperial bow and steel arrows...that's why!
I assure you by level 25 with an exquisite+ glass bow and archery apparal, any mud crab is insta kill in Legendary. It dies just drawring from the quiver ;)
I did read your "big response" on the previous page. It just didn't change my own response much.

I think you kinda said it all in your first sentence in this post:
Quote:
 
Neil.....Legendary is meant to be smithed.


Here's the thing. I like to roleplay my characters... that means not just their circumstances, and how they arrived at those circumstances, but their skills and profession as well. In medieval times, smiths were highly valued. If one had skill as a smith, one did not need to become a thief, or a mercenary, or go seeking treasure.

Thus, my thief is not a smith nor an enchanter... Oh, perhaps sharpen a sword or tweak a bow to "fine", since it's necessary, recharge an enchanted weapon, but he/she certainly wouldn't have any perks in either skill. Besides, the object for a thief is not to get hit in the first place.

The same is essentially true for my warrior (other than not getting hit), who is proficient with the USE of weapons and armor, and can perhaps do some emergency field repair or tweaking, but cannot create new weapons or armor. That's what the Quartermaster is for...

This was the big advantage from a role playing perspective in previous titles... You could pay someone to do it for you.

If Legendary has to be smithed, then it is just not conducive to role playing.

To take a look at your statement regarding high level character and equiptment... It occurs to me that after all is said and done, you have created a version of Legendary that is on more difficult than Adept. Which kinda negates the reason for playing Legendary to start with.

I Legendary with your improved armor and weapons really so much more challenging than my Master with unimproved or slightly improved weapons and armor?

Just answer one question for me... How many smiths are actually out and involved in combat in the game, why are they in combat, and what armor do they wear?
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Areial
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Here's a thing that I think need's to be thought of... When Rick talk's Legendary, it's "Vanilla".. because so long on the 360 mean's that's all their was. Neil.. you and I are used to mod's that make the game harder.. so when we say "Adept" or "Master"...these are not "vanilla"..

I think one of the reason's that Legendary make's no sense to me, is because of the "damage sponge" that NPC's are...and how "glass cannon" the PC is... until the point where AR for the PC is almost OP...along with weapon stat's.

I can add a toughness to my NPC's...add a better AI.. and unlevel them ( which I don't do often)... make the mob's bigger... etc.. but Legendary (whose the stat's are unbalanced to begin with) makes no sense, I might as well play a vanilla game, instead of adding mods.

Rick you can do that now... and you did.. and gripped about how unleveled the bandit's were.. was that on Legendary? or did you try on lower difficulties? because with the many of the "those type" mods, they give the bandit's ( enemies) better stat's.. better armor perks, weapon perks...Health, stamina etc...... think about that one...
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Sakiri
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Rick, I play primarily glass cannons.

I want one shot.

There's nothing tactical about sitting in the shadows, not moving, undetected, dumping 100 arrows in a bandit.

There *is* something tactical about surviving after getting spotted by that cheif with a 2 hander.
Edited by Sakiri, Jan 18 2017, 02:11 PM.
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Poncho
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Might I suggest a Nightblade class? Essentially a magical spy/assassin which would play well with the way the dragonborn is expected to operate for the civil war
Sneak, Illusion, Destruction, 1Handed, Alteration/Light Armour

Gives ranged and close combat options, with quiet casting all spells are silent and illusion seems to me like it would fit because why should a squishy mage get his hands dirty when he can get other people to do it for him? Destruction in this case could be swapped out for Archery and possible addition of Alchemy?

Not sure if i'll participate in the next round yet...will have to see what i'm up to
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glargg
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I've never done the CW quest line, so it might be an interesting one to try. Maybe I'll play as a Thalmor agent, infiltrating one side or the other. :)

A question comes to mind...

Since we are now allowing mods into competition, what about alternate starts? For example, LAL allows Altmer to start as actual Thalmor agents.
Edited by glargg, Jan 19 2017, 12:44 AM.
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Areial
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hmmm That would definetly have to be hashed over.. as many of the start's come with homes.. and weapons.. or the ability to change stat's...

I think a pole... with sub questions about house starts, camping.. patron in bar, left for dead.. vanilla..

Personally, IDK... I think that could cause issues.
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Serethil
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Well, Skyrim Unbound doesn't come with houses or horses. You just choose a start from various "vanilla" areas. Of course you can give yourself a lot of gold and the best weapons and armor - but that would have to be figured out somehow.
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neildarkstar
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When I come out of Helgen and sell of the stuff I grabbed on the way through, I usually have about 500 or so gold (I think a little more if I sell off the novice hood and robes) so that amount could be replaced. I always sell off the legion armor too...
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Areial
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Their is a fair amount of "perks" to the Vanilla start.. and those are what really need's to be looked at, verses an alternate start.

* loot & gold
*Bed & storage ( If one follows Ralof)
*Free Ingots ( not stolen if one follows Hadvar)

*free "house , horse & carriage"...with ability to upgrade
*less gold, but more stuff.. including enchanted items ( I usually get at least a ring of something)


Biggest perk.. not having to run through Helgen for the 2 millionth time.... Biggest negative, not everyone is going to get the same starting items/gold..etc
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Kane
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Why not just have everyone start as a new recruit to whatever side they choose?
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Areial
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That works also... different start... same for everyone... as long as no one is on 360 or PS3
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Sakiri
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I don't run an alternative start or Skyrim Unbound.
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Areial
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Well... I did say it would have to be discussed... and even though you are on PC.. their has to be a way to make it fair for all.. who don't use Alternate start mods...
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neildarkstar
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I'm on PC, and I don't use alternate starts either. I did once... and because of other mods I had, the places the alt start mod put me brought on instant death. Not good for DiD...
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