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Round VIII chatter ( Dwemer Scholar ); DiD round talk..
Topic Started: May 7 2017, 06:33 PM (813 Views)
neildarkstar
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Brambleberry
May 13 2017, 02:24 PM
I get what yer sayin', but

I think by continuing our change up from one comp to the next we don't "burn out" on a specific type of competition.

Thief round was nothing like Warrior and the Mage round, well that was a challenge for most. To date the Nekkid Nord run with 3 skills only has probably been the most deadly challenge for everyone because there's always going to be a point where the House wins!

The up and coming competition provides us with doable tasks that even if we reach the higher levels we can plan for success. Additionally having a theme based competition allows for that role play so many of us enjoy.

Lastly, the nice thing is if someone is "burned out" on comps they can sit them out until the want to jump back in.


Heh, I'm not talking about burnout, Bram. I'm talking about a gaming version of an arms race, kinda. I'm also not talking about having issues with theme-based competitions, because I have no such issues. What I am talking about is a case of escalating difficulty just getting out of the kiddie pool...

When I was regularly posting Dead is Dead characters, I was in the habit of not posting characters until they reached at least level 20, becasue anything else wasn't really a viable character. It was a character that never even made it out of the starting gate, in a manner of speaking.

So, out of all the characters in the Nekkid Nord competition, how many got to level 20? How many got to level 15? I think most were killed off by about level 12, with a few making it to 13 or 14 and maybe one or two who got beyond that.

So, here's what happens. You start the competition with high spirits, right? You just might make it to the end, you never know, and lightning does strike occasionally. Unfortunately, you get killed at level 10.

Start over with a zombie, and about the same results after you've redone the whole chargen thing, the Helgen tutorial, played with the bandits around Riverwood, for the second time in just a few days. then, you get killed off, and have to redo all of that again, or try to escape to a different area where you're still fighting the same sorts of creatures... until you die at about the same point you did the first three time. Half of the competition time is now gone, and for all that you've spent a lot of hours playing, you never got into the more interesting or higher level opponents and dungeons, because you're always dead just about the time things are promising to get more interesting.

Why is this happening? Well, I'm glad you asked. :) It's happening because the competition rules won't allow you to survive long enough to get to anything interesting. I mean, with all of the limitations what are odds that you will survive Dustman's Cairn or the Skinner in the silver Hand dungeon that follows if you're only allowed half a character? The most fun I had in that whole competition was in Ironbind Barrow, I believe.

I'd finally reached something interesting.

This competition may work out better, but I have serious doubts. That's because once again, we only get to use about half a character. Think about it... If you go for option 2, and decide to take Archery cuz you don't want to go nose to nose with automatons, then you almost have to have sneak. Conjuration will make it better, but if you get Bound Bow, you can forget about sneaking the second you summon it. Unless you have Illusion. So now, in order to have one fully functional skill (archery) you have used four of your skill slots. What are you going to do if you find yourself in melee?

It'd be good to take one hand, but then you really kind of need block right? Dueal weild is good, but against a Steam Centurion? One hit and you are history. But... if you take Block, you have to take an armor skill, either light or heavy.

glargg calls that "making sacrifices" but I call it making half of a character because you lack the tools to do much more than that. ... and with half a character, what kind of odds can you get that you are going to survive long enough to get to something interesting?

I'm not terribly unhappy with this situation, it's okay for now, but... I can remember when we played these competitions with virtually NO restrictions except mods, and even then there were genreally only two players who made it to the end. Rick and Sah. They don't play anymore I think because they got sick of winning... I dunno, could be wrong.

In any case, it wasn't long before folks wanted to do away with crafts, because they blamed crafts for OP chars that couldn't lose. Then some folks thought (perhaps with some justification) that the restrictions were aimed at them.

So now they're aimed at everybody in the name of "making it challenging", but I honestly can't remember anybody outside of Rick or Sah who ever made it above level 35 in ANY competition, restrictions or no. Just saying, perhaps we should be less interested in making challenging, and a little more interested in making it interesting. the themes are a step in that direction, but it takes more than difficulties to make an interesting life, eh?



Areial
May 13 2017, 02:35 PM
LoL... I'll have ta find a tiger 1st...

I hear ya... and I know their is a fine line between challenge and impossibility. ..

To me the challenge is on seeing how far one gets... these are competitions... someone is supposed to win.. now the fact is most of us playing atm just don't take it that seriously. ..which is ok too.

For the Nekkid Nord, I suggested 3, 4 or 5 skills... none to be armor... 3 was the majority chosen... personally 4 would have been perfect for me...5 like a bonus.

For this round... 5 with 2 perked crafts or the choice of 6 skills usable. ..5 perked ( only one crafted perked) should be a tactical challenge. .. if you over craft or over train... those higher difficulties are going to eat one up fast... but getting through some of the Dwemer ruins at lower lvls IS possible...

《Sigh 》 I gotta go clock in for work...Blah!


For me, it's the same... unfortunately, I've done just about everything in every quest line that CAN be done up to about level 20 a thousand times or more... and I've done it with Deadly Dragons, ASIS, Enemies Enhanced, and half a dozen other mods that make the game challenging. Now, I'm kinda into doing things that require higher levels than a mere 20, let alone 15... Valthume, Ironbind, or someplace with boss fights that rock the world with fiery explosions and the sound of high level draugr shouts all blended together into a roaring melee that screams deadly danger. Even if I only live it for five minutes... but if I can't stay alive long enough to get there, it just ain't gonna happen. :)



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Brambleberry
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Well it sounds like we've had a pendulum swing too far in one direction and may be need to bring it back to center.
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Areial
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Neil, I Do as it happend have an idea for a themed round... "your" style, I wanted to give it a bit of time... as its not the most challenging of ideas, more fun.. and a great big treasure hunt style... as we had one not long ago, I figured to wait a bit before bringing it up.. towards the end of this round I will ask and see what everyone thinks about it.

The major problem is it involves mods... cause without them you are doing same old same ole...for the same ole things.
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neildarkstar
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Heh, I don't know if I actually have a "style" to call my own... I just want to have fun, and the odd thing is that more restrictions do not seem to equal more fun, eh?


EDIT:
Gosh, my first test character did a mediocre job, didn't die or anything like that, but... it became obvious that she was NOT going to viable at higher levels.
I've revamped the skill set to:
Option 2

Archery
Block
Enchanting (perked)
Light Armor (not perked)
One-Handed
Sneak

Now to go see how it works. (though it seems a bit mundane for me :) )
Edited by neildarkstar, May 13 2017, 05:53 PM.
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Areial
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I have a style...but generally it won't work for compititions.
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glargg
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It seems to me that we don't have to enter all of the competitions. Just do the ones that suit you, or that feel right.

Neil, I'm not sure the "higher level" thing fits with a scaled-difficulty competition, where it's to our benefit to do things early as much as we can. My approach is definitely going to be to level as slowly as possible. In other words, find ways of clearing dungeons that involve using as few skills as possible, so as to keep the dungeon difficulty down.
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Lapuaboy
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I have two builds that I'm testing. One is the more "accessible" being a Archery, Sneak, Light Armor with Smithing and Enchanting. The other is one that may raise eyebrows but I think will work at higher levels but is slower developing. Armored mage with Conjuration, Destruction, Light Armor with Smithing and Enchanting. I always run with a follower, and will outfit Jenassa or Rayya with the best gear I can.

I have grand plans for both...the trick of course is staying alive as the plans come together ;)


My mage tester is currently lvl 18 and in Mzuft. She poked her nose into Nchuand and Sightless Pit a couple levels ago and said hell no :scared:


Edit: Crap. I re-read the rules on p.1...and I missed the follower only after hit expert level (30+) so I've borked my own testing. :bang:
My plans for Dwemer domination need a rethink :unsure:
Edited by Lapuaboy, May 13 2017, 08:45 PM.
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neildarkstar
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glargg
May 13 2017, 06:43 PM
It seems to me that we don't have to enter all of the competitions. Just do the ones that suit you, or that feel right.

Neil, I'm not sure the "higher level" thing fits with a scaled-difficulty competition, where it's to our benefit to do things early as much as we can. My approach is definitely going to be to level as slowly as possible. In other words, find ways of clearing dungeons that involve using as few skills as possible, so as to keep the dungeon difficulty down.
I'm certain you're right if you're in it to win the competition points-wise, but if you're in it mainly for fun, that changes the whole complexion you see. The priorities are different.

It has to do with my mindset. When I go to play poker or blackjack, I rarely have fun while playing. That's because it involves real money, and that's serious business.

In these competitions, I'll bet if I won I wouldn't even get one of those cheap-assed Hawaiian dancing girls that turn up now and then in Fallout new Vegas... Now how seriously can take a prize that doesn't exist, eh? :D

So, if I'm in it for fun (and I am) then I'm looking for cheap thrills, adrenaline rushes, and an inspired awe of the powers and abilities of both my character and her opponents. I don't want that particularly to happen at low levels, because it's so very mediocre, don't you see...

If anybody was crazy enough to actually let me create a competition, there would no doubt be some kind of base that says the competitoinis for characters level 25 and above only. Meaning you'd have to play by competition rules long enough to get to level 25 just for the privilege of entering that character in the competition!

Hey! That's a GREAT idea...
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Areial
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:meh: make it fun enough and I might try...
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glargg
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It is a great idea. :)

For me, there are two kinds of fun here. There's the playing, and there's the participation (more than competition.) I can do the playing fun on any terms, whether it be the "rules" of our competitions, or in my free-form, but often very skill-limited personal game-playing.

For these rounds, at least half the fun is knowing that there's a bunch of you guys doing the same thing. It's like a shared experience, except that we do it separately. And then we come here and have the fun of sharing our experiences with each other. Competition, commiseration, companionship.

And, for all you've said above, I've gotta notice that Tubasha came out of it, and I've gotta think that you had a pretty good time developing that character. :)
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neildarkstar
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You are absolutely right on that score, Mr glargg... I enjoyed Tubasha more than any character in recent memory (though the "Squishy mage is a close second). The problem however is that the same restrictions that made her prevented her from actually achieving greatness... and as much as I loved building her, the final end in Ustengrav actually hurt.
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glargg
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I know how that feels. When I lost Lolly Gaggin a while back, it was a real hurt. Death only matters to the living.
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Rick
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I have been watching....and listening

I wasn't going to jump in, but I hear my name through the void and thus summoned....I am here.

Spirit father neil of the competition tribe speaks with much wisdom and astute clarity (yeah, jus' can't get outta tribal story mode yet ;) )

Seriously, neil has it right and voices the reasons why Sah and I kinda fell from the comp ladder. Not the "tired of winning" bit, (I'm thinking that was a neil gag ;) ) Sah and I have spoken about this in times past.

Sah and I did well, because we had in neil's parlance whole characters... where we could build what we knew we needed to survive using our style at the chosen difficulty. Trying to get by with one hand tied behind your back may be an amusing change...but very (very) quickly becomes an unrewarding struggle. Death follows quickly....for the char....and the enticement.

Now....I have played with limited skill sets and limited time (noting that it wastes considerable competition time under hard conditions just to build our chars up sufficiently before we can join in with gusto), so it is not that I refuse to play anything other than my particular way. However, as neil points out....spending (a lot) of time readying your char only to be knocked back to zero before you can get to the rapid growth and combat ready point is quite soul destroying.

Sah and I always looked like we kinda breezed through effortlessly with our super high crafted battle tanks.....and folk get quietly annoyed, saying in not so many words...well of course you do well with an unstoppable war machine, but you're not so clever if we take two thirds of your crafting away or half your combat skills eh!
Well duh! It's pretty obvious that a lame horse ain't gonna get a ribbon, but what is often overlooked is the difficulty of even getting our tanks to be fighting fit.
Staying alive with crap gear whilst it gradually improves is the real art.....not the breezing through a dungeon with armour cap kevlar and total magic invulnerability. What you see there is just the end result of a lot of hard work, the payoff and reward.

Back to Neil's point proper....hamstringing builds to the point where just surviving is an exhausting effort, kills the fun!

The early comp rounds had a special magic, because although you might be limited to the type of build....or the questline to be enacted....you always knew that with effort your build could be made good enough to do well with a full compliment of the required skills, and therefore, death by level ten was not a foregone conclusion.

Now as we all appreciate, Trace has put a huge....huge....amount of personal time and effort to make these rounds varied and attractive.....and She deserves all the adulation we can muster. Tracy :hugs:
I am supporting neil's point because I believe he has hit the neil on the head and at this point, finding ways to make the comps more challenging is not the way to make them more attractive. Especially if challenging just means having half a build that's good for nothing! A new ethos is needed.

I have been thinking (always dangerous) about a mage version of Adella's Way....Sah mentioned it (so it must be good...Lol) using only mage skills...no potion use tho' and no followers, atronachs, etc on Legendary DiD, like Adella's Way, but as a lone mage with no physical weapons. Still to attempt the eight destinies! Just a fledgling idea atm! Maybe an idea starter for a comp round? :)

Edited by Rick, May 13 2017, 10:57 PM.
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Areial
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Thank You Rick.. I do try...

When I come up with an idea..it's not always fully formed.. I put out my idea.. and let people run with it.. This time I put out "this is what I envisioned" now it didn't get errrr translated from my brain to peoples perception, the way I meant it to.. cause truthfully what I meant... was..:

5 or 6 Skills PLUS 1 craft perk-able and one not.. The reason for all the skills is the LvL scaling and the toughness of Dwemer Dungeons... but you can see, where I didn't make myself completely clear and where it went astray... ( my fault)

I have fully viable characters that use that formula... Right through to Master... Legendary, well No,

But I understand both side's of the argument.. and I try to meet everyone in the middle.. I try not to work in a vacuum, try to come up with idea's from what people say they want... I don't always hit the mark..

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Rafer
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The Dwemer Scholar round has obviously gotten a lot of us excited to play. The theme excellent. Given the theme is the draw, perhaps we should just vote on having any skill restrictions at all. With the level scaling, choosing or not choosing skills will have a significant impact. Limited skillset characaters will likely never see Legendary, perhaps not even Master. No craft characters will spend more time adventuring. However, players that want to use a large skillset and play on the higher levels and difficulties can do so.
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Poncho
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Just started up a test run character for this next round and already goofed...activated Genesis for the increased spawns while still in the LaL cell, so when we got to Helgen half the assembled ran off to kill bandits that spawned in :/

Resulted in me playing with console commands to fly around killing the bandits off, resurrecting the headsman, disabling the walls in his way (he managed to get inside the burning inn before it was generated as burning) and then spend 10 minutes following him walking the long way round the town back to his designated spot. Executions wouldn't continue until he had. I'll have to remember to wait on that one for the main run....also despite being on Novice starting out it seems Immersive creatures is spawning wolves with over 100 health...so minor surprise when they took 3/4 hits each to kill.

Current plan is a Dunmer with perks in heavy armour, one handed, alteration, smithing and enchanting.
I'll be picking up J'Zargo at some stage to use as artillery and a Dwemer Dog follower from Mzinchleft whenever I roll round to that point
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neildarkstar
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My new test char is coming along nicely, but there's one thing that is a major pain in the... uhh... assassination. That is that even though I don't want to wear armor, I have to have light armor as a skill in order to use a shield. That meant in the end neither alchemy nor restoration...
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glargg
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neildarkstar
May 14 2017, 11:39 AM
My new test char is coming along nicely, but there's one thing that is a major pain in the... uhh... assassination. That is that even though I don't want to wear armor, I have to have light armor as a skill in order to use a shield. That meant in the end neither alchemy nor restoration...
I've got an opposite-ish problem. I've got an Altmer who wants to wear heavy armor, but also wants Alteration (my modded dungeons are too dark without light or night-vision.) That's a redundancy I just can't buy, but she looks really good in that armor. :)

I think I'm going to save this Altmer for another occasion, and go with a character who will listen to reason. :D
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Areial
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So far my Female Altmer is...dying more often than not...my Male Altmer is doing much better, but smithing is part of his list... not her's, though she did make up some cloths to wear ( they have an armor rating, but for the competition it will be different "cloth" cloths)

Slightly different list of skills... but I'm working on them to decide exactly what it is I want to use.
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neildarkstar
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Speaking of Smithing, a I've a query, a question, a poser if you will... Suppose you don't take smithing, can you still temper weapons and armor?
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