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R.I.P. neildarkstar. Haven will miss you dearly.
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Running The Gauntlet; This is neildarkstar's challenge competition.
Topic Started: Jun 22 2017, 06:27 PM (1,445 Views)
Brambleberry
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Jarl
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Adding to what Areial said it all depends on "how" you play the game.

This trivializes any role play aspect of the game and in truth for most it is the role play engaging one's imagination that captivates us in the open sandbox worlds. ;)
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Areial
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Et'Ada
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Another thing.. nothing marginalizes your personal goals for a specific type play through.

If I wanted to do a Alteration, Illusion, conjuration.. bad guy... the fact that someone else could to it on Legendary and I play on Adept.. is trivial to me.. "so what... your daddy's gonna beat up my daddy?" It's my challenge.. how "I" play.. I don't smith to Legendary or Craft to Master Alchemist.. so..what if the other person does,...that's them and their game.

People have run the Boston marathon with severe disabilities, that doesn't mean it would negate someone elses goal to run it.. that is their challenge, not someone elses.. I could train along with them, but my challenge would not be exactly the same.
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neildarkstar
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Well, I was rather in a funk to start with, having been up for a little over 24 hours, so my thoughts have indeed been altered with a little rest. However, I do have a few thoughts on this .

First, imagine if you will Skyrim as a vehicle... in particular a vehicle designed for space exploration. We currently have a variety of "booster" rockets or stages that we employ in reaching the great beyond.

For Rick, that initial booster is smithing and the other crafts. For me it's probably illusion spells or stealth in general. For glargg it's what, "slow and steady" and "proceed with caution"? Anyway, each of us uses this "booster" or "first stage" to create a viable character that can withstand the rigors presented later, and most of us know that, like a real booster rocket, our booster will only take us so far before it needs to be dropped and replaced with a different "second stage". Still with me?

That first stage represents a value to us personally that we we perceive we get from our first stage and the style of play that fuels it. That is the part where Areial's concepts as posted previously would apply. the thing is that no matter how you look at it, that value has to be, in some sense, justified.

Now, let's view that werewolf thing as a "booster stage". Can you do everything as a werewolf? I really kinda doubt it. for one thing there is the issue with changing forms in front of others, so let's say you are doing the thieves guild quest with Mercer... What does Mercer do if he sees you change? Has anybody ever tried chaning to werewolf form in the middle of the Cistern to check on the reaction from the rest of the Thieves Guild?

Imagine walking into Saarthal with Tolfdir and changing forms in that first room full of draugr. Could you fight all those draugr in human form at level 1 with 0 skills?

But let's move on from there a bit. Let's suppose that you have diligently applied yourself to your booster stage, that you have made considerable progress in most of the quest lines as a werewolf, and you are still very low level, even if not still level 1.

What else can be said about your character at this point? Well, you are probably very wealthy. You haven't had to buy any spells or any smithing resources, you have no doubt gotten a number of the enchanted weapons, you have had time to gather large amounts spell ingredients, prospect for ore, and built a base of wealth for that moment you know is coming.

I mean of course, the moment when you have to let go of the first stage and ignite the second stage. There you are sitting on immense amounts of resources, and for you it's like starting the game with the ability to build your crafting and training at any speed you choose because you can afford it.

For non-competitive people, that would likely not make much difference, but for competitive people and competitions? Hmmm... I wonder what values our personal "boosters" would get relative to that?

Then there is another thought that I find interesting. There are 704 steps that must be climbed to walk up to the top of the Eiffel Tower. You have just climbed those stairs, and for the first third of the way, you enjoyed the trip. You admired the changing view, the feeling of physical prowess that comes from meeting a physical challenge and you are glad you have chosen to do this even if you don't survive.

As you reach the top, your heart is beating like a hammer preparing to burst from your chest, your legs cannot decide whether they are made of rubber or water, and as you step on the top landing your first thought is NOT to check out the view, but rather to see if there is a place to sit down before you die of cardiac arrest. In the back of your mind is the trip down that surely must follow eventually...

As you drop your sweaty, smelly, exhausted body onto a bench, you look over and suddenly realize that for 20 cents you could have just taken the elevator...
;)

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Areial
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Et'Ada
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Well sure... but were is the challenge in that?

~TGM... Sere plays this way, because for her exploring and her people are the most important things. .

Thing about werewolf... unless a mod changes it... you can't pick up doodlie squat... ie the higher you go on the werewolf tree, the longer you stay a werewolf, unless you "wait" or toggle it off...then without a mod, you can't change back for Xx amount of time.

It's not the be all end all of unarmored and unarmed. .. but it can help, you just seriously have to plan.


But I'm glad you got some rest.
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neildarkstar
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I've never played a werewolf all that often, but when I did... I'd clean out a cave or a fort or whatever, eat all the hearts I could, then go take a nap and when I wake up I go around as a normal person and pick up everything I can lay my hands on. Then, I'm usually overencumbered, but I'd just wait around until I could change back to the wolf, and head out for the nearest vendor carrying all that stuff.

After everybody in the place is dead, it doesn't matter that you can't change for a while, because you can just wait or sleep the time away.

'Course you gotta be outta sight when you change back, but you can get close enough that it's not a case of trudging along for hours... Anyway, I always got MUCH more loot out out of places when playing a werewolf than when playing normal because I could carry so much more..
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neildarkstar
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Just to move things along, here's a short video (2:40) that I mentioned yesterday. The events in it took me completely by surprise, though I guess I should have been expecting it.



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Areial
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Persistent little bogger huh?
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Rick
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After Dark
Jun 25 2017, 08:47 AM
Snip.....
The only skill you really need is Block and it's only to get you through Dustman's Cairn and the little quests between the first stages of the Companions questline.
This means you can stay forever at level 1 and this makes the Werewolf so overpowered, even on Legendary.
Sorry, but I could not stay silent.....

My view is that anyone clever enough to realise that you can avoid taking level ups and end up with OP skills on a starting level char is also clever enough to realise that such an exploit is well outside the spirit of the exercise.

Now they could rightly say...well, it is my personal challenge so I can take it any way I choose. That is true.
However, if they want to be a part of the "I did challenge X" club then they must (should) declare their departure from the recognised procedure.

A while ago, in a regular Haven comp we did have a guy who did exactly that. He must have thought he was really outsmarting everyone by not levelling up, but eventually he was taken to task and stomped off in a huff. All because the rules at the time, did not specifically forbid that kind of exploit....but who would think you even needed to write that in. It is like turning up to a bicycle race with a Harley....then trying to claim the rules did not say no motorbikes....well duh! But for the benefit of those clever souls, the Haven comp rules are now clear on that matter.....and so is Adella's Trial.

These challenges are about testing one's mettle...not seeing what can be gotten away with.

Anyway...thanks AD for raising the flag. This issue would have slipped through.
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After Dark
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I think you missundestood the part about staying at level one. If you watch the video, you will see that my character didn't reach level 2.
I know what you're saying and i couldn't play like that on a normal character because i need those perk points. You know that i center my build around a weapon, usually One-handed and i need the perks there, but Neil banned weapons and armors, so there's no skill to rise at all. The only skill that was still usable was Block due to the usage of a torch and bashing with a torch rises Block really slow.

This whole situation started with a simple idea i presented more like a joke. Then Neil said that you have to survive two really difficult dungeons to get your Beast Form power. First i thought he was right and there's no way you can survive there without a proper build, but then is just said f*k it, let's give it a go and see what happens. I didn't want to spend too much time on this and the result was what i call a speed run. I put everything aside and kept only one goal.
As i went through Dustman's Cairn, everything looked so easy compared with other runs. You'll see me checking the difficulty setting several times because of that.

On a side note, i have to stop accepting any challenge is thrown at me...
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Poncho
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If it's the occasion I am thinking of, that might have been my fault for bringing it up since he was sitting in a fire trap and absorbing the magicka/healing what didn't absorb to force up restoration....which I could have seen as "outsmarting the rules" had he not also sat on the level ups, which is why I mentioned it.

So far as the werewolfing everything though, one can argue that going around after the fact to load up on the loot then selling it, sneaking until in a position to transform initially and picking locks will push you up a few levels at least...further increases if one builds their own home, recharges passive staves and (very slight/slow) increases to alchemy munching on ingredients. Potentially also pickpocket, if you want to go that way. The purpose of the challenge is to "do as much as possible" after all, so not doing these things would be counter to that concept.

Out of 18 skills that's 7 that can be raised passively, plus block if you carry a torch around to use for the purpose. Methinks that is a few levels to be gained, even with all combat being done in a big and hairy form.
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neildarkstar
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Yeah, I think there is a difference between not using skills that cause leveling, and sitting on levels rather than leveling up. In normal play, you are going to gain levels due to using non-combat skills.

It becomes more clear if we think back a little and remember that we had to give Locksmithing and Speech as freebies in skill-restricted competitions because there was no way to really prevent leveling those skills up. Oddly enough it is possible to be unseen without sneaking, so one might be able to avoid leveling the sneak skill, but it would be difficult.
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Rick
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I agree, if you are not levelling because your skills are not rising, there is nothing untoward about that...
You are always going to stop levelling at some point anyway, as the used skills reach their maxima (unless you then legendary skills back to 15....but that is another story).
I was talking specifically about letting level ups stack up, untaken, to forcibly keep the char at level one (or any low level) while skills are raised as much as possible.

Right....that's my bit said so :bolt:
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After Dark
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neildarkstar
Jun 26 2017, 02:53 AM
Yeah, I think there is a difference between not using skills that cause leveling, and sitting on levels rather than leveling up. In normal play, you are going to gain levels due to using non-combat skills.

It becomes more clear if we think back a little and remember that we had to give Locksmithing and Speech as freebies in skill-restricted competitions because there was no way to really prevent leveling those skills up. Oddly enough it is possible to be unseen without sneaking, so one might be able to avoid leveling the sneak skill, but it would be difficult.
First, you need a reason to open every chest and trading and for me it was to support my build (my main skills). I need to buy or find those Fortify One-handed enchantments and i need a house to store tones of ores, pelts, equipment i might use later, ingredients and so on, but with your rule banning the use of armor, weapons and smithing you also removed the need to trade because you don't need money to buy all those expensive enchanted equipment and you don't need money for a house either. You only need money for renting a room or a carriage and the occasional situation where you have to pay a small sum to complete a quest (The Book of Love II comes to mind).

There's no point to open every locked chest you come across since you can't use any item you find within.

None of my character use Sneak as a primary skill and never will. Then only situation i use sneak is to pick a lock in a populated area and that doesn't grant enough sneak experience to level up the skill.
I know a lot about staying hidden without sneaking. I've done it many times and that wasn't because i tried to keep sneak at level 1. Like Farkas said, i "...leave those tactics to the milkdrinkers."
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neildarkstar
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Sure, you don't need as much that's true. for me though, the need to try to find the scrolls and items that CAN be used is reason enough to open every chest. I also need money to buy scrolls with, and it's nice to be able to afford to buy the potions that can be used as well.

Then there is the basis of the competition to consider as well... Building a house is no just a luxury for your convenience, it's also part of "How far can you get?" I'd say building all of the Hearthfire homes would be an accomplishment, eh?

Anyway, to each his own... You've got it entirely figured out apparently, so if you want to actually participate in the challenge, list your accomplishments and show us how far you get. If not, then congratulations on your solution and have fun with whatever you do, eh? :)
Edited by neildarkstar, Jun 26 2017, 09:19 AM.
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After Dark
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You see, i never saw wealth as a goal or an accomplishment.
During Adella's challenge i bought a Necklace of Extreme Wielding pushing my Skyforge Steel Sword to 120 points and i use that necklace to take revenge on the Briarheart from Kolkeggr Mine.
The fact that i had the septims to buy that necklace wasn't and accomplish itself, but the fact that i killed that Briarheart with only 15% magic resistance (Agent of Mara), was.

As i told you before, this was a test run, and i was simply posting my findings. I didn't plan anything beforehand. If you watch the video again, you can see that, before i get to Witerun, i take a little detour to the closest Giant Camp and open an Expert locked chest. I took all the valuable items in there and sold some to Belathor and it felt like i'm just wasting time because there's no point in having thousands of septims if there's nothing to spend them on.

Anyway, now that you set a goal (getting rich, owning property), i have no problem playing the way i usually play and get those skills up (Lockpicking and Speech). Just don't tell me i have to sneak around and steal thing because that's totally against my character.

If you're still interested, here's the second video. Unfortunately i had to stop there because of the AI glitch.

Eventually my character leveled up (mostly due to speech).
Level 2 Stats:
Time spent so far: ~ 5 hours
Level: 2
Skills:
Spoiler: click to toggle


Gold: 2945

If there's anything else you see that doesn't fit this challenge, let me know.
Edited by After Dark, Jun 27 2017, 09:11 AM.
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neildarkstar
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Funny, I never realized there was an interior cell on that little island... "Mara's Eye"? I've rarely ever gone that way I guess. Usually after fighting The Skinner I leave that Silver Hand keep and go the other way to the bandit camp that's more or less just across from Anga's Mill toward Windhelm.

BTW, did you have a video that shows your battle with the Skinner? I'd be interested in seeing that. :)

I generally don't have an hour or two to watch videos, so I usually just browse through them, having a look at ten minute intervals or so, but I presume I miss a lot of content that way.

I guess I really wan't really very clear when I said "See how far you can get"... In my own mind, I could see it as a much more complicated thing. "See how developed your character can be"? Perhaps. What it means to me is completing as much of the various questlines as you can, while finishing as much of the main Quest and DLC as you can. As the character developes, becoming a wealthy homeowner or land holder (aka hearthfire homes) is a natural progression, like becoming thane of all the holds.

The bottom line is really about how much you can actually do in all areas of the game.

For a little update from my character, I'm now on S'Virre of Nine, am at level ten, have cleared the area around Riverwood (including Embershard), cleared Bleak Falls Barrow, slain MIrmulnir (I thought it really cool that a blow from S'Virre finished him off), am currently at High Hrothgar. Oh yeah, I joined the Companions, but haven't done Dustman's yet.
Edited by neildarkstar, Jun 27 2017, 10:05 AM.
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After Dark
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It wasn't anything special, like all the mighty werewolf hunters inside that fort, he kinda s**t his pants when i enter the room.
https://youtu.be/7uBn8wjQ2xg?t=8066

Even Treva's Watch, one of the hardest dungeons in the game is made trivial by werewolf howl.
Edited by After Dark, Jun 27 2017, 10:30 AM.
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Areial
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Nifty... some of the movement's are... :X but that's a problem with 3rd person in tight places. I never really thought about doing that quest as a werewolf..
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neildarkstar
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Well.. That's kind of disappointing. I've never done that quest as a wolf, because I CAN'T change into the wolf... I didn't realize that it becomes available part way through. Or after your first change, did you go do other things first somehow?

After killing the Skinner, I usually change and go around feeding off o f all the bodies, but I don't get the howl (eh, "Totem of Terror" perk until sometime in the bandit camp I go to afterward.

I'm kind of thinking I'm going to severely restrict/limit my personal use of the werewolf because there's bragging rights to spending 2 hours killing a single death overlord, but the werewolf makes it all look far too easy.

Oh, BTW, I would never demand that you sneak around, it really doesn't matter to me how you go about things. Sneaking is my thing, and I truly enjoy it. There's nothing like the feeling of passing entirely through a dungeon, taking everything in it, and never being seen by the inhabitants...
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After Dark
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The reason i was able to use the beast form, is because i rest for the night there. I usually do stuff like that. Like when i go to the wandering souls and the night comes, i usually kill the bandit outside Swidler's Den and use his bedroll to sleep for the night. It's much better than going to an Inn because i earned the right to rest there.

You don't need the perk to use the howl. The perk only rises the level of the enemy affected by it.
Undeads are immune to fear (obviously you can't get the Master of the Mind perk), so a dungeon filled with draugr still provides a good challenge. Also you can't eat their hearts to regain health.

Now that you brought this up, i think i'll do BFB and start the main quest, after i finish the Companions questline...
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