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R.I.P. neildarkstar. Haven will miss you dearly.
| Death With Consequences (NOT DiD); A system of game play with consequences for death | |
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| Topic Started: Aug 10 2017, 10:37 PM (942 Views) | |
| neildarkstar | Aug 15 2017, 07:23 AM Post #41 |
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Overlord
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Uhmmm, you've got it right pretty much, except that (at least for me) no save is made at the "home base" and if she's killed again, she'll usually go back to the last place she was reloaded at previously ( I don't create a save until she is back where she dropped her gear, except for autosaves generatted by sleeping or going up a level. That's what makes it so butt-clenching), and of course minus over a thousand points... Also, there is always a chance that your gear won't be there when you get back in any case... I don't know if it's the same in Skyrim or not, but in Fallout, NPCs will pick up good weapons they find laying on the ground. Or even in workshops, apparently. ...and if the cell reloads, as College Square did to Holly, you'll get nothing back. Ever.
Edited by neildarkstar, Aug 15 2017, 07:27 AM.
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| Kane | Aug 15 2017, 09:16 AM Post #42 |
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Overlord
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This concept could definitely be considered for future competitions. Maybe alternate between DiD and DwC rounds. |
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| neildarkstar | Aug 15 2017, 09:40 AM Post #43 |
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Overlord
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One thing I forgot to mention to Rick up above is, a very good reason NOT to save at "Home Base" is that the room was full of feral ghouls at the time. Loading a save in there would probably have meant instant death the second it finished loading, eh? :D |
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| Rick | Aug 15 2017, 09:44 AM Post #44 |
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Jarl
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So you don't save at home base, ok. So when she dies and is auto reloaded somewhere....you drop everything there. Run back to home base Nekkid style, then run back to the reloaded save point where all her gear is (hopefully) still waiting. Then you pick it all up, do a new save and carry on. So....unless I'm missing something......if she dies and her dropped equipment is not tampered with by passing npcs.....she gets all her gear back intact. The only consequence of death then being lost points score! Hmmm, well, I envision DwC being a bit more painful.....like definitely losing your hard earned stuff. For me there has to be a steep 'Consequence' otherwise essentially you just have reloader play. I suppose losing points in a competition IS a penalty, but doesn't compare with the ultimate loss alternative. |
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| neildarkstar | Aug 15 2017, 10:06 AM Post #45 |
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Overlord
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I don't quite think you're seeing the entire picture... the consequence is trying to stay alive to get to Home Base and back out with no weapons or armor, and that's where the excitement comes in. You're thinking of a consequence purely in terms of a penalty (which, by the way the points are whether you get equiptment back or not) but you're not considering the effects. If you are in a competition, for the heck of it, let's say to complete the Minuteman quest line as a member of the Brotherhood of Steel. You're going to get points for doing various things in the competition, right? Collect magazines, or bobbleheads, or recover lost tech or number of BoS missions completed, whatever. Generally there are quite a few different ways to rack up points, but the points given for any one thing are relatively small. It takes a lot of them to add up to a score that might allow you to win the competition, right? So, you get killed, that costs you a thousand points. Then while trying to complete the Side Bet (in order to try to keep your gear) you get killed again because you have no weapons or armor. That costs you another 1250 points. the thing is, how many times can you do that without putting yourself out of the competition you are in? When you have a massive death debit, and no chance of winning the competition, I'd say that's a consequence, wouldn't you? ...and you're stuck with that debit until you restart a new character, which is exactly the same thing you would have been forced to do in DiD... the main difference is that you had a chance to make it work without the restart. |
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| Areial | Aug 15 2017, 11:51 AM Post #46 |
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Et'Ada
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Rick.. what exactly are you loosing playing DiD ? During Adella's Trials, time.. and that is absolutely it. I'm sure it's a huge disapointment to have wasted 100+ hours, but their are no other consequences... none.. time is it. So in a competition points and the amount of time lost getting those points, those are the consequences.. As an aside, I am sure Adella is pissed,, both at feeling her likeness die and having to do the whole tedious thing over again... but those are more on the line of personal consequences.. |
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| Rick | Aug 15 2017, 12:01 PM Post #47 |
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Jarl
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So basically it's death by accountant....you are going to lose the competition on points, by getting killed during the Nekkid style runs. All the good quest progress stays with you, but you lose anyway. Well, I suppose its another way of sorting winners from losers, but it really is only for use as a competition mechanic, fair enough. Personally, I prefer the idea of losing what you have and having to fight and scavenge to rebuild your inventory, like getting mugged and left for dead, but your raised skills aid your chances of bouncing back whilst the raised enemy levels make that harder. Good luck with the Beta version ;) ......... Trace, Funny you should say that. Years ago I expounded in my wisdom, "Reloader play punishes the character; Dead is Dead play punishes the player". You say 'All I lose is time' Trace, time is our most precious resource Why'd you think I try to rush through? Because the freedom to do what we do the way we do it is under constant threat of change over time..... But in anycase you realise you are comparing apples and oranges right. Adella's Trial is not a competition per se and has no score points and come to that no single winner above any other. Edited by Rick, Aug 15 2017, 12:29 PM.
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| neildarkstar | Aug 15 2017, 12:32 PM Post #48 |
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Overlord
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But... you're not going to lose the competition by points if you just DON'T DIE, eh? :) That's the key, and in that, it's just like DiD. You don't have to start from scratch and do all the same things you just got done doing yet another time, after having done those same things a thousand times before... That's what's wrong with DiD... I've got well over 6000 hours in Skyrim, and probably 4500 hours of that has been spent going therough Helgen, going to Riverwood, talking to Balgruuf, clearing Bleak Falls Barrow, fighting Mirmulnir, and so on through all of the things we habitually do even when we try to make it somehow "different this time". In the end it's never different because every major questline has been done to death, and it's mainly because DiD forces that "from scratch restart." Even with that, some of us (no names here :) ) try to make it different by setting all skills to 0, and/or forbidding the use of healing potions, and any number of other things, but it still comes out the same in the end. Bleak FAlls Barrow is still there, still the same, Mirmulnir will still attack the watchtower, the graybeards will scream with frustration when they realize the dragonborn is back yet again to try their patience. That's why they summon him to Hgih Hrothgar. The hope that this time when you try "Whirlwind Sprint" you will run right off the edge of the Mountain. Setting up a death with consequences of any sort will change things, because you will be forced into higher levels as long as you continue to play... and remember, that coveted Darwin Award is waiting just for you, and it would look great on your mantle if only the postman didn't keep eating it before delivery, eh? ;) The bottom line for me is simple. I either have to change things up, or go to different games, because I'm bored to tears with the DiD restarts. Oh, and I don't see this really as a "competition only" mechanic. I mean, I've been having more fun playing using this system than I've had in years, and I have no competition or even other players. The points will give me a means to judge for myself whether I get that Darwin Award or not. A measuring stick if you will. I've a couple of videos that I'd love to show you, to give an idea of what it's like, but I'm afraid it's not to be. It's that "Naked" thing, you know? You never really see a frontal view, but I'm concerned about how it would go over both here and at youtube. Alas, the world is so full of prudes and censors that now we find we must censor ourselves to preserve ourselves from their wrath. Ahh, but I'm tired now. Maybe you'll bring me some Jet later, and the sight will paint a clearer picture... Besides, if I'm not mistaken, you have a job to do! ;) |
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| Rick | Aug 15 2017, 01:00 PM Post #49 |
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Jarl
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I really like the early game in Skyrim....it is why I don't mind a restart too much....yes the questy bits won't change, but where you choose to go and what you do can be very different. For the last, idk maybe forty or fifty, restarts I have taken to get Adella wiping out the overhang bandit camp by Whiterun then going on to do half of Halted Stream Camp. That was a change for us as was leaving Bleakfalls until much later, which spawns a change of Draugr. Yes....I like it under level 10....where basic bandits can be killed efficiently with an unimproved steel mace. It doesn't start to get fun again until level 30..... I have no idea how many times I have met Balgruuf for the first time....it must be hundreds at least. |
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| Areial | Aug 15 2017, 01:20 PM Post #50 |
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Et'Ada
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Well, then.. IF you ever get through Adella's Trial's and start participating in DiD competition's again, All you will be loosing is time... And yes, time IS a most precious thing.. to precious to do the exact same thing, the exact same way, with the exact same results. |
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| Kane | Aug 15 2017, 01:22 PM Post #51 |
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Overlord
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Time is just a concept, and always the first thing to fade. |
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| Brambleberry | Aug 15 2017, 01:47 PM Post #52 |
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Jarl
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I prefer this way to spend time. ;) |
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| Lapuaboy | Aug 15 2017, 01:51 PM Post #53 |
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Thane
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In a DiD competition, I'm good for say 2 or 3 restarts and then I'm really pondering whether I want to do this! Yeah, I do enjoy the crafting and grinding, to a certain point, and then restarts become "Groundhog Day" for me and very tedious. Let's take the current FO4 competition I'm taking part in. I'm on my 3rd start, and when Kristy dies this time I'll join Neil in alpha testing his DwC concept. I still want to play and share stories and screenines, but no way am I scrapping and rebuilding my character and settlements again. So, with the standard DiD format, I tap out and watch from the sidelines. Maybe more important are people who don't even attempt the competitions now, that just might with a DwC format. |
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| Kane | Aug 15 2017, 01:57 PM Post #54 |
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Overlord
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Yeah, I get bored after the first one or two deaths. I prefer my characters to live for a while, so that I'm not always redoing Helgen > Riverwood > Whiterun. |
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| neildarkstar | Aug 15 2017, 01:57 PM Post #55 |
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Overlord
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If you do decide to join me in testing this out, be sure to give us updates, so we can see if there are tweaks we need to work on. Also, if you try something a little different, let us know how it works out. :) |
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| Kane | Aug 15 2017, 01:59 PM Post #56 |
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Overlord
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I'll let you know if I decided to give it a shot, too. Mayhaps I will when I roll my next character. |
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| glargg | Aug 15 2017, 02:30 PM Post #57 |
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Jarl
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Interesting back-and-forth here. I'm finding myself leaning towards Rick's side, at least where consequences are concerned. Most of our game-play is NOT in competition; the point-loss consequence is thus no consequence at all, other than that injects a (possibly multi-) detour adventure to "base" into the process. I realize that the detour adds an extra "adrenaline boost" for now, but eventually it's going to be just another "mandatory side-quest" to be gotten through. I don't know that I'd do the forced swim, though; it would be enough to simply throw everything into the nearest respawning barrel, and "forget" that it's there. :) On the repeated restarts, I'm definitely in the "not bored" camp. I've done Bleak Falls Barrow hundreds of times, but because my character is doing it, it's always the "first time." Well, sort of, anyway. ;) I've done Bleak Falls Barrow naked, armed only with the two default starting spells. I've done it at level 41. And just about anything in between. In any case, I find that with my non-competition, non-DiD characters, I will happily reload on death a couple of times, but beyond that, the "deaths" start adding up for me, and I quickly start thinking of the character as "no longer really living." In other words, it's the possibility of Death that gives my characters Life. :shrug: |
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| Rick | Aug 15 2017, 04:20 PM Post #58 |
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Jarl
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Hee hee, yeah that works glargg....until as you walk away you think "Aw, I really do want that necklace of boredom immunity....perhaps it would be ok if I juuuuust sneak back sideways and take it back quick" Self discipline I suppose.....but I decided not to chance testing my resolve. By dropping gear out to deep sea....you will never find it... it's gone for good. If you think you might even be tempted to try.....do the drop at night. But hell.....I find it difficult to locate Reyda's skeleton....in shallow water...and I know where to look! ;) |
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| Poncho | Aug 15 2017, 04:30 PM Post #59 |
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Noble
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Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so - Douglas Adams/Ford Prefect
Could not one argue that the "winner" would be the first one to successfully complete the Trial? |
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| Rick | Aug 15 2017, 05:07 PM Post #60 |
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Jarl
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Well, no.....I wouldn't want to see the experience go down that route. Adella's Trial is more a personal achievement for those intrepid adventurers who manage to endure it to the end. Rather than a divisive 'winner and losers' scenario.....I prefer to see all successful candidates as part of a little club. The "I survived Adella's Way" club. It IS a very gruelling hard core trial, and everyone who gets through it deserves equal recognition in our book. :) |
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