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Should dropping a difficulty upon death be mandatory?
Yes 11 (91.7%)
No 1 (8.3%)
Total Votes: 12
Rule Discussion
Topic Started: Jun 17 2016, 02:05 PM (1,360 Views)
Kane
Overlord
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General Rules


1. Dead is dead. No reloading except for game glitches or crashes.

2. Starting point is from no later than the first tower (with Ulfric and company,)

3. No map-based fast travel. Boats and carriages are allowed.

4. No mods that provide a player advantage, including storage or house mods.

5. No exploits. See list. Ask if unsure. In the event of disagreement, a majority of the players enrolled in the round will decide.

6. You must level up upon attaining a level, at the first safe opportunity. You need not assign perks immediately.

7. If restarting after character death, you must drop down at least one level, if possible.

8. Restarted characters (Zombies, etc.) do not reset the competition's time limit. Only your highest scoring character counts.

9. Difficulty limits, time limits, follower limits, skill limits, and scoring will vary by round. These special rules will be posted prior to the start of the round.

10. Be honorable. Don't cheat. We do this for fun.




Rule 5 Addendum:

Forbidden exploits:

Fortify/Restoration looping

Follower/Trainer exploit

Training against helpless or hamless opponents (training block against low-level opponents, sniping at self-healing trolls from a safe location, sneaking behind NPCs just to raise Sneak, etc.)

Spamming of skills in no-risk situations, just to raise them (Muffle, Clairvoyance, etc.)



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Areial
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Et'Ada
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Kane
Jun 17 2016, 02:05 PM
General Rules


- No Fortify/Restoration looping.
- No forbidden mods (That give players advantage)
- No reloading previous saves, even if character did not die (unless a glitch occurred)
- No map-based fast travel.
- Once in Helgen Keep, DiD rules apply (You must go through the cart cutscene!).
- No follower/trainer exploit.
- You may restart your game (right after you leave Helgen Keep) or create another character after you die. (It goes like: Human, Zombie, Wraith, Ghost, Shade, Whisp [Every time you die, you can go down one difficulty level if you want, the lowest being adept].)
- No mod that add storage (that includes mod houses).
- You must ALWAYS level up (meaning that, once you receive a level, you must take it right away).
- The player highest score is the only one that counts for the round, meaning someone that has become a Wraith may win over a Human, if their score is high enough.
- You may not 'skill spam'! (Creating 1000 iron daggers in one go, for example) (You can create 100 daggers per in-game week, if you wish)
- Difficulty must be higher then Adept.
Kane the difficulty at Adept was only for this particular round. Glargg regularly plays at apprentice or novice.

Add in about the quest followers must be taken directly to and from their quest ( worded better)...that's a general rule also.
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Kane
Overlord
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Areial
Jun 29 2016, 09:35 PM
Kane
Jun 17 2016, 02:05 PM
General Rules


- No Fortify/Restoration looping.
- No forbidden mods (That give players advantage)
- No reloading previous saves, even if character did not die (unless a glitch occurred)
- No map-based fast travel.
- Once in Helgen Keep, DiD rules apply (You must go through the cart cutscene!).
- No follower/trainer exploit.
- You may restart your game (right after you leave Helgen Keep) or create another character after you die. (It goes like: Human, Zombie, Wraith, Ghost, Shade, Whisp [Every time you die, you can go down one difficulty level if you want, the lowest being adept].)
- No mod that add storage (that includes mod houses).
- You must ALWAYS level up (meaning that, once you receive a level, you must take it right away).
- The player highest score is the only one that counts for the round, meaning someone that has become a Wraith may win over a Human, if their score is high enough.
- You may not 'skill spam'! (Creating 1000 iron daggers in one go, for example) (You can create 100 daggers per in-game week, if you wish)
- Difficulty must be higher then Adept.
Kane the difficulty at Adept was only for this particular round. Glargg regularly plays at apprentice or novice.

Add in about the quest followers must be taken directly to and from their quest ( worded better)...that's a general rule also.
Added!
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Rick
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Jarl
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Kane,

Competition Rules.........I will assume you are open to suggestion / correction / critique !

There are a few issues I think with the rules as shown...although there are getting much better, more concise and clear. I hope to aid that goal with this...

One...basic....number the rules for easy reference later on.

Two...Line 6....."You must go through the cart cut scene" the Contessa will never do that. Her progenitor save is in the doorway immediately after the chopping block! This rule disadvantages those of us ( now and in future) with enduring characters, like Adella, reword it to say something like "Upon the initial vanilla start at level one, DiD rules commence once inside the Helgen Keep" or similar!

Three...line 11....ok...a bone of contention....I did tell Gornevan in his Mr. BA guise that this was incorrect, but he preferred his version (for simplicity he said) and left it in. Frankly.....That was not within his gift, even as host......but he did it anyways.
What is wrong with it is that we ( the community) agreed that upon death the drop down by one catagory ( eg zombie to wraith) should be accompanied by a mandatory drop of one difficulty grade. We actually used this method in the previous round. The purpose was add a consequence for death...since it is DiD afterall. Allowing a player to retain their difficulty after death means that there is almost no penalty for dying multiple times, at low levels! The DiD ethos is all about consequence for getting your char killed!
So....either the rule should be corrected to what we all previously accepted...OR a fresh consensus of the community should be made. Either way, it should not be left as it is simply because one person took it upon themselves to change it (and yes it irked me, because that is not how we operate).

Four...Line 13. No mod that adds storage. Areial explained it is because mod houses with storage rooms often come with free crafting stations at no player effort. Fair enough, but the rule should be clear that it is not a storage issue ok. Change it to reflect the true problem..."no mods that add ready built crafting stations"

Five...Line 19. Oh dear...this is such a wishy washy loophole central I hardly know where to begin!
Look....banning skill spamming...maybe ok ( only maybe mind) but saying 100 iron dagger per game week begs the obvious questions....like how many dwarven bows then? Or what about jewellery? Why exactly 100? Why one week? What if I sleep 24 hours quickly 7 times in a row.....accruing my "new week" in two minutes?
This rule needs rethinking....tightening up and being made rational!
Plus I'm nit cinviced we ever had a trye cincendys in the whole spamming issue to begin with!!!

Remember Kane.....these rules are our 'Bible' they MUST be clear, and an accurate reflection of the community's majority wishes.

My 0.02
But I will warn you....if there are loopholes.....there will ALWAYS inevitably be some clever clogs who either knowingly or not...exploits them......
Assuring you of best intentions
R'ick
Edited by Rick, Jun 30 2016, 10:24 PM.
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Kane
Overlord
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Rick
Jun 30 2016, 10:20 PM
Kane,

Competition Rules.........I will assume you are open to suggestion / correction / critique !

There are a few issues I think with the rules as shown...although there are getting much better, more concise and clear. I hope to aid that goal with this...

One...basic....number the rules for easy reference later on.

Two...Line 6....."You must go through the cart cut scene" the Contessa will never do that. Her progenitor save is in the doorway immediately after the chopping block! This rule disadvantages those of us ( now and in future) with enduring characters, like Adella. (Not Sah, because she is built from a preset and manifests at the push of a button!) reword it to say something like "Upon the initial vanilla start at level one, DiD rules commence once inside the Helgen Keep" or similar!

Three...line 11....ok...a bone of contention....I did tell Gornevan in his Mr. BA guise that this was incorrect, but he preferred his version (for simplicity he said) and left it in. Frankly.....That was not within his gift, even as host......but he did it anyways.
What is wrong with it is that we ( the community) agreed that upon death the drop down by one catagory ( eg zombie to wraith) should be accompanied by a mandatory drop of one difficulty grade. We actually used this method in the previous round. The purpose was add a consequence for death...since it is DiD afterall. Allowing a player to retain their difficulty after death means that there is almost no penalty for dying multiple times, at low levels! The DiD ethos is all about consequence for getting your char killed!
So....either the rule should be corrected to what we all previously accepted...OR a fresh consensus of the community should be made. Either way, it should not be left as it is simply because one person took it upon themselves to change it (and yes it irked me, because that is not how we operate).

Four...Line 13. No mod that adds storage. Areial explained it is because mod houses with storage rooms often come with free crafting stations at no player effort. Fair enough, but the rule should be clear that it is not a storage issue ok. Change it to reflect the true problem..."no mods that add ready built crafting stations"

Five...Line 19. Oh dear...this is such a wishy washy loophole central I hardly know where to begin!
Look....banning skill spamming...maybe ok ( only maybe mind) but saying 100 iron dagger per game week begs the obvious questions....like how many dwarven bows then? Or what about jewellery? Why exactly 100? Why one week? What if I sleep 24 hours quickly 7 times in a row.....accruing my "new week" in two minutes?
This rule needs rethinking....tightening up and being made rational!
Plus I'm nit cinviced we ever had a trye cincendys in the whole spamming issue to begin with!!!

Remember Kane.....these rules are our 'Bible' they MUST be clear, and an accurate reflection of the community's majority wishes.

My 0.02
But I will warn you....if there are loopholes.....there will ALWAYS inevitably be some clever clogs who either knowingly or not...exploits them......
Assuring you of best intentions
R'ick
Feel free to make edits! With your GM status, you should be able to make changes to locked threads. ;)
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Rick
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Jarl
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Kane my friend, as tempting as it might be to wield "ULTIMATE POWA"

Unilateral "non agreed" changes is exactly what I was rallying against!

No. Minor technical edits (typos, grammer etc) ok, maybe....but a rule change must be handled sensitively with respect for all core community members......

If my ideas or corrections are rubbished by a majority....that is fine by me....really. But if accepted, then corrections should be made. Can't be fairer than that!
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Serethil
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Et'Ada
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There are times when a committee is necessary. This would seem to be one of them.

Those who play these DiD games should form said committee, and find a neutral space elsewhere to hammer out the bottom line of the "rules".

I think this forum setup doesn't provide a workable neutral space. Perhaps google docs? Really guys - you need a solid "A B C" basis....
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Rick
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Jarl
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Yes....but not just a committe, I think....a council.

Kane = Mayor of Haven

I like it :D

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glargg
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Jarl
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I thought I'd create this topic here. I see discussion in the Rules Topic, but, it being locked, only moderators can post there.

I tend to agree with Rick that it ought to be open to discussion, point for point.

Most of the rules I like, but I pretty much agree with Rick's points. The spamming thing is unclear (if we need it the rule at all), the reason for no storage/house mods is more complex than storage, and the drop-down on death should absolutely be mandatory.
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Areial
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Et'Ada
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Rick
Jun 30 2016, 11:05 PM
Yes....but not just a committe, I think....a council.

Kane = Mayor of Haven

I like it :D

Umm.. more than just those who can moderate... This IS a locked thread... need ta move it where everyone who plays DID can have their say with out feeling like an outsider.... Glargg started a thread... My opinion will be there.
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Areial
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Et'Ada
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General Rules


-1.No Fortify/Restoration looping.
-2.No forbidden mods (That give players advantage)
- 3.No reloading previous saves, even if character did not die (unless a glitch occurred)
-4. No map-based fast travel.
-5. Once in Helgen Keep, DiD rules apply (You must go through the cart cutscene!).
-6. No follower/trainer exploit.
- 7.You may restart your game (right after you leave Helgen Keep) or create another character after you die. (It goes like: Human, Zombie, Wraith, Ghost, Shade, Whisp [Every time you die, you can go down one difficulty level if you want, the lowest being adept].)
-8. No mod that add storage (that includes mod houses).
- 9.You must ALWAYS level up (meaning that, once you receive a level, you must take it right away).
-10. The player highest score is the only one that counts for the round, meaning someone that has become a Wraith may win over a Human, if their score is high enough.
- 11.You may not 'skill spam'! (Creating 1000 iron daggers in one go, for example) (You can create 100 daggers per in-game week, if you wish)
-12. Difficulty must always be Adept or higher


# 12 was a specific rule for that round

#8.. Rick this rule makes sense... I can "spawn" a safe storage container almost anywhere... I know their ARE safe storage in a lot of places, but it's different... Their is a mod ( I'd have to look for it as I wasn't interesting in it ) that allows you to put container's where ever your want... and link them.. SO I could spawn "safe storage" in every town and walk into it...unload every thing.. and go to another town with another container and pick everything up.


JMO, that most of us know what "spaming" verses "grinding" is... If a person has to ask " Is 100 bow''s the same as 100 daggers.. iron, glass, deadric...etc, then they are looking for way's to exploit.

Those of us used to playing by an "honor" code... are not going to look for way's to exploit...way's to get around the rules..ways to bend them... we are playing with honor in the spirit of our games.

I did mention before this last round that I thought the rules needed to be hashed out.. written better... I got very very little feed back... just a "that sounds fine".. most of what is written above is copied from the rules before or my "proposed" rules. Yes their IS a bit of leeway, but that is the host's choice.


Rick... did Adella go through the Cart scene? Cause unless you got a mod that allow's a start elsewhere...she did.
* cart cut scene.......open door to the Keep...save....play....play play... The rule is written more for PC, cause Character creation comes before...the Cart Scene... and you can choose to start anywhere..


Sorry if I sound a bit cranky... it's 1am and I have been up since 5 am...

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Brambleberry
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Jarl
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Thanks for starting this thread Glargg. I also agree with Rick; with some variations or maybe I mean fleshing out a slightly different take.

Regarding player houses, as with all things competition we operate on the honor system, so if someone wants to have a free house in their mod list do we trust them to NOT take advantage? It has been our practice to trust fellow competitors. Example for me are Cloaks of Skyrim. I don't ever turn the mod off because I like the way it puts cloaks on NPCs, but I never loot, sell or wear any cloaks during a competition; they are simply there for aesthetics.

Regarding spamming: this poor horse has been beat to death. Personally I look at what we're trying to accomplish in a limited amount of time and difficulty of play. For a Legendary player telling them to only make 100 daggers a week (just as an example) is an unfair burden from my point of view, because they MUST grind up certain skills just to survive the most normally innocuous mudcrab and skeever or they never make it very far and become fed up with the process. On the other hand if someone is playing on adept or lower making only 100 daggers I find it is also unfair because the player's skill/time may be such that they just can't wait a whole week to make another 100 daggers and still have FUN (our main goal) during the competition.

I would propose that if one, based on one's own "honor", feel that doing something (whatever that something is) constitutes an unfair advantage that one just won't do it (like me never touching a cloak). This approach provides a more easy going or perhaps a better term is fluid gaming experience because everyone has different difficulty setting, player skill and RNG monsters chasin' their ass!

So if one is going to play a conjurer I certainly wouldn't say only 10 conjures per day or a warrior, you can only block 20 times per day, etc, etc (yes I know that's getting silly :teehee: ), but it illustrates the point. Instead let us understand that a competition is DIFFERENT than normal play and because of that difference certain skills must be leveled up in an abby-normal way in order to survive.

*I think that's about 100 septims worth of blah, blah for Grits* :D
Edited by Brambleberry, Jul 8 2016, 01:33 PM.
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Rick
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Areial.....Locked!

Oh....right.....well, yes of course, it should be an open participation....I never intended otherwise.....
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Areial
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Bram... I do agree about the house, I like my mod houses... Even if they are free, I "pay" for them, ie I buy Breezehome never use it then use the mod home.. if it comes with a smithing area, I don't use it because breezehome doesn't have it.

But I stopped using them some time ago, because we had some new people take advantage of loop-holes in the rules.. rules the rest of us were playing by, albeit unwritten.

I think that is why we need good solid rules... not so much for those of us that have been playing for a while, but for those who are new to the game...new to DiD... we do play by slightly different rules than regular DiD play. #1 of which is the compressed time.
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Kane
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Beat me to it, glargg.

Arieal, I think (correct me if I'm wrong, Rick) that he keeps Adella's likeness saved at the keep entrance, so that he doesn't have to create her likeness every time, even though it does circumvent the cart scene.

(I'm going to clean up the rule thread.)

P.S. Didn't mean to steal your topic, glargg. When I merged the posts, it just kinda happened. :unsure:
Edited by Kane, Jul 1 2016, 07:55 AM.
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Rick
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Yes, thanks Glargg....I did not intend the discussion to be held in a locked zone of course.<br /><br />

Areial.......thank you for FURTHER clarifying the meaning of mod storage. Now it is clear that it is not just about crafting stations, but also storage containers being a common file. In which case.....understood and agreed without qualm. But hon, you see THAT perfectly illustates what I mean about "clarity" in the first place!<br /><br />

Crafting spamming limits.......well.....you say that even asking about whether a 100 Dwarven bows could be made instead of iron daggers is breaking the unwritten 'honour code'.........but I say to you.....that is PRECISELY the kind of loophole that could be exploited and the entire reason I raised it. <br />
Make it clear...or ban it...but don't leave it to some wishy washy "interpretation" of honour. <br /><br />

That is my answer to Bram also....Honour means different things to different people and the deeper you question it the more the concept unravels. <br />
Even knights of chivalric orders did not consistently agree on the finer points of "being honourable". In competition, not taking allowed advantages will ensure you lose, because someone else will.

Not everyone plays to win of course, but lets not forget the meaning of the word 'competition'.......it is not 'bumbling through' it is 'trying to win'.<br /><br />

I have to say also...frankly....that a mere 100 iron daggers is nothing in smithing point rise terms....its a skill of diminishing returns and by smithing skill 60 that hundred daggers will get you approx 3 smithing point rises!!! So its worth squat! I need to get my smithing to around 70 in 15 real hours or less....while doing everything else too of course!<br />
Even BUYING Dwarven ingots to make bows would be slow because smithes only hold a dozen or so at a time, and the Septims soon run out! Getting metals from dangerous ruins before having good armour is also very risky.
Bottom line.....raising smithing even by spamming is slow and difficult and putting a limit on it in competition timeframes makes it practically impossible.<br /><br />

I know some folk (Glargg :) ) will say if you choose a difficulty that requires high smithing then that is your own fault...tough! And we have been around that bouy many times it seems. But I say Legendary is there to be usable and Beth provided crafting options to make it viable. Surviving Legendary with good smithed armour is already hard enough imo.<br /><br />

Moving on......the cart cut scene thing. Well, Areial....YES of course Adella (and Ulda before her) had to go through the cut scene ONCE. However that was last time... Six months ago! And probably not again until October 28th hmmm! The rule IMPLIES even if not stated emphatically....that each competition run is started with your beloved being on that damn cart!!! REBUILDING Adella is.....how to explain.....unsavoury...almost like...necromancy. Frankenstienian in concept to me! I know Sah would understand this.<br /><br />

We have "Enduring Characters" (personae). I know that we as a DiD community accept the concept of a "progenitor save" ( Adella's is in the doorway after the chopping block which is as early as I can set it). But the rules should be clear and unambiguous certainly for the benefit of new blood eh!<br /><br />

I would have made this shorter if I had more time :lmao:
Edited by Rick, Jul 1 2016, 08:18 AM.
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Areial
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Et'Ada
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Kane
Jul 1 2016, 07:43 AM
Beat me to it, glargg.

Arieal, I think (correct me if I'm wrong, Rick) that he keeps Adella's likeness saved at the keep entrance, so that he doesn't have to create her likeness every time, even though it does circumvent the cart scene.

(I'm going to clean up the rule thread.)

P.S. Didn't mean to steal your topic, glargg. When I merged the posts, it just kinda happened. :unsure:
Yes..for the short answer... that is where the save is at... so it could technically go one way or the other... the cut scene was gone through.. once... but not every time.

Rick hitting both sides of the subject.

I could use Tsuri's likeness for every single competition, because of the way AS-LaL works I can save right after Character creation, plus with Racemenu I can "save" her Preset... so this mean's I don't have to "create" her likeness at every competition. And still run through the cart scene every time... because it is exactly opposite of console...

Which does the cut scene 1st...

So technically if one wants to get nit-pickey over rules... that IS a rule that is being circumvented. We have always put it on the "honor" code...

edit...out of time atm
Edited by Areial, Jul 1 2016, 08:16 AM.
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Rick
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Precisely.....but the rule should not be accepted as "Circumvented"
The rule should simply be Changed to make it right!


First we are saying...you gotta go throught the cut scene....then we are saying oh but its ok to not go through the cutscene if your on console and it does it in a different order. But imply your perma save has to be an unspecified "early on"

How can you expect a new blood to know all that?

I happen to believe that surviving the Keep is an important part of the DiD experience and is..or should be the same for all !


I propose to say that.....

ONE.......entering the keep with either Ralof or Hadvar is a mandatory condition at game start.

TWO.......A permanent (or Progenitor) save may be maintained at any point prior to that at player discretion.

So you do not need any reference to the troublesome 'cart cut scene' issue......

(Addendum...repeated for the technical....Adella is saved well before the "keep" actually....in the doorway you first enter as the meteor storm rages and she is stood near Ulfric and Ralof. You can't get very much earlier than that! After CC on console. I ALWAYS get to hear Ulfic barking "We need to move NOW" bless him. )
Edited by Rick, Jul 1 2016, 08:52 AM.
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Brambleberry
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I'm going to throw this little bitsy out there:

Part of what our goal in ground rules is to provide an equivalent experience for all players regardless of choice of difficulty, that is, as close as possible experiencing the "same" risks.

That said, what if the save that everyone used was after the cart scene just prior to the chopping block where you're giving glaring looks at the captain? :angry:

This would provide everyone with a consistent starting location without the drudgery of the cart scene AND it also means that everyone experiences the risks (death defying leaps, etc) of just getting into the keep with either Ralof or Hadvarr. We could modify that DiD rules apply once you're inside the tower with Ulfric and Ralof.

Even though for most, death at the start is rare these days, there is still the potential of the dragonborn's existence being cut short before (s)he ever finds out how kool he/she is. ;)

This is just an idea for peeps to mull over....maybe with some Argonian Wine. :cheers:
Edited by Brambleberry, Jul 1 2016, 08:58 AM.
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Rick
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Bram.....I do not see the difference between what you suggest and Adella's progenitor save point....shrug....they are literally seconds apart!

You suggest squeezing a save between right after the CC screen but before the chopping block. The part where the captain says he/she goes to the block.

But then you have to sit through the whole messy dialogue ridden cut scene and spiel, watching Alduin land on the tower etc etc. The only additional risk that Adella does not face is the almost zero chance of being killed by a falling meteor between running from the block into the open doorway. Even on Legendary in hundreds of restarts I have never had a character hit by a meteor before reaching that door!

I suggest making the save point inside that tower where Adella already does, because at least your opening moments on first load up will be into a safe place....even if you are rubbing shoulders with Ulfric :)

You/she still has to run up inside the tower with Ralof and do the jump to the inn. My other personal issue is that I do not have an earlier save than that. So I can't wind it back to where the Captain sends you to the block and as I said....who needs all the stuff before the meteor storm anyways! (unless you choose to make a new char naturally).

These are the reasons I chose that first doorway to make her progenitor save...looking out upon the raining meteors. It the earliest sensible save place imo :)
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