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R.I.P. neildarkstar. Haven will miss you dearly.
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Oh the Games we Play; DiD Competitions, mini-games, Fun runs
Topic Started: Jul 30 2016, 10:57 PM (3,265 Views)
glargg
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I like penalties. They keep you on your toes.
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neildarkstar
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Oh, man! I never even knew the Litany of Larceny existed. Other than the mug or whatever it is at Honningbrew, I've never had any of them that I know of...
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Serethil
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Most of them aren't real obvious. I mean, if you don't know about the map, it's not likely you'll detour into the office (while you're supposed to be following the mark) to pick it up....
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Kane
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Yeah, some of them can be a PITA to find, if you don't know to look for them. The Model Ship being the worst offender.
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neildarkstar
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Over on the officials, I was responding to a guy regarding competitions when it hit me that there is a perfect RL example of the type of competition I've been talking about putting together.

The Cannonball Express. There are some rules, to be sure but let's have a look at the basics we are concerned with and do a little comparison.

First is the vehicle. You have to buy a vehicle specifically for the run, it cannot cost more than $3,000.00 to buy.

From our point of view, we cover that part by purchasing the game, eh?

Second, you can then spend hundreds of thousands of dollars repairing, rebuilding, and modifying that vehicle if you so desire. There are no limitations on the body style, engine size and horsepower, power train, suspension, or fuel type.

From our point of view, that means the mods we normally use in our everyday games... or the mods we don't use, as the case may be.

*As a side note you may find interesting or humorous, in the last winning team in the Cannonball Express that I could find records for, the winning team was three guys who dressed as the Blues Brothers, rebuilt the Bluesmobile, and made the trip from New York to LA in just over 34 hours. For the record, that was at an average speed of 82 miles per hour.

Third, the Cannonball Express has no set route, other than the starting point and the destination. In the words of the Greybeards "We know your destiny, but we haven't got clue one on how you're going to get there." Eh, I THINK that MIGHT be what they say... or maybe not... :)

In our case, we'll need to determine what point is the start, and what point is the finish. One could say the start is Helgen or wherever your character begins after creation, and ends at death or completion of some task or set of tasks for which points will be awarded. How we individually get there is up to the player.

Now we get down to difference between the Cannonball and our competition. I have a few basic proposals for us to discuss.

First, I suggest that at the beginning of the comp all load orders are posted with the character's entry.

Second, I suggest that those mods be rated as "helpful" or "not helpful" by Richard or the contestants in general if he doesn't want to. Each mod then has a rating of either "+1" or "-1". +1 for "not helpful" -1 for helpful.

At the end of the competition when the scores are tallied, difficulty effects the score just as it always has with no difference. The pluses and minuses are worked out to compute a net value...

For instance:
Frostfall -1
Deadly Dragons -1
Convenient Horses +1
Immersive Armors +1
Immersive Weapons +1

Net value = +1
Richard (or whoever rates the mods) can adjust the weight accordingly... some mods might deserve more than a + or - 1. The thing about rating the mods in this fashion is that most mods are either null, (being just eye candy) or popularly used so once a mod is rated we wouldn't have to ever rate it again unless it had major changes made to it.

Then it becomes a matter of WHAT the winner wins, based on his/her mod score. The person who enters a competition using God Mode wins a dunce hat that he/she can use for his/her avatar if they so desire. The person with a net:

-10 or lower is "Bad to the Bone"

-7 through -9 is awarded "The Rambo Bandana"

-4 through -6 gets "The fonzerelli award"

0 through -3 gets "I coulda been a contender"

+1 through +3 gets "Merry Christmas, you filthy animal!"

+4 through +6 gets "Bartender, fetch me some milk"

+7 through +9 gets "Take it, just don't hurt me!"

+10 or higher gets "So dude... got any catnip on you?"
(these are just examples, of course)

These awards would be given to the high score, Perhaps to second and third as well (with some modification to note their position for those not in first place).

I leave the theme and goals of the competition up to the consensus of the group...

So, whaddya think?










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Areial
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That works.. and i'll think on it... but how does one rate them with a pure vanilla game?

If we are all playing on PC, PS4 or X-box1 then everyone has the chance to add mod's that give them a + or - ...but right now not everyone does.

Plus even their, their must be some rules.. D.D. allows for "essential" NPC's and followers... No dragon attack's in town. AFT and some of the other follower mod's allow for essential companions.. Convenient horses, essential horses... No matter which way you look at that facet it would be unfair for those that still play vanilla and don't have that option.

Now even when I have used those in game, I never have the toggle set so that I had that kind of advantage over console players... but then, I play for fun...not trying to get 1st place. The one and only time I ever tried ( and succeeded) to get 1st was one on the Nekkid Nord runs...where one of the contestants...cheated...we knew he cheated...made a video of it...and I beat him.. almost fair and square. As I made the route, I knew all the short cut's. The rules weren't specific enough.

It leaves a sour taste in the mouth...and I would not brag on that win...as I knew some of the passes I don't think anyone else used.. though sprinted rarely. As I play for the fun of it, I don't look on making the route's as a cheat on my part..

And That's another thing... I'm going to suggest a Nekkid Nord Sleigh Run.. With a twist.
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neildarkstar
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As I was making that list of "awards" and the plus or minus, it seemed to me that vanilla was the base line... the absolute null. Perhaps "0" would deserve an award all of its own, but in the end it would be the score that counts. Not much different than "Adept" having a 1 multiplier in the difficulty area.

Now I'm interested in hearing more about this "sleigh run"... :)
Edited by neildarkstar, Nov 26 2016, 01:40 PM.
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Areial
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I haven't come up with exactly how to combine them... but I want to do a something between the "12 Days of Christmas" that we did and a "Nekkid Nord" race. ..

Premise... Timed scavenger hunt... Only timed between towns... So you Scavenger hunt... IN the towns. collecting the item's for the Scavenger hunt.... This of course would need to be a "thief" type character. No armor rating. ** A skimpy Non-armored "Santa" or "elf" outfit are allowed... so Rick can see the pictures!

This would I think go well with the "Thief" type round we had talked about earlier. It would also work with using mods for those that can.. Might be able to use the same character IF one did the Run first.

I would like it set up so that our Non-DiD player's might want to join for the fun of it.. though a Death would mean a restart.. But I think at the last town would be fine.... this IS supposed to be for fun. It's timed, so Each leg can be separate .. Ie if a leg is from Whiterun to Solitude and one dies on the way to Solitude, they can restart at the exit point of Whiterun...meaning make a save there.

As the point is to race not fight... one should be trying to avoid it. That''s all I have for now.. but I'll be thinking in the next two days... of course input is always good... cause it getting it done by Christmas...or shortly their after would be the goal.!
Edited by Areial, Nov 26 2016, 02:08 PM.
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glargg
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I think I'll pass on the next round.

I'm playing a non-TES game at the moment, and I have a notion to get back to Nokandu's story next. I left the poor cat lounging in his chair by the fire at Lakeview Manor. He's probably having a terrible time there... ;)
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Serethil
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glargg
Nov 26 2016, 11:57 PM
I think I'll pass on the next round.

I'm playing a non-TES game at the moment, and I have a notion to get back to Nokandu's story next. I left the poor cat lounging in his chair by the fire at Lakeview Manor. He's probably having a terrible time there... ;)
Might depend on which season it is - and how snowy and cold outside?
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Areial
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And we still need to get the next round ... hammered in.
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After Dark
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neildarkstar
Nov 26 2016, 12:59 PM

First, I suggest that at the beginning of the comp all load orders are posted with the character's entry.

Second, I suggest that those mods be rated as "helpful" or "not helpful" by Richard or the contestants in general if he doesn't want to. Each mod then has a rating of either "+1" or "-1". +1 for "not helpful" -1 for helpful.

At the end of the competition when the scores are tallied, difficulty effects the score just as it always has with no difference. The pluses and minuses are worked out to compute a net value...

For instance:
Frostfall -1
Deadly Dragons -1
Convenient Horses +1
Immersive Armors +1
Immersive Weapons +1

Net value = +1
Richard (or whoever rates the mods) can adjust the weight accordingly... some mods might deserve more than a + or - 1. The thing about rating the mods in this fashion is that most mods are either null, (being just eye candy) or popularly used so once a mod is rated we wouldn't have to ever rate it again unless it had major changes made to it.

Then it becomes a matter of WHAT the winner wins, based on his/her mod score. The person who enters a competition using God Mode wins a dunce hat that he/she can use for his/her avatar if they so desire. The person with a net:

-10 or lower is "Bad to the Bone"

-7 through -9 is awarded "The Rambo Bandana"

-4 through -6 gets "The fonzerelli award"

0 through -3 gets "I coulda been a contender"

+1 through +3 gets "Merry Christmas, you filthy animal!"

+4 through +6 gets "Bartender, fetch me some milk"

+7 through +9 gets "Take it, just don't hurt me!"

+10 or higher gets "So dude... got any catnip on you?"
(these are just examples, of course)

These awards would be given to the high score, Perhaps to second and third as well (with some modification to note their position for those not in first place).

I leave the theme and goals of the competition up to the consensus of the group...

So, whaddya think?










I totally agree there should be some compensation/penalty to mods, but sometimes is hard to quantify the advantage/disadvantage a certain mod gives over vanilla or other mod in the same category.

Let's look at SkyUI. That's a must have because so many mods depends on that MCM menu, but is it an advantage over the vanilla interface or just eyecandy?
I'll let you think over this and i'll give you my opinion later.

There are some mods that make the game much more difficult. Most of the combat overhauls are intended for Adept difficulty. If you take it to Master or Legendary, it's simply impossible to advance. Those using such mods should benefit from the Legendary multiplier (or even more), even if he plays on Adept/Expert (unless he uses another mod that compensate like immersive armors/spell pack...).
Again, it's hard to quantify how much harder the game became with those mods.
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Rick
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After Dark
Nov 27 2016, 08:22 AM

I totally agree there should be some compensation/penalty to mods, but sometimes is hard to quantify the advantage/disadvantage a certain mod gives over vanilla or other mod in the same category
THIS

plus some mods allow for several aspects of game play to be altered at once and making one thing easier may not be countered by making some other thing harder....and vise versa 'natch

In the case of D.D also of course the player chooses how much more deadly..or not....those dragons become.....so they may not be all that 'deadly' at all.......its player discretion.....expand for other mods

The point is you just can't compare apples and oranges.....or have a winners accolade on this basis.....at the very least it would sow dissent.

A 'Run what ya brung' Fun Round would be very amusing...but if we're talking anything competative....where doing your best TO WIN is the aim....well I can't see anything other than a level field being the way to go imo.

BTW....currently.....XB1 has just LOST the SSE unoffical patch.....Arthmoor is rightfully seething.....and talking of withdrawring his support.
Thick and nasty Beth Moderators are to blame for a knee jerk reaction to some spurious complaint.......details are sketchy :(
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neildarkstar
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I think the part you're not seeing Rick, is simply that there is NO level playing field, and no way to create one. Think about this for a moment...

How many hours have you spent playing vanilla Skyrim? Several thousand, yes? How many Uldas were there? 200? 300? You've spent years playing the same character in the same game, you know exactly what vanilla creatures are inside any given dungeon, what their capabilities are, and how to best defeat them at levels that run up through what, 80?

Sah says rightly that you are the best DiD player she has ever seen, but in effect, you have the equivalent of a Master's degree in Skrim DiDology? :)

Compare that with most of the rest of us. I'll use myself for an example, because I know my experience better than I know anyone elses, eh?

I have a mere 6000 hours in Skyrim, and out of that practically NONE is actually in vanilla Skyrim. My game changes every few months because I add or remove mods that change things up. I DO NOT KNOW what vanilla monsters are in every dungeon, or even in most dungeons, and I do not know how to best defeat vanilla foes on a master or legendary setting.

I can tell you how I handle Draman Skeletons, Winged Twilight, Deadroth, Dark Seducers, Golden Saints, Giant Tundra Spiders, and numerous different varieties of bear, wolves, and sabrecats with very different capabilities than vanilla, but when you remove those creatures from the game, Skyrim seems singularly empty to me, and I don't fully understand the capabilities (or just as importantly the AI) of vanilla creatures.

This is especially true since I have never seen what new creatures might appear after level 40, simply because I've never had a character go that high. I've actually become convinced that my game doesn't allow for a high-level DiD character.

I'm not faulting YOU for any of that, but the simple fact is that there will be NO level playing field. What you see as a level playing field gives you a large (and equally unquantifiable) advantage. Again, not your fault, but don't go telling me about your "level playing field", eh? :)

It's kinda like taking a guy who has been shooting pistols all of his life out to a gun range for a competition. Then you hand him a .308 rifle and tell him all he has to do is to just hit that coffee can that's sitting a thousand yards out... and then telling him it's a competition with a level playing field because after all, he has years of shooting experience right? :)
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Areial
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@After dark... IMO SkyUI is helpful, in that it's easier to find items... Not even including how it allow's for MCM menus... it could be considered an "advantage mod" . But does it actually help "in game", anything my character truly needs in on "favorite" anyway, just one click and there. ( I am not one of those people that put's 100's of item's on favorite... just the most needed.


@Rick... I Swear a few of the Beth moderator's have their head's up their asses...



As I play the competition's "For the fun of it" and never take them seriously, when it stops being fun.. I stop playing in them.

Rick, D.D. is an odd one... cause "default" the multiplier's for damage are the same as vanilla, what is not the same is the Dragon's AI. The way they attack is different enough, to cause problem's IF you expect a "normal" fight. * which is neither here nor there*


As anything we do, rules have to be set 1st. We could do a "fun run through" of using the mod's that we generally us.. So we can get through whichever round we are going to do for December and pound out the rules for that kind of round for January... This I think is twitchy enough to need time to get the rules and which mod's are "advantage" and which "make the game harder".

But let's not forget that play-style is also a factor... Rick you play a specific way and most of the rounds that have not accommodated that.. you've skipped lately. That is your comfort zone and while that's fine... you have your play style down to a science.. you know exactly what to do when... that is what Neil is talking about.

He's played a certain style with certain mods for long enough that he's used to the way creatures and NPC's react with those mod's active. You know not to use the Atronach Stone with a conjuring mage, He know's that Marked For Death...Suck's...but you rely on it.

I like a level playing field... So I play on Adept or Expert.. why, because that is where the damage given verses how much an NPC can sponge is even with a characters.. To a point of course. I add in mod's that make the game "funner" for me.. ok yeah so it's also harder... in ways. Some of the Arm's and Armor I use are a bit OP to begin with... but I that character might not be a "crafter" .

So we will take Asherea for example.. the armor she is using give's her an AR of 146 she is right now lvl 10, using Eimar's Edge ( base Ebony stat's).. neither is even tempered, nor will they be til around lvl 20, when enemies get harder, then it will be to Superior at the most....around lvl 30 she'll smith them up again. She will not enchant or use alchemy at all.

With Death Alternative...she has been in "bleed out" more than once, if not for Argis and Calder, she would have been dead.. I do not use DA on "solo characters" ... it seriously makes it a P.I.T.A...but also funny.

Like Neil, I have used D.D, and Immersive Creatures in competition .. all the toggles set so that...no advantages in them only the part's that make the game harder.. I had to restart twice because something I never saw killed my character...but..it was fun! As I said, I play for fun, not to "win"...

Sorry the post is so long...
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Areial
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Ohhh...spoooky Neil....daaaaammmnn didn't know ya were posting.
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Brambleberry
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Perhaps we should rotate "types" of DiD play.

I would enjoy seeing a modded DiD non-competition play through with folks listing their mods and then through pics/vids see the mayhem, mastery, shenanigans and other crazy things that ensue. Much like sharing mods we like in the mods thread this would be a way for others to see the mods in action and possibly try them out for themselves afterward based on what they've seen. The only limits we would probably need to put on this is time. At the end of which we could all get popcorn :pop: and sit around and talk about our adventures.

We could also have our regular DiD play throughs where folks have a vanilla setup and off we go doing a thief, warrior, mage, hybrid DiD round with specific goals in mind.

And then, of course, there are the fun Nekkid Nord runs and mini-game type stuff we can throw in there when we're between competitions or just plain exhausted from running around. With upcoming mods that add unique treasures I think we'll have some fun treasure hunting stuff everyone will be able to enjoy (hopefully for all platforms, durn sony anywho)!

:bunny:
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Rick
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@ Neil.... @Areial

I don't know how to go about anwering all that and I can't face a lengthy point by point account.

Look....yes we are well practiced in the vanilla world....but in competition do you not think it throws our game too...when we have to suddenly lose special skill sets? Or not have super smithed armour and one handed. Marked for Death IS very useful mid game...it makes things killable even on legendary, but you might be surprised to know that after about level 40 we no longer use it much in combat....prefering instead Dragonrend and the fast kill of high level weapons and marksman potions. The Contessa always loves Marked for Death on basic bandits of course.....but she is a sick puppy.

Also...tbh Neil...I certainly do not recall what to find down every dark pit at each respective level and I often just have to suck it and see. Vanilla creature AI is much less sophisticated than Immersive Creatures or similar....if you fight those ok, then going vanilla should be easier rather than throwing you off.

Yes we have done less competitions of late for several reasons....not really because of being out of our comfort zones...but because I have been trying to concentrate on Adella's growth and MQ write ups....(and now...I have personal stresses that are interferring with many aspects of my little life).

When we discuss mod use in competitions of course, its not just about what settings 'you' might use....but also what a new entrant might believe is 'fair'.

This is what we had with the sleigh run business....where a new entrant thought it ok to sprint it...when we knew the idea was a conventional running race. If you like...the ability to sprint was like having an improvement mod available....the guy just naturally took advantage...(and timed the announcement to pretty much ensure no counter attempt could come in after...so I was pleased Areial beat him at his own game.)

So why don't we just have a score multiplier that rewards mods which are deemed even tougher than vanilla legendary....well because vanilla players are unable to reach that multiplier...making it unfair. Its a similar logic as why we now have restricted play hours to stop 'all day available' players from scooping up the win after putting in four times the play hours of anyone else.

Oh btw By level forty you've seen all the creatures on vanilla...but Skyrim chucks more and more of the top foes at you. So every tomb is filled with mostly ebony weaponed Deathlords...boss chambres get Dragonpriests and sabrecats start doubling or trebling up. Falmer become Warmongers and the game attempts to swamp you with baddies....

@ Bram......yes :)
Edited by Rick, Nov 27 2016, 01:07 PM.
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Brambleberry
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On the topic of level playing fields here's a couple septims worth (p.s. Grits gets first grabs):

To make a playing field level one can only do so by things one can control. In the realm of Skyrim DiD:

1. player experience will always vary and so cannot be a part of the equation because it is not something one can control.

2. Platform. This cannot be controlled as some will have PC, Xbox 360, Xbox1, PS3, PS4.

3. The game itself. If everyone must use, just as an example, SSE Vanilla absolutely no mods (I know older consoles can't use it, it's just an example). Then everyone has the same advantages/disadvantages the game has to offer.

However, I will caveat #3 with this, the different platforms experience different glitches with Syrim. That said, it isn't something that one can control and therefore would not be taken into account when trying to level a playing field.

Finally, to my previous post, this particular set up of Skyrim no mods could be used for one "type" of DiD competition and we can expand our kinds of competition to include mods. I would suggest baby steps and have a list of mods generated by our community and then perhaps we'll pick 10 mods that everyone can use and do a competition with those installed. As we go forward we can mix, match, increase, decrease mod count and keep the competitions dynamic.

All of this is just food for thought, nom, nom nom. Slide and dice away, add or subtract if you feel something needs expanding on trimming. No matter what, like Areial has said I play the competitions more for fun than to win (especially since Sheo always picks on me during competitions ;) ).
Edited by Brambleberry, Nov 27 2016, 01:22 PM.
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glargg
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I think we can't afford to look too closely at trying to make a "level playing field." It can't be done unless we all use the same exact equipment. Even the two consoles play differently, and have different bugs.

Example: I'm not going to play Skyrim without SkyUI. But SkyUI allows me to do much more powerful hotkeys than vanilla does. I can intentionally not make use of that ability, but there's no way to enforce that.

Consider this:

In normal (non-competition) play, I use a mod that puts classes back into Skyrim. It does this by adding 10 points to 6 "class skills," while reducing all of the other skills by 10. Thus a Breton mage, who would ordinarily have a starting Conjuration skill of 25, has it boosted to 35, while skills like Smithing and Sneak are reduced to 5.

The way I play, this makes the game more challenging, because the 12 skills at level 5 are nearly useless. But in a skill-limited competition, a custom class using this mod would have a huge advantage. So, what I'm saying is that there's no easy way to say whether this mod should be rated + or -, since it all depends.
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