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The official Christina Aguilera thread; New album in 2018
Topic Started: Jan 8 2008, 04:23 PM (22,126 Views)
thesmu
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So disgusting
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GimmeSomeRiver
Oct 24 2012, 05:20 PM
thesmu
Oct 24 2012, 12:33 PM
I have to agree it's a fair comparison. I like both songs but they do have a *lot* in common. Just as much, if not more than BTW and EY I would say. The video was quite unusual / controversial at the time as far as I recall too..
Gaga said she consciously let go of the metaphors and decided to be quite literal with the lyrics of BTW in an attempt to bring the point home as strongly as possible.
Which might make them socially effective but it certainly doesn't make them any less blunt. It took me a long time to come round to BTW mainly because the lyrics are so literal. I understand what she was doing with it and why but I think taking a pop at Beautiful for the bluntness of its love-yourself lyrics was inviting the comparison.

There's surely not much in it between the line you quoted 'I am beautiful no matter what they say' and 'I'm beautiful in my way cos god makes no mistakes' except maybe that the latter annoys me more because it brings god into it!
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Riverwide
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thesmu
Oct 24 2012, 05:53 PM
GimmeSomeRiver
Oct 24 2012, 05:20 PM
thesmu
Oct 24 2012, 12:33 PM
I have to agree it's a fair comparison. I like both songs but they do have a *lot* in common. Just as much, if not more than BTW and EY I would say. The video was quite unusual / controversial at the time as far as I recall too..
Gaga said she consciously let go of the metaphors and decided to be quite literal with the lyrics of BTW in an attempt to bring the point home as strongly as possible.
Which might make them socially effective but it certainly doesn't make them any less blunt. It took me a long time to come round to BTW mainly because the lyrics are so literal. I understand what she was doing with it and why but I think taking a pop at Beautiful for the bluntness of its love-yourself lyrics was inviting the comparison.

There's surely not much in it between the line you quoted 'I am beautiful no matter what they say' and 'I'm beautiful in my way cos god makes no mistakes' except maybe that the latter annoys me more because it brings god into it!
Really? I actually don't even think she means "God" in THAT way. I always take it to mean something that isn't even religious. Just "God" as in "everything". There are no mistakes, because we're all born exactly who we're meant to be. That's just how I take it. Not that I'd be offended if she meant the Christian God either. Her song, her belief system.
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GimmeSomeRiver
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When I lay in bed I touch myself and I think of you
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thesmu
Oct 24 2012, 05:53 PM
GimmeSomeRiver
Oct 24 2012, 05:20 PM
thesmu
Oct 24 2012, 12:33 PM
I have to agree it's a fair comparison. I like both songs but they do have a *lot* in common. Just as much, if not more than BTW and EY I would say. The video was quite unusual / controversial at the time as far as I recall too..
Gaga said she consciously let go of the metaphors and decided to be quite literal with the lyrics of BTW in an attempt to bring the point home as strongly as possible.
Which might make them socially effective but it certainly doesn't make them any less blunt. It took me a long time to come round to BTW mainly because the lyrics are so literal. I understand what she was doing with it and why but I think taking a pop at Beautiful for the bluntness of its love-yourself lyrics was inviting the comparison.

There's surely not much in it between the line you quoted 'I am beautiful no matter what they say' and 'I'm beautiful in my way cos god makes no mistakes' except maybe that the latter annoys me more because it brings god into it!
I think some of the lyrics to BTW are clunky too I just mentioned that the literalness of it might have been on purpose, Gaga can spin an amazing lyric in her sleep. Beautiful wasn't even written by Aguilera anyway.


But mainly I came here to post this:

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Vancho
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Oh Father has a very repetitive and simplistic melody. It's a little better than Dear Jessie.

The lyrics are nothing special:
It's funny that way
You can get used
To the tears and the pain
What a child will believe
You never loved me

You can't hurt me now
I got away from you
I never thought I would
You can't make me cry
You once had the power
I never felt so good about myself

Seems like yesterday
I lay down next to your boots and I prayed
For your anger to end
Oh Father I have sinned

You can't hurt me now
I got away from you
I never thought I would
You can't make me cry
You once had the power
I never felt so good about myself

Oh Father
You never wanted to live that way
You never wanted to hurt me
Why am I running away
Oh Father
You never wanted to live that way
You never wanted to hurt me
Why am I running away

Maybe someday
When I look back I'll be able to say
You didn't mean to be cruel
Somebody hurt you too

You can't hurt me now
I got away from you
I never thought I would
You can't make me cry
You once had the power
I never felt so good

You can't hurt me now
I got away from you
I never thought I would
You can't make me cry
You once had the power
I never felt so good about myself
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thesmu
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So disgusting
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Riverwide
Oct 24 2012, 05:57 PM
thesmu
Oct 24 2012, 05:53 PM
GimmeSomeRiver
Oct 24 2012, 05:20 PM
thesmu
Oct 24 2012, 12:33 PM
I have to agree it's a fair comparison. I like both songs but they do have a *lot* in common. Just as much, if not more than BTW and EY I would say. The video was quite unusual / controversial at the time as far as I recall too..
Gaga said she consciously let go of the metaphors and decided to be quite literal with the lyrics of BTW in an attempt to bring the point home as strongly as possible.
Which might make them socially effective but it certainly doesn't make them any less blunt. It took me a long time to come round to BTW mainly because the lyrics are so literal. I understand what she was doing with it and why but I think taking a pop at Beautiful for the bluntness of its love-yourself lyrics was inviting the comparison.

There's surely not much in it between the line you quoted 'I am beautiful no matter what they say' and 'I'm beautiful in my way cos god makes no mistakes' except maybe that the latter annoys me more because it brings god into it!
Really? I actually don't even think she means "God" in THAT way. I always take it to mean something that isn't even religious. Just "God" as in "everything". There are no mistakes, because we're all born exactly who we're meant to be. That's just how I take it. Not that I'd be offended if she meant the Christian God either. Her song, her belief system.
Oh, totally - I'm not offended by it at all for exactly that reason she can sing about what she believes in of course but the 'capital Him' that is repeated twice in the song makes it pretty clear it's God and a Christian God specifically that she's referencing. It can of course still be taken as you say in a more generalised sense too it's just that for me, personally, it made it a bit less easy to grab a hold of because I don't 'believe capital Him' myself. Saying all that the thing that put me off the lyrics wasn't that really so much as the blunt, clunkyness of the whole 'no matter black, white or beige etc' type stuff. But like I say I've come round to it and I can understand the importance of it - particularly the gay, straight or bi, lesbian transgender life line which is in certain contexts really refreshingly blunt.

I'm not saying BTW = bad, Beautiful = good just that I don't think the lyrics of BTW are much to crow about over Beautiful in terms of bluntness or flatness which is what I was referencing in GMSR's post..


Edit: Just to contradict myself, I think other religions may use 'Him' too actually now that I think about it but for some reason I associate it very much with Christianity..
Edited by thesmu, Oct 24 2012, 07:46 PM.
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thesmu
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So disgusting
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Actually she's probably talking about that scandanavian goth guy..
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thesmu
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So disgusting
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Ivane
Oct 24 2012, 07:30 PM
Oh Father has a very repetitive and simplistic melody. It's a little better than Dear Jessie.

The lyrics are nothing special:
It's funny that way
You can get used
To the tears and the pain
What a child will believe
You never loved me

You can't hurt me now
I got away from you
I never thought I would
You can't make me cry
You once had the power
I never felt so good about myself

Seems like yesterday
I lay down next to your boots and I prayed
For your anger to end
Oh Father I have sinned

You can't hurt me now
I got away from you
I never thought I would
You can't make me cry
You once had the power
I never felt so good about myself

Oh Father
You never wanted to live that way
You never wanted to hurt me
Why am I running away
Oh Father
You never wanted to live that way
You never wanted to hurt me
Why am I running away

Maybe someday
When I look back I'll be able to say
You didn't mean to be cruel
Somebody hurt you too

You can't hurt me now
I got away from you
I never thought I would
You can't make me cry
You once had the power
I never felt so good

You can't hurt me now
I got away from you
I never thought I would
You can't make me cry
You once had the power
I never felt so good about myself
I find both the lyrics and the melody of Oh Father extremely moving. The lyrics are quite clever - the father pun that runs through them but they have an emotional rawness which along with the vocal and the melody I find very affecting.
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thesmu
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So disgusting
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Especially where it goes all woozy and swoony around the 'You can't hurt me now' parts..
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GimmeSomeRiver
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When I lay in bed I touch myself and I think of you
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I cannot fathom how someone can not consider Oh Father one of Madonna's crowning achievements, let alone put it lower than dross like 'Beautiful'. It's an imperial ballad.
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Jimmy Mack
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GimmeSomeRiver
Oct 24 2012, 07:56 PM
I cannot fathom how someone can not consider Oh Father one of Madonna's crowning achievements, let alone put it lower than dross like 'Beautiful'. It's an imperial ballad.

As much as I think "Beautiful" is an enjoyable ballad, that anyone could argue that "Oh Father" is anything less than masterful is a horror to behold.
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Riverwide
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Jimmy Mack
Oct 24 2012, 08:03 PM
GimmeSomeRiver
Oct 24 2012, 07:56 PM
I cannot fathom how someone can not consider Oh Father one of Madonna's crowning achievements, let alone put it lower than dross like 'Beautiful'. It's an imperial ballad.

As much as I think "Beautiful" is an enjoyable ballad, that anyone could argue that "Oh Father" is anything less than masterful is a horror to behold.
Absolutely. I am genuinely appalled. "Beautiful" is a fine pop ballad. "Oh Father" is a work of fucking ART. Every single thing about is sublime.
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bulgar
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Guys, it's called having an opinion; everyone is entitled to one. Why is it SO HARD for some people to understand?
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GimmeSomeRiver
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Some things are undeniable. The Mona Lisa is better than Batman comics. I love Batman, but the two just cannot be compared. What's next? Usher shits all over Michael Jackson?
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Riverwide
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bulgar
Oct 24 2012, 09:25 PM
Guys, it's called having an opinion; everyone is entitled to one. Why is it SO HARD for some people to understand?
Um...we're expressing our OPINION too. What's so difficult to understand about that?

Comparing Beautiful to Oh Father is like comparing an episode of Glee to Citizen Kane. That is MY opinion.
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Beautiful Stranger
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GimmeSomeRiver
Oct 24 2012, 09:29 PM
Some things are undeniable. The Mona Lisa is better than Batman comics. I love Batman, but the two just cannot be compared. What's next? Usher shits all over Michael Jackson?
Why are you comparing a painting to comic books? How does that make any sense? That's like saying a Bentley Mulsanne isn't as good as a pair of Manolo Blahnik pumps. And yes, there are various Batman comics that are comparatively as brilliant and as at the top of their medium as the Mona Lisa is.

Your second comparison is the valid one and relevant to the discussion. One could argue that just like Usher being a watered down MJ wannabe, Xtina has tried desperately to recreate countless aspects of Madonna's career and failed miserably. Such as recording brilliant ballads on top of the upbeat numbers.
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Beautiful Stranger
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bulgar
Oct 24 2012, 09:25 PM
Guys, it's called having an opinion; everyone is entitled to one. Why is it SO HARD for some people to understand?
I'm sure you've heard the phrase, "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they're usually full of shit."

FACTS have to come in to play eventually, and the fact of the matter is "Beautiful" is a by-the-numbers commercial success-baiting ballad while nothing like "Oh Father" has ever been a smash at mainstream radio. It was a risk to release it as a single and that was proven to be true when it broke Madonna's record streak of 17 consecutive Hot 100 Top 10 singles.

The song being far more musically and melodically interesting is also not a matter of opinion.
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Riverwide
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"Oh Father" is a song for grown-ups. "Beautiful" is a song for...other people.
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Beautiful Stranger
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Riverwide
Oct 24 2012, 09:50 PM
"Oh Father" is a song for grown-ups. "Beautiful" is a song for...other people.
"Beautiful" is a song for fat girls who accidentally suffocated the first guy they slept with.
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GimmeSomeRiver
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When I lay in bed I touch myself and I think of you
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Beautiful Stranger
Oct 24 2012, 09:41 PM
GimmeSomeRiver
Oct 24 2012, 09:29 PM
Some things are undeniable. The Mona Lisa is better than Batman comics. I love Batman, but the two just cannot be compared. What's next? Usher shits all over Michael Jackson?
Why are you comparing a painting to comic books? How does that make any sense? That's like saying a Bentley Mulsanne isn't as good as a pair of Manolo Blahnik pumps. And yes, there are various Batman comics that are comparatively as brilliant and as at the top of their medium as the Mona Lisa is.
Er, in that one is a painting and the other is a comic book panel? It's pretty self explanatory if you think a little bit.
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FuckBuddy
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GimmeSomeRiver
Oct 24 2012, 07:15 PM
But mainly I came here to post this:

quite a work of art :drama:

too bad youtube didn't exist back in 1989 or else there'd also be a gay video version of oh daddy filmed and floating all over the web. such a lost opportunity, really.
Edited by FuckBuddy, Oct 24 2012, 11:37 PM.
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