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Why feminism is crap
Topic Started: Feb 12 2018, 04:52 AM (565 Views)
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan
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I am strongly anti-feminism. I support social equality, but not so-called "feminism". The existence of feminism is discrimination itself, if there is a "feminism" why there isn't a "menism"?

Feminism a discriminatory ideology and continues to portray women as victims. It is also a great problem in Hong Kong. Nowadays, women are both high above men in ideology, in getting along with each other, in practical laws and in power. Women are naturally easy to get sympathy, and they make full use of this advantage.

Woman can verbally attack men. Men cannot. If the men cannot endure it, the woman will defeat the man by legal means. "Social equality" in Hong Kong is basically women>men. Every time they have the chance, feminist organizations would say "attack women", "insult woman", blah blah blah. And also the stupid #metoo thing portrays women as victims.
Edited by Soopairik, Feb 12 2018, 07:35 AM.
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Soopairik
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Fixed the title of your post. There’s going to be enough drama as it is in this section, so there’s no need for swearing.
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Jinfengopteryx
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While I would not call myself an anti-feminist (I'm not in the camp of those who feel the need to disagree with everything feminists say), I definitely agree with the sentiment in the OP that all sorts of identity politics should be rejected. Feminism is, after all, female identity politics, nothing more. What we need is egalitarianism/progressivism.

BTW, "meninsm" exists, it's called Men's Rights Activism (MRA).
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Soopairik
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Spino
 
I support social equality, but not so-called "feminism".

Merriam Webster defines feminism in two ways.
1. the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2. organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

Basically, feminism is when you organize activity on women's rights to make sure the two sexes are equal. Nothing wrong with that by itself. Things go wrong when extremists take things too far, which is what is happening nowadays in certain incidents.

Spino
 
The existence of feminism is discrimination itself, if there is a "feminism" why there isn't a "menism"?

No, it's not. Women were discriminated against for many years, so it makes sense for people nowadays to want more feminism in their society. Men were very rarely discriminated against in the old days. That is not to say they were not, but women were significantly more harassed.

Spino
 
Feminism a discriminatory ideology and continues to portray women as victims.

It portrays women as victims because in many parts of the world, women continue to be harassed or discriminated against. And I already told you why Feminism is not discriminatory.

Spino
 
It is also a great problem in Hong Kong. Nowadays, women are both high above men in ideology, in getting along with each other, in practical laws and in power. Women are naturally easy to get sympathy, and they make full use of this advantage.

Above men? i would say both sexes should be treated equally, and it seems like they are being treated equally in most of the developed world. There is obviously still some discrimination going on though, and the double standards need to stop.

Spino
 
Woman can verbally attack men. Men cannot. If the men cannot endure it, the woman will defeat the man by legal means. "Social equality" in Hong Kong is basically women>men. Every time they have the chance, feminist organizations would say "attack women", "insult woman", blah blah blah.

That is true. Double standards need to stop. That does not make feminism bad by itself, if we go by the word-for-word definition of feminism.

Spino
 
And also the stupid #metoo thing portrays women as victims.

Because a lot of women do get sexually harassed in public areas, and the movement is trying to raise awareness. However, I do understand where you are coming from as men may feel uncomfortable by the movement.
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Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan
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Feminism is not social equality nowadays.

Like communism isn't really communism.
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Soopairik
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Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan
Feb 12 2018, 10:48 PM
Feminism is not social equality nowadays.

Like communism isn't really communism.
Take a small sample of very vocal extremists and apply it to the whole group is what you are doing with feminists.
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Xanny
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Read what actual feminist authors and academics have to say and not what 14 year old girls on instagram or 45 year old neckbeards on YouTube have to say about a very large scope of philosophical, sociological and political theory.

Feminism at it's most basic is the equality of the sex. Everything else stems outwards from this and that includes a whole scope of different contrasting views but ultimately do not compromise the underlying point.

This is coming from an anti fem turned feminist years ago.
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Jinfengopteryx
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My main problem with feminism is not so much what radical feminists are saying or that I am denying that discrimination against women exists, but with the concept itself. I have difficulties in defining it as "equality", since like justice, this is a vague word which people of different ideologies define differently. Equal rights? If so, equal negative or positive rights? Equal opportunities? Total equality? Plus, egalitarians are also claiming to be pro-equality. What separates feminists from them?

The most useful definition of "feminism" is "female identity politics" and there lies the problem. I am opposed to the concept of identity politics, since it is balkanises society by putting people in in-groups and out-groups. Plus, the concept of a patriarchy is crucial for feminism, yet poorly defined and unfalsifiable. It is unfalsifiable because it, in its most basic form, describes a society in which males are privileged. However, if you point to areas where males are not-so privileged, you will find feminists claiming that the patriarchy also harms men.
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Soopairik
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I would say equity is more important than equality. I’m fine with someone having more money than someone else, as long as they started out with the same opportunity.
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Xanny
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Jinfengopteryx
Feb 13 2018, 07:38 AM
My main problem with feminism is not so much what radical feminists are saying or that I am denying that discrimination against women exists, but with the concept itself. I have difficulties in defining it as "equality", since like justice, this is a vague word which people of different ideologies define differently. Equal rights? If so, equal negative or positive rights? Equal opportunities? Total equality? Plus, egalitarians are also claiming to be pro-equality. What separates feminists from them?

The most useful definition of "feminism" is "female identity politics" and there lies the problem. I am opposed to the concept of identity politics, since it is balkanises society by putting people in in-groups and out-groups. Plus, the concept of a patriarchy is crucial for feminism, yet poorly defined and unfalsifiable. It is unfalsifiable because it, in its most basic form, describes a society in which males are privileged. However, if you point to areas where males are not-so privileged, you will find feminists claiming that the patriarchy also harms men.
Such questions can be answered by just doing basic/necessary reading. There is so much feminist literature or work done that can explain things like patriarchy, inequality and repression of both the sexes and so on from a multitude of different view points.

Two good examples being Socialist feminists saying that patriarchy is a symptom of capitalism or Anarchist feminists saying that patriarchy and capitalism are both corrosive effects of a hierarchically structured society. These viewpoints represent patriarchy in a different light that comes into conflict with mainstream feminism which doesn't include anti capitalism into it's philosophy (these just being examples of how diverse and in-depth such a rabbit hole goes).

Identity politics isn't a reactionary force as well. How can something that attempts to understand and respond to the large divisions already present within in our society, "balkanize" it? It only seems to have that effect because of reactionary thoughts to such new changes in perspective.
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Jinfengopteryx
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I need to elaborate more on the "balkanise" part. A crucial element of identity politics is that men and women experience the world differently which is why men should not even talk on certain issues (hence the word "mansplaining" exists). This contributes to the othering of men and does not contribute to equality. It also equates shared interests with shared demographic characteristics (e.g. gender) which means agreeing with those who don't share such characteristics becomes harder.

Plus, a crucial element is emphasising your belonging to a group as a crucial part of your identity, meaning people get treated as members of collectives rather than as individuals. This contributes to the formation of in- and outgroups.
Edited by Jinfengopteryx, Feb 14 2018, 08:39 AM.
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Soopairik
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Men and women should be able to talk on the same issues. They may have different views, but it’s good to exchange ideas.
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Eagle

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The existence of feminism is discrimination itself, if there is a "feminism" why there isn't a "menism"?
Apparently, men haven't felt as oppressed thus far and haven't made this up yet. They haven't felt the need. If you feel there is a need, there's nothing stopping you from starting a "meninist" movement. What are people going to do? Disagree with you?
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Feminism a discriminatory ideology and continues to portray women as victims.
Based on this, I can safely say you disagree that they're "victims". In that case, would you mind explaining the several statistics that show women are disadvantaged?
Quote:
 
Nowadays, women are both high above men in ideology, in getting along with each other, in practical laws and in power.
Let's delve deeper into this. What does "being high above someone in ideology" even mean?

What do you mean by "getting along with each other"? The only thing I can gather from this is that you think men have more trouble getting along with other men. I can't even begin to understand how this is supposed to make any sense.
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Women are naturally easy to get sympathy, and they make full use of this advantage.
Could you elaborate on this? This seems very vague to me and could easily be countered with a statement of how men are very often seen as more heroic.
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Woman can verbally attack men. Men cannot.
Actually, anyone who verbally attacks you for no reason is wrong. If they fail to comprehend this, they're simply of very low IQ, period.
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If the men cannot endure it, the woman will defeat the man by legal means.
I'd appreciate if you could elaborate on this.
Quote:
 
"Social equality" in Hong Kong is basically women>men.
Again, I'd appreciate it if you could elaborate on this.
Quote:
 
Every time they have the chance, feminist organizations would say "attack women", "insult woman", blah blah blah.
What's the point you're trying to convey here? That whenever feminists get a chance, they bring up how they're attacked/insulted? Isn't it FAIR to bring up being attacked by others whenever possible? I think any sensible person would agree that the correct procedure whenever attacked by someone is to mention it rather than submit to unfair treatment.
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And also the stupid #metoo thing portrays women as victims.
I'm intrigued by your explicit, straightforward opposition to the idea that women are victims... as well as your refusal to state what they're supposedly victims of.
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Makayo
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Feb 14 2018, 03:50 PM
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The existence of feminism is discrimination itself, if there is a "feminism" why there isn't a "menism"?
Apparently, men haven't felt as oppressed thus far and haven't made this up yet. They haven't felt the need. If you feel there is a need, there's nothing stopping you from starting a "meninist" movement. What are people going to do? Disagree with you?
Quote:
 
Feminism a discriminatory ideology and continues to portray women as victims.
Based on this, I can safely say you disagree that they're "victims". In that case, would you mind explaining the several statistics that show women are disadvantaged?
Quote:
 
Nowadays, women are both high above men in ideology, in getting along with each other, in practical laws and in power.
Let's delve deeper into this. What does "being high above someone in ideology" even mean?

What do you mean by "getting along with each other"? The only thing I can gather from this is that you think men have more trouble getting along with other men. I can't even begin to understand how this is supposed to make any sense.
Quote:
 
Women are naturally easy to get sympathy, and they make full use of this advantage.
Could you elaborate on this? This seems very vague to me and could easily be countered with a statement of how men are very often seen as more heroic.
Quote:
 
Woman can verbally attack men. Men cannot.
Actually, anyone who verbally attacks you for no reason is wrong. If they fail to comprehend this, they're simply of very low IQ, period.
Quote:
 
If the men cannot endure it, the woman will defeat the man by legal means.
I'd appreciate if you could elaborate on this.
Quote:
 
"Social equality" in Hong Kong is basically women>men.
Again, I'd appreciate it if you could elaborate on this.
Quote:
 
Every time they have the chance, feminist organizations would say "attack women", "insult woman", blah blah blah.
What's the point you're trying to convey here? That whenever feminists get a chance, they bring up how they're attacked/insulted? Isn't it FAIR to bring up being attacked by others whenever possible? I think any sensible person would agree that the correct procedure whenever attacked by someone is to mention it rather than submit to unfair treatment.
Quote:
 
And also the stupid #metoo thing portrays women as victims.
I'm intrigued by your explicit, straightforward opposition to the idea that women are victims... as well as your refusal to state what they're supposedly victims of.
I do have some things against the SJW's that claim to be feminists, but real feminist's I approve of.
"Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled."
- Michael Crichton
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Eagle

Migatte
Feb 14 2018, 03:54 PM
I do have some things against the SJW's that claim to be feminists, but real feminist's I approve of.
What even are "SJW's"?

SJW is nothing but a derogatory term and it baffles me that anyone takes the term seriously. It's a snarl term.

Also, what are "real feminists"?
Edited by Eagle, Feb 14 2018, 04:01 PM.
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Soopairik
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Eagle
Feb 14 2018, 04:00 PM
Migatte
Feb 14 2018, 03:54 PM
I do have some things against the SJW's that claim to be feminists, but real feminist's I approve of.
What even are "SJW's"?

SJW is nothing but a derogatory term and it baffles me that anyone takes the term seriously. It's a snarl term.

Also, what are "real feminists"?
I think the point Migatte was trying to make is that some feminists are taking things too far.
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Makayo
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Soopairik
Feb 14 2018, 04:02 PM
Eagle
Feb 14 2018, 04:00 PM
Migatte
Feb 14 2018, 03:54 PM
I do have some things against the SJW's that claim to be feminists, but real feminist's I approve of.
What even are "SJW's"?

SJW is nothing but a derogatory term and it baffles me that anyone takes the term seriously. It's a snarl term.

Also, what are "real feminists"?
I think the point Migatte was trying to make is that some feminists are taking things too far.
Yes, and @Eagle, real feminist's are people who want true equality, while most SJW's try to get gender supremacy for a specific gender, be it male or female.
"Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled."
- Michael Crichton
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Eagle

Soopairik
Feb 14 2018, 04:02 PM
I think the point Migatte was trying to make is that some feminists are taking things too far.
This is not a point worth making as it is obvious and can be said about just about every movement ever.
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real feminist's are people who want true equality
Anyone with the slightest bit of respect for "true feminism" would never associate feminism to female supremacists (who, by the way, are one of the things we definitely do not need to worry about).
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Makayo
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The Imperial
Eagle
Feb 14 2018, 04:48 PM
Soopairik
Feb 14 2018, 04:02 PM
I think the point Migatte was trying to make is that some feminists are taking things too far.
This is not a point worth making as it is obvious and can be said about just about every movement ever.
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real feminist's are people who want true equality
Anyone with the slightest bit of respect for "true feminism" would never associate feminism to female supremacists (who, by the way, are one of the things we definitely do not need to worry about).
That is why I refer to female supremacists as SJW's, not feminists.
"Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled."
- Michael Crichton
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Xanny
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Jinfengopteryx
Feb 14 2018, 08:38 AM
I need to elaborate more on the "balkanise" part. A crucial element of identity politics is that men and women experience the world differently which is why men should not even talk on certain issues (hence the word "mansplaining" exists). This contributes to the othering of men and does not contribute to equality. It also equates shared interests with shared demographic characteristics (e.g. gender) which means agreeing with those who don't share such characteristics becomes harder.

Plus, a crucial element is emphasising your belonging to a group as a crucial part of your identity, meaning people get treated as members of collectives rather than as individuals. This contributes to the formation of in- and outgroups.
Mansplaining is a real common phenomenon when a man patronizes a woman on topics where men are precieved to be more knowledgeable than women. It comes from the same place which you assume that men can't talk on certain issued (which they can and a majority of feminists would agree as men are effected by patriarchy as much as woman are).

The othering of men is only reactionary to the challenge of gender norms which do not have direct benefit for men as a group. Not only that people have and will always be regarded as different varied group of people. The analysis of how people's backgrounds and how it comes to effect their societal interests and world view isn't some new radical thing from SJWs it has always existed.

Sure, not all slaves in the New World in the 18th century were African slaves but the vast majority were and the brutality suffered was a result of the introduction of a new collective group of none Europeans were introduced into European caste system.
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Eagle

Migatte
Feb 14 2018, 05:06 PM
Eagle
Feb 14 2018, 04:48 PM
Soopairik
Feb 14 2018, 04:02 PM
I think the point Migatte was trying to make is that some feminists are taking things too far.
This is not a point worth making as it is obvious and can be said about just about every movement ever.
Quote:
 
real feminist's are people who want true equality
Anyone with the slightest bit of respect for "true feminism" would never associate feminism to female supremacists (who, by the way, are one of the things we definitely do not need to worry about).
That is why I refer to female supremacists as SJW's, not feminists.
Why even bring up female supremacists, then?
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Jinfengopteryx
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Xanny
Feb 14 2018, 06:43 PM
The othering of men is only reactionary to the challenge of gender norms which do not have direct benefit for men as a group. Not only that people have and will always be regarded as different varied group of people. The analysis of how people's backgrounds and how it comes to effect their societal interests and world view isn't some new radical thing from SJWs it has always existed.

Sure, not all slaves in the New World in the 18th century were African slaves but the vast majority were and the brutality suffered was a result of the introduction of a new collective group of none Europeans were introduced into European caste system.
The thing is, won't it be more productive to form a collective on the basis of shared ideology and shared interests than on the basis of shared gender (some definitions of identity politics even include what I am proposing, though I personally won't call them identity politics, as I think it stretches the term too far)? This is the much more direct and useful way, since it avoids the problems that some women oppose feminism and that it is generally easy to make others adopt your goals than to make others adopt your gender.

Gender is at best a correlation variable for interests, it should not act as a substitute when forming groups.
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Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan
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What did I miss?
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Soopairik
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Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan
Feb 15 2018, 05:07 PM
What did I miss?
Take a read at what you miss. It’s not that hard and more productive than simply asking.
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Jinfengopteryx
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Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan
Feb 15 2018, 05:07 PM
What did I miss?
Eagle refuted you point-by-point.
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Dionysus

Define feminism?
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Eagle

Dionysus
Feb 18 2018, 10:47 AM
Define feminism?
By OP's words, female supremacy, a.k.a. not feminism.
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Dionysus

Eagle
Feb 18 2018, 10:52 AM
Dionysus
Feb 18 2018, 10:47 AM
Define feminism?
By OP's words, female supremacy, a.k.a. not feminism.
Females have always been superior we males have always sought to be comforted by and had sexual relations with females. Males will do or say anything to achieve having sexual relations with females.

female human are smaller and weaker and must submit to the male or be beaten, is that the world we males want?

Is feminism some abstract political position that will make females politically superior of will it stop male dominated societies from future denials and abuses endured by females?
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Soopairik
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Dionysus
Feb 18 2018, 01:38 PM
Eagle
Feb 18 2018, 10:52 AM
Dionysus
Feb 18 2018, 10:47 AM
Define feminism?
By OP's words, female supremacy, a.k.a. not feminism.
Females have always been superior we males have always sought to be comforted by and had sexual relations with females. Males will do or say anything to achieve having sexual relations with females.

female human are smaller and weaker and must submit to the male or be beaten, is that the world we males want?

Is feminism some abstract political position that will make females politically superior of will it stop male dominated societies from future denials and abuses endured by females?
Feminism in its most basic sense is "the theory of the political, economic, and social equality/equity of the sexes through organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests"
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Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan
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The problem is "on behalf of women's rights and interests". This is the indirect cause of female supremacists.
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