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Multiculturalism thread
Topic Started: Feb 18 2018, 07:16 AM (137 Views)
Jinfengopteryx
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Hot topic in my country. Basically, a thread for discussing how people of different ethnicities can live together. This is more something for the Europeans, as the Americans seem to worry less about it (understandable, since the Americans have little experience with a homogenous society).
Are you for ethnostates (countries should be ethnically homogenous; countries which are not are subject to ethnic cleansing; countries which are already homogenous strictly prevent foreign ethnicities from entering)?
Are you in favour of a melting pot (which basically means assimilation)?
Are you in favour of a "salad bowl" (the different cultures/ethnicities coexist without assimilating)?
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Soopairik
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Salad Bowl is fine as long as we respect each other’s views.
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Dionysus

I have no problem with people keeping their culture. My problem is when those people try to change America to the culture they came from. I am German ancestry I do not fly German flag nor admire hitler. I do like German food festivals and beer.

I also like Mexican food scottish women and caribbean sea food.
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Jinfengopteryx
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I'm in favour of a so-called Leitkultur which I understand as a set of values that should be encouraged and which foreigners should accept.
Beyond that, I am rather indifferent about the cultural practises of my neighbour as long as they don't conflict with what I understand as core values.
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Dionysus

Jinfengopteryx
Feb 18 2018, 10:21 AM
I'm in favour of a so-called Leitkultur which I understand as a set of values that should be encouraged and which foreigners should accept.
Beyond that, I am rather indifferent about the cultural practises of my neighbour as long as they don't conflict with what I understand as core values.
Leitkultur is a German concept, which can be translated as 'guiding culture' or 'leading culture', less literally as 'common culture', 'core culture' or 'basic culture'. The term was first introduced in 1998 by the German-Arab sociologist Bassam Tibi[1] and from 2000 onward the term figured prominently in the national political debate in Germany about national identity and immigration.[citation needed] The term then became associated with a monocultural vision of German society, with ideas of European cultural superiority, and with policies of compulsory cultural assimilation.

Compleeld to be the culture you are living in. Hmmm isn't that what wars are over. Let us make those Arabs accept our white western european god.

We'll have a crusade to kill all those not assimilating to our religion. Or hell we'll make an excuse to bomb Iraq to ashes because we don't like their choice of god.
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Soopairik
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Dionysus
Feb 18 2018, 01:44 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Feb 18 2018, 10:21 AM
I'm in favour of a so-called Leitkultur which I understand as a set of values that should be encouraged and which foreigners should accept.
Beyond that, I am rather indifferent about the cultural practises of my neighbour as long as they don't conflict with what I understand as core values.
Leitkultur is a German concept, which can be translated as 'guiding culture' or 'leading culture', less literally as 'common culture', 'core culture' or 'basic culture'. The term was first introduced in 1998 by the German-Arab sociologist Bassam Tibi[1] and from 2000 onward the term figured prominently in the national political debate in Germany about national identity and immigration.[citation needed] The term then became associated with a monocultural vision of German society, with ideas of European cultural superiority, and with policies of compulsory cultural assimilation.

Compleeld to be the culture you are living in. Hmmm isn't that what wars are over. Let us make those Arabs accept our white western european god.

We'll have a crusade to kill all those not assimilating to our religion. Or hell we'll make an excuse to bomb Iraq to ashes because we don't like their choice of god.
Leitkultur CAN become associated with European cultural superiority. Doesn't mean it has to be.
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Jinfengopteryx
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Dionysus
Feb 18 2018, 01:44 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Feb 18 2018, 10:21 AM
I'm in favour of a so-called Leitkultur which I understand as a set of values that should be encouraged and which foreigners should accept.
Beyond that, I am rather indifferent about the cultural practises of my neighbour as long as they don't conflict with what I understand as core values.
Leitkultur is a German concept, which can be translated as 'guiding culture' or 'leading culture', less literally as 'common culture', 'core culture' or 'basic culture'. The term was first introduced in 1998 by the German-Arab sociologist Bassam Tibi[1] and from 2000 onward the term figured prominently in the national political debate in Germany about national identity and immigration.[citation needed] The term then became associated with a monocultural vision of German society, with ideas of European cultural superiority, and with policies of compulsory cultural assimilation.

Compleeld to be the culture you are living in. Hmmm isn't that what wars are over. Let us make those Arabs accept our white western european god.

We'll have a crusade to kill all those not assimilating to our religion. Or hell we'll make an excuse to bomb Iraq to ashes because we don't like their choice of god.
I don't like what far-righters have done to the term, but I like the original definition of the term by Bassam Tibi (who also doesn't like how xenophobes have hijacked his concept). Bassam Tibi has defined Leitkultur as encompassing the primacy of human reason of divine revelation, democracy, the separation of church and state, pluralism and tolerance. What on Earth does this have to do with bombing Arabs to convert them to Christianity? Not even German far-righters are that stupid (Republicans are a whole different matter though).
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Soopairik
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I am also fine with Melting Pot but the problem is that many people are offended through "cultural appropriation."
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Jinfengopteryx
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Yeah, these people are basically like ethnocentrists, even though they don't like them.
"If a white person keeps their culture pure, they are a racist/xenophobe/ethnocentrist!
If a white person takes anything from other cultures, that's cultural appropriation"
Ludicrous.
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Eagle

Anyone who believes multiculturalism is harmful and needs to be fought in order to defend a population is an absolute moron.
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Jinfengopteryx
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While I think it can be harmful if toxic cultures are tolerated, I agree that ethnic cleansing with the purpose of establishing an ethnostate is a very bad idea.
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Dionysus

Jinfengopteryx
Feb 18 2018, 02:08 PM
Dionysus
Feb 18 2018, 01:44 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Feb 18 2018, 10:21 AM
I'm in favour of a so-called Leitkultur which I understand as a set of values that should be encouraged and which foreigners should accept.
Beyond that, I am rather indifferent about the cultural practises of my neighbour as long as they don't conflict with what I understand as core values.
Leitkultur is a German concept, which can be translated as 'guiding culture' or 'leading culture', less literally as 'common culture', 'core culture' or 'basic culture'. The term was first introduced in 1998 by the German-Arab sociologist Bassam Tibi[1] and from 2000 onward the term figured prominently in the national political debate in Germany about national identity and immigration.[citation needed] The term then became associated with a monocultural vision of German society, with ideas of European cultural superiority, and with policies of compulsory cultural assimilation.

Compleeld to be the culture you are living in. Hmmm isn't that what wars are over. Let us make those Arabs accept our white western european god.

We'll have a crusade to kill all those not assimilating to our religion. Or hell we'll make an excuse to bomb Iraq to ashes because we don't like their choice of god.
I don't like what far-righters have done to the term, but I like the original definition of the term by Bassam Tibi (who also doesn't like how xenophobes have hijacked his concept). Bassam Tibi has defined Leitkultur as encompassing the primacy of human reason of divine revelation, democracy, the separation of church and state, pluralism and tolerance. What on Earth does this have to do with bombing Arabs to convert them to Christianity? Not even German far-righters are that stupid (Republicans are a whole different matter though).
Europe cringes at Bush 'crusade' against terrorists - CSMonitor.com
https://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0919/p12s2-woeu.html
Sep 19, 2001 - Europe cringes at Bush 'crusade' against terrorists ... President Bush's reference to a "crusade" against terrorism, which passed almost unnoticed by Americans, rang alarm bells in Europe. It raised fears that the ... But his earlier comments, declaring a war between good and evil, shocked Europeans. "If this ...

9/11 George Bush - This Crusade Is Gonna Take A While ( Sept 17 ...
Video for bush crusade comment▶ 1:11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TRVcnX8Vsw
Dec 28, 2013 - Uploaded by 911InvestigationVids
A week after 9/11 81% of Americans are skeptical of the caveman conspiracy and want more evidence that the ...

Now the religious right has a fool in the white house willing to do anything to win praise be told how great he is an trump has no moral compass.
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Soopairik
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Dionysus
Feb 20 2018, 01:43 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Feb 18 2018, 02:08 PM
Dionysus
Feb 18 2018, 01:44 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Feb 18 2018, 10:21 AM
I'm in favour of a so-called Leitkultur which I understand as a set of values that should be encouraged and which foreigners should accept.
Beyond that, I am rather indifferent about the cultural practises of my neighbour as long as they don't conflict with what I understand as core values.
Leitkultur is a German concept, which can be translated as 'guiding culture' or 'leading culture', less literally as 'common culture', 'core culture' or 'basic culture'. The term was first introduced in 1998 by the German-Arab sociologist Bassam Tibi[1] and from 2000 onward the term figured prominently in the national political debate in Germany about national identity and immigration.[citation needed] The term then became associated with a monocultural vision of German society, with ideas of European cultural superiority, and with policies of compulsory cultural assimilation.

Compleeld to be the culture you are living in. Hmmm isn't that what wars are over. Let us make those Arabs accept our white western european god.

We'll have a crusade to kill all those not assimilating to our religion. Or hell we'll make an excuse to bomb Iraq to ashes because we don't like their choice of god.
I don't like what far-righters have done to the term, but I like the original definition of the term by Bassam Tibi (who also doesn't like how xenophobes have hijacked his concept). Bassam Tibi has defined Leitkultur as encompassing the primacy of human reason of divine revelation, democracy, the separation of church and state, pluralism and tolerance. What on Earth does this have to do with bombing Arabs to convert them to Christianity? Not even German far-righters are that stupid (Republicans are a whole different matter though).
Europe cringes at Bush 'crusade' against terrorists - CSMonitor.com
https://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0919/p12s2-woeu.html
Sep 19, 2001 - Europe cringes at Bush 'crusade' against terrorists ... President Bush's reference to a "crusade" against terrorism, which passed almost unnoticed by Americans, rang alarm bells in Europe. It raised fears that the ... But his earlier comments, declaring a war between good and evil, shocked Europeans. "If this ...

9/11 George Bush - This Crusade Is Gonna Take A While ( Sept 17 ...
Video for bush crusade comment▶ 1:11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TRVcnX8Vsw
Dec 28, 2013 - Uploaded by 911InvestigationVids
A week after 9/11 81% of Americans are skeptical of the caveman conspiracy and want more evidence that the ...

Now the religious right has a fool in the white house willing to do anything to win praise be told how great he is an trump has no moral compass.
Was this supposed to prove your point on how the GOP party has gotten worse over the years?
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Jinfengopteryx
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Dionysus
Feb 20 2018, 01:43 PM
Europe cringes at Bush 'crusade' against terrorists - CSMonitor.com
https://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0919/p12s2-woeu.html
Sep 19, 2001 - Europe cringes at Bush 'crusade' against terrorists ... President Bush's reference to a "crusade" against terrorism, which passed almost unnoticed by Americans, rang alarm bells in Europe. It raised fears that the ... But his earlier comments, declaring a war between good and evil, shocked Europeans. "If this ...

9/11 George Bush - This Crusade Is Gonna Take A While ( Sept 17 ...
Video for bush crusade comment▶ 1:11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TRVcnX8Vsw
Dec 28, 2013 - Uploaded by 911InvestigationVids
A week after 9/11 81% of Americans are skeptical of the caveman conspiracy and want more evidence that the ...

Now the religious right has a fool in the white house willing to do anything to win praise be told how great he is an trump has no moral compass.
OK, it looks like you are not interested in any serious discussion and just want to take every opportunity to bash your favourite bogeyman. I hate the GOP and the religious right as well, but I neither try to become their polar opposite, nor am I obsessed with them.
Since there seems to be a lot of consensus against ethnostates here, how about considering an argument for them?
Many of those who favour ethnostates point out that people of different ethnicities just don't get along with each other. Imagine what happened if we accepted the one-state solution for the Israel vs Palestine conflict, for example. From that, they argue that every ethnicity should have a right to have their own country and that such a country should be as homogenous as possible. It is further argued that people naturally show more solidarity towards those inside their own ethnicity (their "in-group") and a multi-cultural state where people have no bond uniting them would hence undermine the founding pillars of any functioning society.
What do you guys think?
Edited by Jinfengopteryx, Mar 1 2018, 09:59 AM.
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Soopairik
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As long as multiple cultures and ethnogroups can live peacefully together, why should there be a different nation for every ethnicity?
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Jinfengopteryx
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The point is, multiculturalism is seen as an obstacle for peaceful coexistence.
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Soopairik
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Jinfengopteryx
Mar 1 2018, 10:17 AM
The point is, multiculturalism is seen as an obstacle for peaceful coexistence.
As long the power ie evenly distributed by population, I don’t see how it would be bad.

Austria Hungary, even without WWI would collapse. Too many ethno groups without any representation, with Austrians and Hungarians controlling everything.
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Delver

I think the melting pot as the salad bowl would inevitably lead to conflict but the melting pot still retains some ethnicity and brings up less conflict.
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Eagle

Jinfengopteryx
Mar 1 2018, 10:17 AM
The point is, multiculturalism is seen as an obstacle for peaceful coexistence.
Only when idiots are too stupid to simply live their lives without being bothered by external cultures.
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Soopairik
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Eagle
Mar 4 2018, 12:12 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Mar 1 2018, 10:17 AM
The point is, multiculturalism is seen as an obstacle for peaceful coexistence.
Only when idiots are too stupid to simply live their lives without being bothered by external cultures.
But what about "bad" cultures? For example, the Aztecs performed heart sacrifice as part of their culture.
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Jinfengopteryx
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Eagle
Mar 4 2018, 12:12 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Mar 1 2018, 10:17 AM
The point is, multiculturalism is seen as an obstacle for peaceful coexistence.
Only when idiots are too stupid to simply live their lives without being bothered by external cultures.
But what if we assume that these "idiots" make up the majority in most cultures and that their behaviour is basic human nature?

People who make such arguments (that multiculturalism destroys societies) often cite the fall of Yugoslavia and the current state of affairs in South Africa as evidence for their claim.

BTW, what examples of societies where multiculturalism works can you guys think of (the examples above are arguably cherry-picked)? I can think of Canada, Sweden (although right-wingers are going to dispute this) and the Roman Empire.
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Soopairik
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Jinfengopteryx
Mar 4 2018, 03:05 PM
Eagle
Mar 4 2018, 12:12 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Mar 1 2018, 10:17 AM
The point is, multiculturalism is seen as an obstacle for peaceful coexistence.
Only when idiots are too stupid to simply live their lives without being bothered by external cultures.
But what if we assume that these "idiots" make up the majority in most cultures and that their behaviour is basic human nature?

People who make such arguments (that multiculturalism destroys societies) often cite the fall of Yugoslavia and the current state of affairs in South Africa as evidence for their claim.

BTW, what examples of societies where multiculturalism works can you guys think of (the examples above are arguably cherry-picked)? I can think of Canada, Sweden (although right-wingers are going to dispute this) and the Roman Empire.
Yugloslavia collapsed because, from my understanding, Tito did not give every culture or group equal rights. He favored some groups over others. If all groups are treated equal, Yugoslavia would've most likely survived. At least Bosnia, Montenegro, and Serbia would stay intact together. I'm not so sure on the others.

And South Africa is in political turmoil, but every country goes through some tough times. I suppose Belgium is an example of multiculturalism working well. It's half Dutch, half French, on opposite sides, and yet it is doing quite well.
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Jinfengopteryx
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Yeah, I've heard that especially the Croats and Slovenes had to finance everyone else (particularly the Serbs) which they didn't like. Blaming such miseries on "multiculturalism" is too monocausal. But even without pluralism, there can be problems with many groups of people living together if there are long running animosities between them (just look at the countless religious feuds throughout history). This is why I am in favour of pressing immigrants to accept a given set of values (like abandoning religious tribalism).
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Soopairik
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Jinfengopteryx
Mar 4 2018, 03:21 PM
Yeah, I've heard that especially the Croats and Slovenes had to finance everyone else (particularly the Serbs) which they didn't like. Blaming such miseries on "multiculturalism" is too monocausal. But even without pluralism, there can be problems with many groups of people living together if there are long running animosities between them (just look at the countless religious feuds throughout history). This is why I am in favour of pressing immigrants to accept a given set of values (like abandoning religious tribalism).
Yes, although religious freedom without turmoil can be seen throughout history, such as in Sierra Leone. Sierra Leone has poor human development, and yet the Muslims and Christians are somehow able to happily co-exist together, even though Muslims outnumber Christians about 4 to 1.
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Jinfengopteryx
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Well, Christians and Muslims are not exactly arch-enemies. Jews and Muslims on the other hand…
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Soopairik
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Jinfengopteryx
Mar 4 2018, 03:27 PM
Well, Christians and Muslims are not exactly arch-enemies. Jews and Muslims on the other hand…
Overall though, there is the potential that multiple cultures can live together, so long as they all get equal representation (possibly based off of population) in the government, as to not overshadow any religious groups. Iraq was on the verge of collapse due to Saddam not giving the other sect of Islam enough representation.
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Jinfengopteryx
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So, you think the best way to make multiculturalism work is through pluralism. How strict do you think states should be towards immigrants? Do you think too strict immigration laws/standards for naturalisation would count as discrimination?
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Soopairik
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Jinfengopteryx
Mar 4 2018, 03:38 PM
So, you think the best way to make multiculturalism work is through pluralism. How strict do you think states should be towards immigrants? Do you think too strict immigration laws/standards for naturalisation would count as discrimination?
Immigration through merit. People who hold more "progressive" jobs like doctors, scientists, or engineers should have higher priority over regular workers.

Also, I do not think immigration with standards would be discrimination. You're not purposely trying to hunt people down, and furthermore, allowing someone to enter your country is sort of a "favor." You don't HAVE to let them in.
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Jinfengopteryx
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I was rather thinking of immigrants who have already lived for a few years in their new country and now need to accept its values.
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Soopairik
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Jinfengopteryx
Mar 4 2018, 03:47 PM
I was rather thinking of immigrants who have already lived for a few years in their new country and now need to accept its values.
Okay? So how do we let them accept the values?
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