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Opinions on Abortion?
Should be legal on request 6 (60%)
Restricted to cases of maternal life, mental health, health, rape, fetal defects, and/or socioeconomic factors 2 (20%)
Restricted to cases of maternal life, mental health, health, rape, and/or fetal defects 0 (0%)
Restricted to cases of maternal life, mental health, health, and/or rape 1 (10%)
Restricted to cases of maternal life, mental health, and/or health 0 (0%)
Restricted to cases of maternal life 0 (0%)
Illegal with no exceptions 1 (10%)
Total Votes: 10
Abortion
Topic Started: Feb 20 2018, 09:59 AM (394 Views)
Soopairik
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What are your views on abortion? Pro choice or Pro life? People who say “pro choice with restrictions” are sometimes more pro life than people who say “pro life with exceptions” so please specify.

Also please say how long do you think a woman can wait to have her abortion.
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Dionysus

I'M MALE NONE OF MY DAMN BUSINESS what women do with their bodies.
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Soopairik
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Dionysus
Feb 20 2018, 01:20 PM
I'M MALE NONE OF MY DAMN BUSINESS what women do with their bodies.
Men may not be able to comment on the woman's rights, but they can comment on the fetus's rights.
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Dionysus

Soopairik
Feb 20 2018, 03:28 PM
Dionysus
Feb 20 2018, 01:20 PM
I'M MALE NONE OF MY DAMN BUSINESS what women do with their bodies.
Men may not be able to comment on the woman's rights, but they can comment on the fetus's rights.
fetus is not a human person no rights are extended. the debate is about religion not rights. until the right wing seized the catholic doctrine not much thought was given abortion. until legal they were had at dire medical risk to females. back alley clothes hanger unsterile abortions killed many young women. do you think a return to those abortions are superior to medically safe as possible abortions?

abortion is a hot button stirs up mentally challenged to react not think. also makes billions of dollars for those selling religion to the dimwitted.
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Soopairik
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So a woman can abort even after 20 weeks according to you, Dion?
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Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan
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I agree with Dionysus. It is not our business.
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Quote:
 
Don't walk on my roof!
- Luke Castellan
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Eagle

Anti-abortion people have an interesting obsession with the fetus. People who are already born can drop dead any time, but don't you dare fuck with the fetus.
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Soopairik
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Eagle
Feb 21 2018, 09:27 AM
Anti-abortion people have an interesting obsession with the fetus. People who are already born can drop dead any time, but don't you dare fuck with the fetus.
They believe it’s murder.
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Jinfengopteryx
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I'm fine with it as long as the foetus has no subjective experience whatsoever.
Edited by Jinfengopteryx, Feb 21 2018, 12:09 PM.
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Soopairik
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Jinfengopteryx
Feb 21 2018, 12:00 PM
I'm fine with it as long as the foetus has no subjective experience whatsoever.
And when do we decide when the fetus becomes too “alive” to kill?
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Dionysus

Soopairik
Feb 21 2018, 12:12 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Feb 21 2018, 12:00 PM
I'm fine with it as long as the foetus has no subjective experience whatsoever.
And when do we decide when the fetus becomes too “alive” to kill?
When it can function out of the woman's body without artificial aid
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Jinfengopteryx
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Soopairik
Feb 21 2018, 12:12 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Feb 21 2018, 12:00 PM
I'm fine with it as long as the foetus has no subjective experience whatsoever.
And when do we decide when the fetus becomes too “alive” to kill?
As I have written, it is when the first "inner light" lightens up. My post was more theoretical than practical and I admit that this moment is very hard to determine from the outside. Whether it has a central nervous system or not is a good criterion.
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Eagle

Soopairik
Feb 21 2018, 10:40 AM
They believe it’s murder.
Then tell them to get the fetus to wash off the disgusting stuff on their underwear from the last time they got aroused by a patriotic speech.
Edited by Eagle, Feb 23 2018, 09:41 AM.
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Soopairik
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Dionysus

Religious belief is not relevant to any laws in the USA. Freedom of religion is inclusive of freedom from religion. If your belief that abortion is murder then do not have an abortion. If you think abortion is a lawful medical procedure do as your consciousness so guides you.
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Cyber

Legal and on request. Now there should, of course, be a cutoff point and there is a debate to be had when exactly that should be. However, I don't think there is much of a question that it should be legal, for example, 2 months in, unless you hold some kind of mind-body dualism view.
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Xanny
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Its the factor of real choice. People get accidentally pregnant all the time and keep it due to their personal choice. If that can happen then the opposite must and should if the person wills itm
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Soopairik
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Xanny
Mar 20 2018, 08:53 AM
Its the factor of real choice. People get accidentally pregnant all the time and keep it due to their personal choice. If that can happen then the opposite must and should if the person wills itm
The problem people have with that is they care about the fetus. One of the main issues I have with pro-life people is not that they hate abortions, but are unwilling to do anything AFTER the baby is born.
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Pocket-Dog
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Abortion is murder. You are terminating what is a human in development, and that's something I find to be morally objectionable.

I can begrudgingly support offering abortion to rape victims, as they did not consent to the sex, and therefore did not consent to motherhood, but that would be my only real exception.

TLDR: If you were impregnated through consensual sex, deal with the consequences of your actions.
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Soopairik
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If the fetus/baby/newborn has a severe birth defect and has no chance of surviving very long once it’s out of the womb, would you still deny the abortion?
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Pocket-Dog
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Deciding which humans deserve to live and which do not, that's a dangerous game to play.

Life expectancy isn't everything, either. Stephen Hawking being a good example of someone who'd greatly exceeded expectations.
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Jinfengopteryx
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Pocket-Dog
Apr 2 2018, 10:04 PM
Abortion is murder. You are terminating what is a human in development, and that's something I find to be morally objectionable.
When you simply don't have sex, don't you also extinguish potential human life?

If my parents aborted me, I wouldn't be here. If they never had sex, exactly the same would hold true.
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Pocket-Dog
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Jinfengopteryx
Apr 3 2018, 06:53 AM
Pocket-Dog
Apr 2 2018, 10:04 PM
Abortion is murder. You are terminating what is a human in development, and that's something I find to be morally objectionable.
When you simply don't have sex, don't you also extinguish potential human life?

If my parents aborted me, I wouldn't be here. If they never had sex, exactly the same would hold true.
You are talking about a scenario in which there is no fetus, versus a scenario in which there is a fetus. I don't think killing a fetus is equivalent to not creating that fetus in the first place.
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Jinfengopteryx
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Pocket-Dog
Apr 3 2018, 07:17 AM
Jinfengopteryx
Apr 3 2018, 06:53 AM
Pocket-Dog
Apr 2 2018, 10:04 PM
Abortion is murder. You are terminating what is a human in development, and that's something I find to be morally objectionable.
When you simply don't have sex, don't you also extinguish potential human life?

If my parents aborted me, I wouldn't be here. If they never had sex, exactly the same would hold true.
You are talking about a scenario in which there is no fetus, versus a scenario in which there is a fetus. I don't think killing a fetus is equivalent to not creating that fetus in the first place.
Assuming the foetus is in its early stage of development with no central nervous system, it has no consciousness, no identity (in the philosophical sense) and no personhood, so the only difference is that we are closer to the creation of a person than we are before having sex, but I fail to see how this makes a moral difference.
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Pocket-Dog
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Jinfengopteryx
Apr 3 2018, 07:30 AM
Pocket-Dog
Apr 3 2018, 07:17 AM
Jinfengopteryx
Apr 3 2018, 06:53 AM
Pocket-Dog
Apr 2 2018, 10:04 PM
Abortion is murder. You are terminating what is a human in development, and that's something I find to be morally objectionable.
When you simply don't have sex, don't you also extinguish potential human life?

If my parents aborted me, I wouldn't be here. If they never had sex, exactly the same would hold true.
You are talking about a scenario in which there is no fetus, versus a scenario in which there is a fetus. I don't think killing a fetus is equivalent to not creating that fetus in the first place.
Assuming the foetus is in its early stage of development with no central nervous system, it has no consciousness, no identity (in the philosophical sense) and no personhood, so the only difference is that we are closer to the creation of a person than we are before having sex, but I fail to see how this makes a moral difference.
The difference being that, in the scenario with the fetus, there is a human life growing within the mother. In scenario B, with no sex whatsoever, there is no such life. In scenario B, you aren't killing anyone/anything, whereas that's exactly what you're doing in scenario A.
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Jinfengopteryx
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Pocket-Dog
Apr 3 2018, 08:06 AM
Jinfengopteryx
Apr 3 2018, 07:30 AM
Pocket-Dog
Apr 3 2018, 07:17 AM
Jinfengopteryx
Apr 3 2018, 06:53 AM
Pocket-Dog
Apr 2 2018, 10:04 PM
Abortion is murder. You are terminating what is a human in development, and that's something I find to be morally objectionable.
When you simply don't have sex, don't you also extinguish potential human life?

If my parents aborted me, I wouldn't be here. If they never had sex, exactly the same would hold true.
You are talking about a scenario in which there is no fetus, versus a scenario in which there is a fetus. I don't think killing a fetus is equivalent to not creating that fetus in the first place.
Assuming the foetus is in its early stage of development with no central nervous system, it has no consciousness, no identity (in the philosophical sense) and no personhood, so the only difference is that we are closer to the creation of a person than we are before having sex, but I fail to see how this makes a moral difference.
The difference being that, in the scenario with the fetus, there is a human life growing within the mother. In scenario B, with no sex whatsoever, there is no such life. In scenario B, you aren't killing anyone/anything, whereas that's exactly what you're doing in scenario A.
I distinguish between "life" in the biological and philosophical sense. "Life" in the biological change is just chemistry which I don't value. "Life" in the philosophical sense is consciousness which I do value.
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Soopairik
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And when does a fetus/baby develop enough consciousness?
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Jinfengopteryx
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Soopairik
Apr 9 2018, 08:39 AM
And when does a fetus/baby develop enough consciousness?
It's not about when it develops "enough". It's about when it develops any at all which should happen when the first brain activity is detected (you could draw the line one month earlier, if you want to be on the safe side).
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Soopairik
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https://www.wired.com/2010/09/the-consciousness-meter-do-we-really-want-that/
Here are some more arguments in favor of abortion. If anyone disagrees, tell me. Most of these were copy pasted from external websites.
1. Since the fetus is entirely dependent on the mother, to abort it would not be “killing” it, but rather ceasing to keep it alive. If someone is dying and desperately needs a blood transfusion, I am under no legal obligation to assist in keeping them alive by giving my own blood. Not even if they are a family member.
2. I know of people who lost their appetite while preggers or were in severe pain. They should be relieved of it. Now some will go "They should have taken better responsibility." Um... THEY ARE TAKING RESPONSIBILITY. By aborting the fetus, they are.
3. A lot of people only care that the fetus is outta the womb. Yay, not their problem anymore. They don't care if the baby soon dies. They just want it out of the womb. That can lead to unhealthiness of the baby. Also, A baby who is the product of rape would probably hate their father or never be able to see him because he was in prison. And the child, when growing up, will be even sadder to know the mother never wanted him/her. No child should have an unhappy childhood.
Edited by Soopairik, May 20 2018, 07:16 PM.
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Jinfengopteryx
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1. Doesn't make much of a moral difference to me. Also, I'm sure a doctor who stops keeping alive a patient without their explicit consent has done something illegal.
2. This is only a sound argument if it has first been established that the worth of a fetus is far lower than what pro-lifers claim (which I agree with for the reasons stated above).
3. The first mostly an ad hominem and doesn't work if the pro-lifer this is directed to does care for people who are already born. The last part sounds more like speculation. Adopted children can have fine childhoods even though many of these problems apply to them, too.
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