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Abortion
Topic Started: Feb 20 2018, 09:59 AM (397 Views)
starman
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One thing that has always bothered me is that it's often deemed OK to terminate a life (abortion, death with dignity) in the name of individual rights, but not in the interest of society. A perfectly normal fetus, who might turn out to be a great researcher, or engineer etc, can be killed if an individual wants it, but society (or the government) can't decide to terminate a fetus that's highly defective and will be a useless, terrible burden.
Edited by starman, May 21 2018, 06:26 AM.
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Soopairik
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starman
May 21 2018, 06:24 AM
One thing that has always bothered me is that it's often deemed OK to terminate a life (abortion, death with dignity) in the name of individual rights, but not in the interest of society. A perfectly normal fetus, who might turn out to be a great researcher, or engineer etc, can be killed if an individual wants it, but society (or the government) can't decide to terminate a fetus that's highly defective and will be a useless, terrible burden.
Abortion should be only between the mother and the doctor. Nobody else should be involved.
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JMD
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Soopairik
May 21 2018, 02:55 PM
starman
May 21 2018, 06:24 AM
One thing that has always bothered me is that it's often deemed OK to terminate a life (abortion, death with dignity) in the name of individual rights, but not in the interest of society. A perfectly normal fetus, who might turn out to be a great researcher, or engineer etc, can be killed if an individual wants it, but society (or the government) can't decide to terminate a fetus that's highly defective and will be a useless, terrible burden.
Abortion should be only between the mother and the doctor. Nobody else should be involved.
Well obviously nobody should be fooling around during the operation.
Everyone is a genius at one thing and an idiot at another.
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Ngc1514

It depends upon the context, don't you think?

Do you consider a fetus a person for the purpose of charging admission to a movie, play, concert, sporting event? Do pregnant women have to pay for two? No? I guess the fetus doesn't count as a person for that.

How about for using the carpool lane? Does a pregnant woman count as two people for that? No? I guess the fetus doesn't count as a person for that, either.

How about hotel rooms that charge for extra people in the room? I guess the fetus doesn't count as a person for that, either.

How about getting a passport?

How about counting population for census purposes?

Is citizenship determined by place of conception or by place of birth?

The above examples, and many more, show how routinely people do not think of the fetus as a person for all sorts of purposes.

For all those purposes, we accord different treatment between being born and being unborn.

Why? Because there's a difference.

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Soopairik
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Ngc1514
Jun 1 2018, 02:00 PM
It depends upon the context, don't you think?

Do you consider a fetus a person for the purpose of charging admission to a movie, play, concert, sporting event? Do pregnant women have to pay for two? No? I guess the fetus doesn't count as a person for that.

How about for using the carpool lane? Does a pregnant woman count as two people for that? No? I guess the fetus doesn't count as a person for that, either.

How about hotel rooms that charge for extra people in the room? I guess the fetus doesn't count as a person for that, either.

How about getting a passport?

How about counting population for census purposes?

Is citizenship determined by place of conception or by place of birth?

The above examples, and many more, show how routinely people do not think of the fetus as a person for all sorts of purposes.

For all those purposes, we accord different treatment between being born and being unborn.

Why? Because there's a difference.

:D Good post, ngc.
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Dionysus

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Apr 2 2018, 10:04 PM
Abortion is murder. You are terminating what is a human in development, and that's something I find to be morally objectionable.

I can begrudgingly support offering abortion to rape victims, as they did not consent to the sex, and therefore did not consent to motherhood, but that would be my only real exception.

TLDR: If you were impregnated through consensual sex, deal with the consequences of your actions.
Read a murder statute dumb ass. Abortion is a medical procedure. Abortion became an issue politically when the republicans adopted the Catholic doctrine in hopes of gaining religious nitwit votes. They did so.
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Soopairik
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Dionysus
Jun 3 2018, 01:54 PM
Pocket-Dog
Apr 2 2018, 10:04 PM
Abortion is murder. You are terminating what is a human in development, and that's something I find to be morally objectionable.

I can begrudgingly support offering abortion to rape victims, as they did not consent to the sex, and therefore did not consent to motherhood, but that would be my only real exception.

TLDR: If you were impregnated through consensual sex, deal with the consequences of your actions.
Read a murder statute dumb ass. Abortion is a medical procedure. Abortion became an issue politically when the republicans adopted the Catholic doctrine in hopes of gaining religious nitwit votes. They did so.
For a long time, up until the 1970’s, most Evangelicals didn’t care about abortion, with some even being pro choice. Even after Roe vs Wade, a lot of Evangelicals didn’t seem to care much.
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Jinfengopteryx
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Soopairik
Jun 3 2018, 06:24 PM
Dionysus
Jun 3 2018, 01:54 PM
Pocket-Dog
Apr 2 2018, 10:04 PM
Abortion is murder. You are terminating what is a human in development, and that's something I find to be morally objectionable.

I can begrudgingly support offering abortion to rape victims, as they did not consent to the sex, and therefore did not consent to motherhood, but that would be my only real exception.

TLDR: If you were impregnated through consensual sex, deal with the consequences of your actions.
Read a murder statute dumb ass. Abortion is a medical procedure. Abortion became an issue politically when the republicans adopted the Catholic doctrine in hopes of gaining religious nitwit votes. They did so.
For a long time, up until the 1970’s, most Evangelicals didn’t care about abortion, with some even being pro choice. Even after Roe vs Wade, a lot of Evangelicals didn’t seem to care much.
While I've heard of this before, do you know what caused the change (especially considering how Evangelicals pride themselves in sticking so much closer to the Bible than everyone else while the Bible has little to say on the topic of abortion)?
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Soopairik
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Jinfengopteryx
Jun 4 2018, 02:47 PM
Soopairik
Jun 3 2018, 06:24 PM
Dionysus
Jun 3 2018, 01:54 PM
Pocket-Dog
Apr 2 2018, 10:04 PM
Abortion is murder. You are terminating what is a human in development, and that's something I find to be morally objectionable.

I can begrudgingly support offering abortion to rape victims, as they did not consent to the sex, and therefore did not consent to motherhood, but that would be my only real exception.

TLDR: If you were impregnated through consensual sex, deal with the consequences of your actions.
Read a murder statute dumb ass. Abortion is a medical procedure. Abortion became an issue politically when the republicans adopted the Catholic doctrine in hopes of gaining religious nitwit votes. They did so.
For a long time, up until the 1970’s, most Evangelicals didn’t care about abortion, with some even being pro choice. Even after Roe vs Wade, a lot of Evangelicals didn’t seem to care much.
While I've heard of this before, do you know what caused the change (especially considering how Evangelicals pride themselves in sticking so much closer to the Bible than everyone else while the Bible has little to say on the topic of abortion)?
https://goplifer.com/2014/03/29/how-protestant-evangelicals-shifted-their-abortion-stance/
JMD
May 21 2018, 03:05 PM
Soopairik
May 21 2018, 02:55 PM
starman
May 21 2018, 06:24 AM
One thing that has always bothered me is that it's often deemed OK to terminate a life (abortion, death with dignity) in the name of individual rights, but not in the interest of society. A perfectly normal fetus, who might turn out to be a great researcher, or engineer etc, can be killed if an individual wants it, but society (or the government) can't decide to terminate a fetus that's highly defective and will be a useless, terrible burden.
Abortion should be only between the mother and the doctor. Nobody else should be involved.
Well obviously nobody should be fooling around during the operation.
So you think it should be allowed under certain situations.
Edited by Soopairik, Jun 5 2018, 05:00 PM.
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JMD
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Soopairik
Jun 4 2018, 03:00 PM
So you think it should be allowed under certain situations.

Ish. I think the only times when it should be allowed is if it's impractical for the woman to give birth, in situations such as:
1. The baby cannot survive outside the womb.
2. The baby has a terminal illness.
My general belief is that if the baby is able to grow up, the woman must proceed to birth.
Edited by JMD, Jun 6 2018, 11:49 AM.
Everyone is a genius at one thing and an idiot at another.
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Soopairik
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Messed up the quoting, dude.
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Ngc1514

JMD
Jun 6 2018, 06:17 AM
Ish. I think the only times when it should be allowed is if it's impractical for the woman to give birth, in situations such as:
1. The baby cannot survive outside the womb.
2. The baby has a terminal illness.
My general belief is that if the baby is able to grow up, the woman must proceed to birth.
And how would this be determined 6 or 8 weeks after conception?
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JMD
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Soopairik
Jun 6 2018, 07:36 AM
Messed up the quoting, dude.
Didn't even notice until now. :D
I'll fix it.
Ngc1514
Jun 6 2018, 08:25 AM
JMD
Jun 6 2018, 06:17 AM
Ish. I think the only times when it should be allowed is if it's impractical for the woman to give birth, in situations such as:
1. The baby cannot survive outside the womb.
2. The baby has a terminal illness.
My general belief is that if the baby is able to grow up, the woman must proceed to birth.
And how would this be determined 6 or 8 weeks after conception?
Isn't that a good question? Well at this point you and I could argue for and against abortion in that particular case and nobody would be morally right or wrong. :D
Edited by JMD, Jun 6 2018, 11:53 AM.
Everyone is a genius at one thing and an idiot at another.
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Soopairik
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JMD
Jun 6 2018, 06:17 AM
Soopairik
Jun 4 2018, 03:00 PM
So you think it should be allowed under certain situations.

Ish. I think the only times when it should be allowed is if it's impractical for the woman to give birth, in situations such as:
1. The baby cannot survive outside the womb.
2. The baby has a terminal illness.
My general belief is that if the baby is able to grow up, the woman must proceed to birth.
So the baby is born. Then what?

Refer to Post 14. What are you going to do now?
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JMD
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Soopairik
Jun 6 2018, 12:18 PM
So the baby is born. Then what?

Refer to Post 14. What are you going to do now?
Then the baby grows up.

Now I am going to say that I looked at post 14.
Everyone is a genius at one thing and an idiot at another.
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Soopairik
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JMD
Jun 6 2018, 12:45 PM
Soopairik
Jun 6 2018, 12:18 PM
So the baby is born. Then what?

Refer to Post 14. What are you going to do now?
Then the baby grows up.

Now I am going to say that I looked at post 14.
The baby can't grow up if the socioeconomic factors aren't right.
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JMD
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Soopairik
Jun 6 2018, 01:11 PM
JMD
Jun 6 2018, 12:45 PM
Soopairik
Jun 6 2018, 12:18 PM
So the baby is born. Then what?

Refer to Post 14. What are you going to do now?
Then the baby grows up.

Now I am going to say that I looked at post 14.
The baby can't grow up if the socioeconomic factors aren't right.
Your point?
Everyone is a genius at one thing and an idiot at another.
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Soopairik
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JMD
Jun 7 2018, 06:19 AM
Soopairik
Jun 6 2018, 01:11 PM
JMD
Jun 6 2018, 12:45 PM
Soopairik
Jun 6 2018, 12:18 PM
So the baby is born. Then what?

Refer to Post 14. What are you going to do now?
Then the baby grows up.

Now I am going to say that I looked at post 14.
The baby can't grow up if the socioeconomic factors aren't right.
Your point?
So you’re just going to let the baby die after it’s born. So much for “pro-life.”
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JMD
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Soopairik
Jun 7 2018, 07:40 AM
JMD
Jun 7 2018, 06:19 AM
Soopairik
Jun 6 2018, 01:11 PM
JMD
Jun 6 2018, 12:45 PM
Soopairik
Jun 6 2018, 12:18 PM
So the baby is born. Then what?

Refer to Post 14. What are you going to do now?
Then the baby grows up.

Now I am going to say that I looked at post 14.
The baby can't grow up if the socioeconomic factors aren't right.
Your point?
So you’re just going to let the baby die after it’s born. So much for “pro-life.”
WTF? I didn't say anything equivalent to that. This sums up my opinion pretty well:
Posted Image
Everyone is a genius at one thing and an idiot at another.
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Makayo
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The Imperial
I’ll be throwing in my two cents here.
Abortion is a very complicated manner as it mainly depends whether the baby would have a good future IMO. However it’s also the mother’s choice, I guess I should know as I’m a failed abortion myself. I’m personally neutral on abortion, as while I do believe we should preserve life, overpopulation will kill this planet.
"Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled."
- Michael Crichton
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JMD
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Quote:
 
I guess I should know as I’m a failed abortion myself.

Wait, really?
Quote:
 
while I do believe we should preserve life, overpopulation will kill this planet.

Maybe China has the right idea of limiting how many children a family can have for the sake of conservation. I'd go along with this idea, as long as it's fines only (not forced abortions) that are imposed for extras.
Edited by JMD, Jun 7 2018, 11:15 AM.
Everyone is a genius at one thing and an idiot at another.
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Soopairik
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JMD
Jun 7 2018, 09:30 AM
Soopairik
Jun 7 2018, 07:40 AM
JMD
Jun 7 2018, 06:19 AM
Soopairik
Jun 6 2018, 01:11 PM
JMD
Jun 6 2018, 12:45 PM

Quoting limited to 5 levels deep
The baby can't grow up if the socioeconomic factors aren't right.
Your point?
So you’re just going to let the baby die after it’s born. So much for “pro-life.”
WTF? I didn't say anything equivalent to that. This sums up my opinion pretty well:
Posted Image
You want the fetus/baby to get outside the womb, but after it does, you’ll just assume it’ll grow up? How are you going to ensure that? You’re acting as if the socioeconomic factors will always be right for the baby to grow up in.
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Ngc1514

Remember the old saying: if men got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.
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Makayo
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The Imperial
JMD
Jun 7 2018, 11:15 AM
Quote:
 
I guess I should know as I’m a failed abortion myself.

Wait, really?
I'm being serious Jacob. I really am a failed abortion.
"Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled."
- Michael Crichton
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Soopairik
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Ngc1514
Jun 7 2018, 12:46 PM
Remember the old saying: if men got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.
That’s only true if only the only pro-lifers are men. But there are also many pro-life women out there.
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JMD
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Soopairik
Jun 7 2018, 11:54 AM
You want the fetus/baby to get outside the womb, but after it does, you’ll just assume it’ll grow up? How are you going to ensure that? You’re acting as if the socioeconomic factors will always be right for the baby to grow up in.
Are you asking, what if a baby is born to a homeless mother?
Ngc1514
Jun 7 2018, 12:46 PM
Remember the old saying: if men got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.
Posted Image
Makayo
Jun 7 2018, 12:52 PM
I'm being serious Jacob. I really am a failed abortion.
Ooof.
Edited by JMD, Jun 7 2018, 01:05 PM.
Everyone is a genius at one thing and an idiot at another.
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Soopairik
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@JMD Yes. Also the point NGC is trying to make is that many pro-life men do not consider the hypothetical scenario - what if they become pregnant? Then would abortion suddenly be okay?
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JMD
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Soopairik
Jun 7 2018, 01:48 PM
@JMD Yes. Also the point NGC is trying to make is that many pro-life men do not consider the hypothetical scenario - what if they become pregnant? Then would abortion suddenly be okay?
Well if the family doesn't have enough resources to raise a child, there is adoption or orphanages.
About NGC's post: I don't see how abortion would be good or bad merely based on which sex gets pregnant.
Everyone is a genius at one thing and an idiot at another.
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Soopairik
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JMD
Jun 7 2018, 02:04 PM
Well if the family doesn't have enough resources to raise a child, there is adoption or orphanages.
Not an option if the area is remote, rural, or poor.
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JMD
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Soopairik
Jun 7 2018, 02:35 PM
JMD
Jun 7 2018, 02:04 PM
Well if the family doesn't have enough resources to raise a child, there is adoption or orphanages.
Not an option if the area is remote, rural, or poor.
Well if it's certainly impossible that the child would have the care it needs to last into adulthood, then I'd be fine with the abortion. But as long as there's a chance that the child could last at least 10 years, don't kill the embryo.
Edited by JMD, Jun 7 2018, 03:03 PM.
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