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Should conscription be compulsory?
There should be no armed forces at all 0 (0%)
No enforced conscription even at war 3 (42.9%)
No enforced conscription except during dire times 3 (42.9%)
Active draft system but not everyone is conscripted 0 (0%)
Conscription should be mandatory with special exceptions 1 (14.3%)
Conscription should be mandatory with no exceptions 0 (0%)
Other 0 (0%)
Total Votes: 7
Military service should be mandatory?
Topic Started: Apr 29 2018, 11:33 AM (157 Views)
Soopairik
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What do you think about conscription in a country? I think there should be no enforced conscription, but I'm still unsure whether conscription should be allowed or not during dire times, such as when the country is in war.
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Jinfengopteryx
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Against it, except if the times are really dire. I'll give a reason when I feel like it.
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Bry89
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I second Jingfeng's statement. Also most countries according to this map don't enforce it anyway but still, it shouldn't be mandatory no matter the situation I mean, there are overly neurotic people out there that would rather slit their wrists than fight for their country.
Fight, in this world of aggression.
Fight, in this world of deceit.
Fight, in this war of oppression.
Fight, let the killing proceed.
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Soopairik
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Well it doesn’t seem like my country needs to draft anyway considering how many volunteers we have
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Jinfengopteryx
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As for my problems with it, basically, it is coercing people into war and unless the country's survival depends on it, I don't want to take such measures. Also, sustaining such a large military costs money (I am no big fan of militarism in general) and if it is only for men, it is incredibly sexist. I don't think even the most conservative people would accept forcefully training young women to become perfect housewives.
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Soopairik
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Jinfengopteryx
Apr 30 2018, 09:07 AM
As for my problems with it, basically, it is coercing people into war and unless the country's survival depends on it, I don't want to take such measures. Also, sustaining such a large military costs money (I am no big fan of militarism in general) and if it is only for men, it is incredibly sexist. I don't think even the most conservative people would accept forcefully training young women to become perfect housewives.
A popular argument is that conscription is slavery and taxation is robbery. Why do you think people then are fine with conscription but hate high taxes?
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Kyng
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Only during dire times, I would say. At that point, it's pretty much required to stop the entire nation (and its legal system) from collapsing.

However, I'm really not in favour of conscription during peacetime. National service is great for some people - but, for others, it's completely soul-destroying. Most of the countries that theoretically retain compulsory military service understand this - and so, they either don't enforce it; make it very easy to get exceptions (e.g. on medical grounds); or offer 'civilian service' (e.g. working on national parks) as an alternative.
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Jinfengopteryx
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Soopairik
Apr 30 2018, 09:11 AM
Jinfengopteryx
Apr 30 2018, 09:07 AM
As for my problems with it, basically, it is coercing people into war and unless the country's survival depends on it, I don't want to take such measures. Also, sustaining such a large military costs money (I am no big fan of militarism in general) and if it is only for men, it is incredibly sexist. I don't think even the most conservative people would accept forcefully training young women to become perfect housewives.
A popular argument is that conscription is slavery and taxation is robbery. Why do you think people then are fine with conscription but hate high taxes?
Is the "taxes are theft" crowd really OK with conscription?

Speaking of the people who are only against high taxes, maybe they are not against them because they think it is immoral for the government to force you to do stuff, but because they think too high taxes would destroy the economy.
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Soopairik
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Jinfengopteryx
Apr 30 2018, 01:24 PM
Is the "taxes are theft" crowd really OK with conscription?
Those who want conscription are generally more conservative, and conservatives usually prefer lower taxes.
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Pliosaurus

I would say no because no one should be force to do some thing that could get them hurt or killed
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Jinfengopteryx
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Soopairik
Apr 30 2018, 02:51 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Apr 30 2018, 01:24 PM
Is the "taxes are theft" crowd really OK with conscription?
Those who want conscription are generally more conservative, and conservatives usually prefer lower taxes.
Yeah, but conservatives want low taxes, not no taxes at all (that's anarcho-capitalists). If they believed taxes were theft, they would surely not be OK with just a little bit theft. So in their case, it is probably because they think low taxes for the rich are going to benefit us all (you know, trickle-down economics and all).
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Soopairik
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Do you guys think mandatory military conscription is slavery?
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JMD
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Soopairik
Jun 11 2018, 09:22 AM
Do you guys think mandatory military conscription is slavery?
No, but it is unfair.
Everyone is a genius at one thing and an idiot at another.
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Soopairik
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JMD
Jun 11 2018, 12:31 PM
Soopairik
Jun 11 2018, 09:22 AM
Do you guys think mandatory military conscription is slavery?
No, but it is unfair.
How is it not? You’re forced with no pay into doing some manual work.
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Jinfengopteryx
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Soopairik
Jun 11 2018, 01:04 PM
JMD
Jun 11 2018, 12:31 PM
Soopairik
Jun 11 2018, 09:22 AM
Do you guys think mandatory military conscription is slavery?
No, but it is unfair.
How is it not? You’re forced with no pay into doing some manual work.
Depends on how you define slavery. "Slavery" usually means that you are someone's property which you aren't in the case of the military draft.
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Ngc1514

How about changing the wording from military to public service? We have gone to an all volunteer military, but I see nothing horrible about a year or two of public service between high school and college. No, it’s not slavery since you would receive a stipend along with room and board. Is there something so awful about giving up a couple of years to the nation and it’s citizens?
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Bry89
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I'm going to say "no" in the subject because anything "military" would just stress anybody out, and it wouldn't be fair for those that have disabilities whether mental or physical. If it was mandatory, at least make it so that people like myself are exempt from it, like for voting.
Fight, in this world of aggression.
Fight, in this world of deceit.
Fight, in this war of oppression.
Fight, let the killing proceed.
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starman
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Ngc1514
Jun 13 2018, 05:38 AM
How about changing the wording from military to public service? We have gone to an all volunteer military, but I see nothing horrible about a year or two of public service between high school and college. No, it’s not slavery since you would receive a stipend along with room and board. Is there something so awful about giving up a couple of years to the nation and it’s citizens?


I think national service would be a good idea. It could be anything from military service to environmental work. This society suffers from lack of identification with a bigger whole (and its needs) this would help remedy that.
Edited by starman, Jun 19 2018, 09:34 AM.
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MegaphoneStallone
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Jinfengopteryx
Jun 11 2018, 01:07 PM
Soopairik
Jun 11 2018, 01:04 PM
JMD
Jun 11 2018, 12:31 PM
Soopairik
Jun 11 2018, 09:22 AM
Do you guys think mandatory military conscription is slavery?
No, but it is unfair.
How is it not? You’re forced with no pay into doing some manual work.
Depends on how you define slavery. "Slavery" usually means that you are someone's property which you aren't in the case of the military draft.
WTF are you on about? Your life, person and well-being becomes the property of the state for a time!

My answer is that there should be NO enforced conscription!
Some of us aren't interested in being pawns/robots.
Edited by MegaphoneStallone, Jun 18 2018, 04:25 AM.
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Jinfengopteryx
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MegaphoneStallone
Jun 18 2018, 04:24 AM
Jinfengopteryx
Jun 11 2018, 01:07 PM
Depends on how you define slavery. "Slavery" usually means that you are someone's property which you aren't in the case of the military draft.
WTF are you on about? Your life, person and well-being becomes the property of the state for a time!
Slavery is one human being can claim ownership of another the same way they own their house or their car. While the military draft sucks, you are still legally a human and not a thing. But if as I've hinted in my post, the word "slavery" has several definitions. It is often more loosely used for "forced labor" which conscription certainly is.
MegaphoneStallone
Jun 18 2018, 04:24 AM
My answer is that there should be NO enforced conscription!
Some of us aren't interested in being pawns/robots.
Agreed with that.
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earthling

I am for mandatory conscription, in part because I am against war and believe war becomes too easy when it is too cheap, and most of us pay no corporeal price for it. War is a lot less attractive when it might cost you your own flesh and blood.

I also think it's an obvious good for national security to have so many men already trained, should we ever need them. Historically, being ready is one of the very best ways to avoid war; weakness and unpreparedness is the surest way to ensure that war will come.

This sort of service also provides a way for people from all levels of society, from all backgrounds from the ghettos to the suburbs, to mix and work together, to inspire and form life-long friendships with each other. I often wonder what chance does some poor fatherless inner-city boy have--with no role models, surrounded by people who have only ever lived on public assistance, whose heroes sell drugs or run gangs for a living--to break out of this, to see a better way?

Not to mention all the practical jobs and training and skills this experience exposes young men to, plus the opportunity to bond in group efforts, focus, and see the rewards of cooperating to meet a goal.

Last, countries are created--their very most fundamental purpose--as a way to ensure the collective defense. That is, if you read the classic thinkers, free people create governments as a way of pooling their collective resources, to protect their individual lives, liberty, and property from invaders, violence, and crime. We pay for this by each contributing a portion of our liberty or money, to protect and secure the rest. That is, we have to sacrifice a small part of our freedom, or risk losing the rest.

As far as it being slavery, I don't see how conscription is any different from having to work for one's bread and shelter, then having some of that taken from you as 'taxes.' Either way, you're still spending part of your time in involuntary service to the State. But at least conscription ends; taxes never do.

So, I think conscription provides a number of benefits, at least in the United States. That might not be true in other countries. Conscription could be used in a police state for ill-purposes. But here in the U.S. I think there's little danger of that, and the balance is strongly positive.
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Jinfengopteryx
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earthling
Jun 22 2018, 04:47 AM
I am for mandatory conscription, in part because I am against war and believe war becomes too easy when it is too cheap, and most of us pay no corporeal price for it. War is a lot less attractive when it might cost you your own flesh and blood.
Is there any evidence for this? If you look at the global peace index, you don't see much of a correlation between the presence of a military draft and the peacefulness of the country. If you have strong anti-war attitudes in the country, it could in fact lead to the end of the military draft because no-one wants to participate anymore. That's what happened in Germany.
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earthling

Jinfengopteryx
Jun 22 2018, 08:31 AM
earthling
Jun 22 2018, 04:47 AM
I am for mandatory conscription, in part because I am against war and believe war becomes too easy when it is too cheap, and most of us pay no corporeal price for it. War is a lot less attractive when it might cost you your own flesh and blood.
Is there any evidence for this? If you look at the global peace index, you don't see much of a correlation between the presence of a military draft and the peacefulness of the country. If you have strong anti-war attitudes in the country, it could in fact lead to the end of the military draft because no-one wants to participate anymore. That's what happened in Germany.
In the U.S. it seems that we have gotten more and more complacent about war, now that most of us don't have to fight it. Now the majority live normally in peace and security while a small group fights somewhere far away.

I worry about Germany's current direction. Prior to the U.S. occupation, in times of local unrest Germany's great thinkers kept bringing us world wars and extreme political philosophies which, for some unexplained reason, their population sometimes embraced. I wonder if, without the long U.S. presence, Germany would have gone back to her historical pattern?

Taking in large numbers of people whose political beliefs have produced war in their own countries (for centuries), would not seem to help.

I spoke to a couple of German citizens yesterday. They're worried too.
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JMD
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Jinfengopteryx
Jun 22 2018, 08:31 AM
If you look at the global peace index, you don't see much of a correlation between the presence of a military draft and the peacefulness of the country.
Unless you're Switzerland. If I was Swiss I wouldn't mind conscription in my country, because you'd never have to fight anyway. :D
Though I still think mandatory conscription shouldn't be a thing everywhere else unless you desperately need help fighting another country.
Everyone is a genius at one thing and an idiot at another.
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Jinfengopteryx
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earthling
Jun 28 2018, 08:34 AM
I worry about Germany's current direction. Prior to the U.S. occupation, in times of local unrest Germany's great thinkers kept bringing us world wars and extreme political philosophies which, for some unexplained reason, their population sometimes embraced. I wonder if, without the long U.S. presence, Germany would have gone back to her historical pattern?
Germany had a military draft prior to WWI and WWII though. The rest is interesting, but irrelevant to the topic at hand.

JMD
Jun 28 2018, 08:46 AM
Jinfengopteryx
Jun 22 2018, 08:31 AM
If you look at the global peace index, you don't see much of a correlation between the presence of a military draft and the peacefulness of the country.
Unless you're Switzerland. If I was Swiss I wouldn't mind conscription in my country, because you'd never have to fight anyway. :D
I'm fully aware of that which is why I said "not much of a correlation" instead of "a negative correlation".
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