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Is taxation theft?
Topic Started: Jun 11 2018, 09:21 AM (47 Views)
Soopairik
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_as_theft

Personally though I don’t think so. That money you “earned” was never yours to begin with, and furthermore the definition of theft is “the action/crime of stealing.” As the govt decides what is considered a crime, they can conclude taxation is not theft.
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JMD
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Yeah, probably not.
Everyone is a genius at one thing and an idiot at another.
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Jinfengopteryx
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I think "taxes are theft" is supposed to be a moral argument and not a legal argument. If it is a legal argument, what Soop said.

If it is supposed to be a moral argument:
How do we define "theft"?. If you define theft as "taking something from a person regardless of their consent", sure, taxes are theft.
However, this definition is not very meaningful. What if I stole something from someone and they took it back? Or I picked up a random rock and someone took it from me? Maybe we also need a concept of property.
How about "taking a person's property regardless of their consent"?
Who makes the property laws? The state. The same "Men with guns" who will stand in front of your house if you don't pay your taxes will stand in front of your house when someone invades it. And it is trivially easy for the government to say "this part of your money is yours, this part is ours" without it being theft. Hence, taxation is, at best, expropriation. Of course, expropriation can be wrong, but I don't think the very concept of taxation is.
And even if taxation was theft, that does not make it morally wrong, as this article explains:
http://www.lesswrong.com/posts/yCWPkLi8wJvewPbEp/the-noncentral-fallacy-the-worst-argument-in-the-world
Saying "taxes are theft" categorises an action, but without any comment on the harm and benefits it causes, it is by itself no moral judgement.
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earthling

Soopairik
Jun 11 2018, 09:21 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_as_theft

Personally though I don’t think so. That money you “earned” was never yours to begin with, and furthermore the definition of theft is “the action/crime of stealing.” As the govt decides what is considered a crime, they can conclude taxation is not theft.
"That money you “earned” was never yours to begin with"

What you're saying is that if you hoe a garden and raise a crop, the crop doesn't belong to you, and that others who didn't help with the labor or expense have just as much a right to it.

That's scary.


"As the govt decides what is considered a crime, they can conclude taxation is not theft."

In that case, a government 'deciding' it was okay to kill Indians or gas Jews, or to own black people, would be enough to convince you that these were moral, healthy for society, and not crimes?

Legitimate taxation for public projects is definitely not theft, such as taxation to pay for a national highway--that benefits the whole nation. That's 'everyone pitching in for a national good.' But taxation definitely can be considered 'theft' if the purpose is to take one person's money simply because he has it, and give that money to someone else simply because he did not have as much. That latter is the same thing a robber is doing, just with more bureaucrats in the middle.
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JMD
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earthling
Jun 14 2018, 04:49 AM
In that case, a government 'deciding' it was okay to kill Indians or gas Jews, or to own black people, would be enough to convince you that these were moral, healthy for society, and not crimes?
OOOF
Everyone is a genius at one thing and an idiot at another.
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Soopairik
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JMD
Jun 14 2018, 07:38 AM
earthling
Jun 14 2018, 04:49 AM
In that case, a government 'deciding' it was okay to kill Indians or gas Jews, or to own black people, would be enough to convince you that these were moral, healthy for society, and not crimes?
OOOF
Legally speaking, yes. Morally speaking, for me, no.
Edited by Soopairik, Jun 14 2018, 12:02 PM.
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earthling

Soopairik
Jun 14 2018, 09:30 AM
JMD
Jun 14 2018, 07:38 AM
earthling
Jun 14 2018, 04:49 AM
In that case, a government 'deciding' it was okay to kill Indians or gas Jews, or to own black people, would be enough to convince you that these were moral, healthy for society, and not crimes?
OOOF
No, because I have my own set of morals. And there is a line I draw.
But you already ceded your right to draw that line, when you said the government gets to decide.
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Soopairik
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Edited previous post.
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