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| February 06th, 2008: Adult Swim - Traitor? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 25 2008, 12:03 AM (3,264 Views) | |
| Nick | Feb 25 2008, 12:03 AM Post #1 |
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Founder and Major Domo
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Face it, Toonami's gotten a bit weak in the knees as of late. For a while we had Adult Swim around to carry the banner of action animation, but now they seem to have deserted. What do you think? http://www.toonamifan.com/toonamiadultswimtraitor.html |
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| Soul | Feb 25 2008, 02:16 AM Post #2 |
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Novice
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Now my opinion is well face it? Can you honestly blame Williams Street as a Television network? Well the fact is, yeah Williams Street is the house that Toonami built. But yeah as a network, time and time again adult swim has given anime a chance;and depending on the show, so well it always depends on the viewership. Toonami itself has had that problem over the years when it ran weekdays. Some shows clicks some don't. BUT where Williams Street soared with Toonami, they fail with [as] ACTN. ADVERTSING! Maybe they've just gotten lazy, but does it matter? We just need to hope that viewership raises and that they acquire more mature anime programing. |
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| Nick | Feb 25 2008, 03:16 PM Post #3 |
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Founder and Major Domo
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I don't think that's it - I mean, they've had a lot of mature programming in the past: GitS, Blood+, Bebop, Champloo, Witch Hunter Robin... But what you said about advertising is definitely what I believe. Even when they ran promos, they never had a coherent 'face' for ASA. There wasn't a theme, really, or a definable style. (Which Toonami *did* have.) |
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| macattack | Feb 25 2008, 03:27 PM Post #4 |
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Watch Your Head.
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I once said that since CN doesn't seem to care about Toonami anymore, Adult Swim should just port the Toonami franchise to AS. ASA's lack of theme and promos is kind of telling that AS doesn't seem to know what to do with their action properties. But if they had a cohesive Toonami-like theme . . . then maybe Adult Swim would be more determined to promote their action side and add new properties. "Code Geass . . . Only Toonami on Adult Swim." I can actually picture Peter Cullen saying that. |
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| Soul | Feb 25 2008, 06:06 PM Post #5 |
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Novice
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Well yeah, they still advertise and run promos. Just ... what 3 to 5 weeks after a show has premiered? ( I'm looking at you Death Note) |
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| Sketch | Feb 26 2008, 12:54 AM Post #6 |
Crewer
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In one sense I'd say AS is no less a traitor to the Toonami ideal than CN has made Toonami out to be at this point but unlike the Toonami crew, WS has the power to keep the Toonami dream alive. But it will always take backseat to the comedy programing. They could be doing so much more. At least advertisement wise. But it's not really their fault that the more common anime viewers aren't even in their demographic. And that is the true challenge they must overcome to make their anime successful. Even so, they mock their anime fans rather than support them and compared to how Toonami put action animation in the spotlight they're methods for airing aciton animation are subpar and an embarrasment to any legacy WS has. |
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| Jeff Harris | Feb 27 2008, 03:18 PM Post #7 |
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Webmaster, The X Bridge
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I think the term "traitor" when it comes to talking about ACTN is a bit harsh. If anything, both Toonami and ACTN were soldiers in the same army but with different orders from their commander, in this case, Cartoon Network. Toonami went for the kids. ACTN went for the teens (unofficially) and the adults (officially). Both served under the same generals, in this case, Sean and Jason, two blokes that truly dig and respect action animation in all its forms. However, both Toonami and ACTN's mission objectives changed as the battle went on. At times, they crossed paths on the battlefield. Both wanted the same weapons (shows like Rurouni Kenshin, InuYasha, The Big O, Naruto, and Bleach). Both wanted the same opponents. But something happened. The Commander changed the objectives. They limited how long and how far they could fight, which seriously limited their strategies, and what weapons they could use. In Toonami's case, what they could do was seriously limited. Their fighting range was decreased dramatically and they didn't have enough weapons to fight with. In ACTN's case, just as they thought they were advancing, other soldiers of a more comedic nature from the same unit that were already spread out throughout the battlefield came into their fighting space. Toonami and ACTN are two soldiers fighting the same battle. It's the commander that's betraying both of them. |
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| Nick | Feb 27 2008, 04:58 PM Post #8 |
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Founder and Major Domo
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Interesting point of view, Jeff, but if that's the case, how do you explain AS's weak handling and apparently low opinion of action animation from the get-go? Their initial prerogatives might have been the same as Toonami's, but it seems to me that AS rather quickly decided to throw their money towards the more secure popularity of the comedy blocks. |
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| Jeff Harris | Feb 27 2008, 06:49 PM Post #9 |
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Webmaster, The X Bridge
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The thing about Adult Swim and action programming is that action was NEVER a priority until they realized they could earn a lot of ad revenue from it as well as build future business relationships. Cowboy Bebop wasn't even supposed to be on Adult Swim. Interestingly enough, it almost made it on Toonami, but Cartoon Network felt it was a little too adult for Toonami, though they did eventually premiere the series in the slot then home to Toonami Midnight Run. Cartoon Network used Adult Swim to get "edgier" properties that wouldn't easily fit on Toonami on the lineup. When Cartoon Network did launch ACTN on Saturday nights in February, it basically cemented Adult Swim's reputation as an action block as well as a comedy block. Then, of course, came the nightly expansion. The end of Toonami Midnight Run allowed ACTN to expand and giving the Toonami folks another atmosphere to work with. And while comedy was the cornerstone of Adult Swim, action had a place. And for a while, it seemed like action was Saturdays-only and comedy was Sundays-only. Then, the stupid period took place. You know, when Cartoon Network got stupid (around the time they separated the Adult Swim block from Cartoon Network). The Big O invaded Sunday nights. Comedies interrupted the flow of action on Saturday nights. The comedy culture took over because, unlike the action properties, Cartoon Network/Adult Swim has a vested interest in nearly all comedy properties with the exception of the Fox shows and The Boondocks, though there's a slight interest in those properties as well. In essence, it's about profits, and the comedy shows earn more than the action shows because they own all or a part of them. That's the reason you see more comedy shows than action shows on Adult Swim. They don't lose so much with Aqua Teen Hunger Force, Frisky Dingo, Robot Chicken, or the other originals as they would with acquisitions like Bleach, InuYasha, Blood +Death Note, or even Astro Boy. It sucks, but that's the nature of the beast. |
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| Robert | Mar 1 2008, 12:14 PM Post #10 |
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Clyde
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Jeff makes a good point but it seems that ACTN has more freedom than Toonami and The Commander is just fine with that. |
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| Sketch | Mar 7 2008, 06:25 AM Post #11 |
Crewer
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Well it did. But now I'd question that given the latest schedule update. According to the schedule starting next Monday the only anime on Adult Swim will be a total of 13 hours a week. Most of which is at 5AM. And cutting otu Shin Chan (which is comedy) that leaves action/drama with 12 hours a week. That's less than a days worth in a whole week. Here's what's left. Monday - Thursday 5:00 AM - Inuyasha 5:30 AM - Astroboy (soon to be Inuyasha) Friday 12:30 AM - Shin Chan (soon to be new episodes) 01:00 AM - Fullmetal Alchemist 01:30 AM - Ghost in the Shell 03:30 AM - Repeat 1.5 hours 05:00 AM - Inuyasha Hour Saturday 12:30 AM - Death Note (new) 01:00 AM - Bleach (new) 01:30 AM - Blood+ (new) (soon to be Bebop reruns then new Code Geass in April) 03:30 AM - Repeat 1.5 hours 05:00 AM - Inuyasha Hour Sunday 05:00 AM - Inuyasha Hour So basically... 7 hours of Inuyasha (14 episodes a week) and 5 hours of other action shows. 12 hours. What is with CN and pushing away aciton shows? The only ones they air on weekdays are Code LYOKO (6AM), Storm Hawks (6:30AM/10:30PM), Pokemon (7AM/3PM) and Ben 10 (3:30PM). 4 shows. 2 repeat in the day. Toonami needs to be back in the saddle pronto. Jeff's theory that TBS could take Adult Swim is seeming all the more likely though they're not going to be willing to take some of the odder comedies much less Shin Chan and action will be out luck but maybe TNT could run the MA stuff (what's left of it) and CN could keep the rest for their own late-night block (hopefully targeted at 12-24). Ah who am I kidding... they'll just hang the action shows out to dry. At this point I would have to say without a shadow of a doubt that Adult Swim is being a traitor to what Williams Street once stood for. |
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| Soul | Mar 9 2008, 12:47 PM Post #12 |
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Novice
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On the [adult swim] message boards, the user known as "somedude248" post a thread and it's something I think we all should read. Vindiciation is a beautiful thing. After years and years of complaining about how Adult Swim Action was going down the tubes and basically being called a troll for my accusations while the other members of Action Discussion blissfully wasted their time with threads like "What happen when Kagome dad call cops" and "AS hotness," I am finally proven right. Code Geass, the only new announced show for 2008, is set to premiere at 1:30 in the morning on a Saturday. You'd have more viewers for a Total Gym informerical. There is a measly one hour for new acquistions twice a week. Mon-Fri is an ALL COMEDY ZONE. How did things get this bad, when it seems that other networks are actually doing well with bits and pieces of anime? Once upon a time, Full Metal Alchemist got Futurama level ratings and was mentioned on the OC on Fox. Now we are left with this. Well, the reasons are threefold, although one directly leads into the other, leading into the other. Reason 1- The shows. That's the big thing, isn't it? It's not that "Anime is a niche," it's "Kim Manning picked up shows for a niche audience when she should have picked up crowd pleasers." The shows she picked up weren't great, they were cult, niche shows that barely broke even on DVD sales, things that never should have aired on television if a responsible executive was in charge. Eureka 7 and Paranoia Agent? What kind of person watches that outside of a hardcore fan that would prefer it subtitled? Hmm? Certainly not the average AS viewer. They want Ikkitousen, they want Gantz, they want Berserk, they want that ultraviolence and boobfest anime. And you can sprinkle in something in there, but not a zero-appeal cult show. Reason 2- Oversaturation. What happens when a show fails? You show it over and over and over one episode at a time one week at a time. Maybe then someone will watch, right? Wrong. Reason 3- Lack of advertising. People won't watch unless they like the cult niche show. And if we get a new show, only that same audience will watch, right? (Wrong). So who needs ads? Congratulations Kim Manning. You've created a spiraling cone of ignorance with diminishing returns each and every year. And every time a show came that could have appealed to a casual audience appeared, you turned it down in favor of something not for adults, or not for the mainstream audience. And now you reap what you sow. -------------------- My thoughts? See in terms of ultra violence and fan service, a majority of anime fans think that it gives anime a bad name to the general American public. But face it, I won't lie. I'd kill to see Beserk run on [as]. Why can't they air it!? Come on people! It's ADULT SWIM For ADULTS ONLY! All Kids,..get the f*** outta've the pool! [as] has no reason not to air hardcore ACTION anime. Remember back in the days of Toonami? Williams Street and the old Toonami motto of "bringing the greatest action cartoons in one place"? Well why the f*** can't [adult swim] take up that mantle!? For bringing the "Greatest action cartoons [for a mature audience] all in one place" We need it. We demand it. |
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| Zipper | Mar 10 2008, 05:31 AM Post #13 |
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Revolutionary
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This is probably one of the truer statements I've read about this subject. While 90% of the shows that have aired on Adult Swim I've greatly enjoyed, they just aren't the type of series that would have any kind of mass appeal. It's unfortunate because of lot of these "niche" shows much better than most which would hold "mass appeal" (read: Inuyasha). They started off great with the debut of the action block on Saturday nights, with Yu Yu Hakusho, Gundam 0083, Cowboy Bebop, Outlaw Star (though maybe they should have aired an unedited version instead of the cut-for-Toonami version), etc. These are shows with lots of fast-paced action and simple plots. Then they started to go for shows like Witch Hunter Robin and Paranoia Agent, and I began to question just what in the hell they were thinking. It's great that they wanted to give these shows a shot, and I'm sure it pleased a fair amount of people, but I'm sure it bored-to-tears and weirded out twice as many people who probably wanted to watch some more "normal." Now, I enjoyed these shows, but as one would probably guess, I'm one of those who would prefer to watch shows on DVD and subbed, and so I had no reason to watch the TV broadcast. If AS wants to be successful in the anime department, then they don't want to target people like me in their demographic. Unfortunately, targeting a wider demographic means greatly limiting the types of series they air. So once again, as already said, this will mean lots of blood, action, explosions, and boobs. This will turn many people away but I'm sure it will bring in twice as many more. Maybe even someone like me will tune in, depending on what kind of show it is, because I most likely won't bother to spend my actual money to see it uncut and subbed anyway. And they most certainly need to advertise more. AS Action is in the same rut Toonami is in right now, although maybe not in as much imminent danger. Perhaps they should revamp the block, because to me it's utterly retarded right now. The bumpers consist of still shots of random places in a city or something. Boring. Make it more interesting. Bring in more of that Williams Street style (and not the weird crap that they do on AS Comedy). Just like Toonami, AS Action can be saved as well. Oh, and Berserk is awesome. One of my favorites. |
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| billyarnie | Mar 31 2008, 01:22 PM Post #14 |
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3... TOM 3!
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I will e-mail Nick about something similar soon & if he affirms it, you may see an article by Bill AKA billyarnie. I have known it for a while & a lot of you have known it too in your heart of hearts as well. However, when I watched the last 30 minutes of "Aqua Teen Hunger Force Colon Movie Film for Theatres" early this morning to see something rumored to be after the credits (now I wish I hadn't); I paid my money to see ATHFCMFFT a week or 2 ago after its premiere & left when the heavy metal closing theme & credits started. This morning, just before the bitter end, I saw the Very Last Credit: © 2007 The Cartoon Network, Inc. A Time Warner Company. All Rights Reserved. Still confused? Here's more from before the Very Last Credit: Cartoon Network is the author of this motion picture for copyright and other laws. Turner can say all it wants that Adult Swim is a "sister network that shares channel space with Cartoon Network". The Truth Is: [adult swim] is a Late-Night Block on Cartoon Network. I not only agree with Jeff Harris, but I take it 1 Step Further: Adult Swim did not betray Toonami. Cartoon Network used [adult swim] & now is turning on it. The Comedy soldiers think they are warring against Action AKA Anime, but they are already turning on each other & Cartoon Network doesn't care. If ACTN AKA Anime does die on [adult swim], the fans of various Comedy shows will turn on each other to have something else to hate. It's the nature of the interwebs; at least the younger & less mature part of it. By the way, I now equate Cartoon Network with Turner & ultimately with Time Warner. The problem is the Corporate Suits are now in charge & have been. Either Mike N. Lazzo has become a Suit or he is being controlled by the Suits AKA his Corporate Bosses. Even though he is the Executive Sr. Vice-President of [adult swim], he doesn't care anymore or if he does, he no longer has authority to make his own decisions. I don't know if Mike Lazzo is in charge of Williams Street overall, or just the [adult swim] side of the house, & I don't know how much influence Sean Akins & Jason DeMarco have over Toonami anymore. Maybe they still control the packaging, but the content & scheduling seems to be left to Lazzo or his controllers at Cartoon Network. |
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| The History Follower | Apr 3 2008, 09:46 PM Post #15 |
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Crewer
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What animes aren't 'niche shows'? And don't blame a lack of DVD sales on a show being a niche shows, you got to factor in all the people who just download their anime instead of supporting the industry. So this guy wants to reduce anime on Adult Swim to chep action and cheap fanservice. That's kind of sad. I prefer to pick my shows on good story and intense action not just how much blood it has and how many boobs I can see. So what was the response to this guy's post? |
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| Nick | Apr 3 2008, 10:08 PM Post #16 |
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Founder and Major Domo
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Anime is about as niche as it gets, isn't it? The only ones that come close to being more suited for general audiences are Miyazaki films (not for the AS crowd, though), Cowboy Bebop, maybe some of the legendary films like Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Vampire Hunter D... |
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| The History Follower | Apr 4 2008, 11:00 AM Post #17 |
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Crewer
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How are those also not niche? |
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| Nick | Apr 4 2008, 11:05 AM Post #18 |
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Founder and Major Domo
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Er...they actually gained some traction in the general sci-fi and animation crowds? Bebop actually was popular with non-otaku high schoolers for a while. |
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| The History Follower | Apr 4 2008, 11:16 AM Post #19 |
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Crewer
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When did sci-fi and animation crowds, except for children, become mainstream and their shows not considered niche? |
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| Nick | Apr 4 2008, 11:18 AM Post #20 |
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Founder and Major Domo
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Well if you want to define terms that way then the argument has no point. Sure, they're still niche compared to, I dunno, Pirates of the Caribbean or something, but they definitely got deeper market penetration than any other animes in recent years. That qualifies them for, er, 'relatively non-niche' in my book. |
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| macattack | Apr 4 2008, 11:46 AM Post #21 |
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Watch Your Head.
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I think Fullmetal Aclhemist got a lot of market penetration in itself too. |
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| macattack | Sep 11 2008, 05:17 PM Post #22 |
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Watch Your Head.
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I suppose the question of AS having turned traitor or not has been answered. |
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| billyarnie | Sep 11 2008, 09:31 PM Post #23 |
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3... TOM 3!
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Unfortunately, I agree. 1 hour of anime to start the 3-hour block, & 2 premiering series on the "Graveyard Shift"?! I can't blame Cartoon Network for [adult swim]'s screwups, but it doesn't look good for Toonami either. Naruto only has 25 episodes left & no word on if or when CN starts Shippuden AKA Hurricane Chronicles. |
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| jayngfet | Sep 12 2008, 12:42 PM Post #24 |
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Revolutionary
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I thought it was announced at a con? But I could be wrong. |
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| billyarnie | Sep 13 2008, 06:15 PM Post #25 |
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3... TOM 3!
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According to macattack, the license for the Shippuden anime was announced at Anime Expo in L.A. No TV deal has been announced yet... if Gundam 00 wound up on Sci Fi & not Toonami or [adult swim], don't assume Naruto Shippuden makes it to Toonami... or even [as]... |
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