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Yukonian Cartography and History Act
Topic Started: Jan 22 2015, 04:43 PM (266 Views)
Arcadia
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Preamble
This Act is intended as a means of regulating the regional map of Yukon and defining how claims, expansion and other matters of cartography shall be handled. Furthermore this Act will set out in plain terms the nature of the planet Yukon and its natural history as well as the resources found here and the manner in which they shall be distributed. It is hoped that through this Act a precedent shall be established for the creation of future role playing using the map of Yukon.

Article 1 - The Map
1.1) The nase image for official regional map of the planet Yukon shall be found at the following URL: http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2015/020/c/4/requested_atlas_by_zarodderdoktor-d8eop8l.png
1.2) The creator of the map is recognised as Promethius Prime (a.k.a Prime or Arcadia).
1.3) The official regional map shall be the property of the region and people of UCON.
1.4) The official regional map shall be controlled and maintained by the Minister for Cartography in accordance with the terms of this Act.
1.5) The official regional map is to be considered open source and any citizen of the region may use it to produce maps of their own; they may not however enforce any alterations they make to the official regional map without the approval of the Minister for Cartography.

Article 2 - Claims
2.1) Each citizen shall be legal entitled to a minimum one nation on the map.

  • 1) Initial map claims are made on a first come first served basis.
  • 2) If two people should claim the same territory within the same map update period then it shall be for the Minister for Cartography to arbitrate a solution between the parties.

2.2) The territorial size of nations on the map shall be determined by the Minister for Cartography, based upon a combination of Population (as derived from Nationstates), location and resource value.
2.3) Expansion claims shall be managed on a case by case basis at the Minister for Cartography's discretion.

  • 1) A nation may expand its territory no more than once per Real Life month.
  • 2) Expansion claims must be realistic and possible based upon the claimant's economy, military, development and population as defined by existing role play.
  • 3) Territorial expansion is not an inherent right of any person and is entirely discretionary.
  • 4) To place an expansion claim the claimant must post in the Map Claims thread set in place by the Minister for Cartography and await a decision. The Minister of Cartography may place any reasonable requirements or restrictions upon an expansion claim in accordance with the considerations in (2.2.1 & 2.2.2). For an expansion claim to be completed the claimant must fulfill the requirements set out by the Minister for Cartography.

2.4) No person should make and map claim, either initial or for expansion, maliciously. For example a person should not claim land purely in the interest of blocking the expansion of another, or preventing a person from claiming desired territory.
2.5) For claimed territory to change hands between two players BOTH must agree to the change and this change must be approved by the Minister for Cartography. In the event of a territorial dispute, for example as a result of war or diplomacy, it shall be for the Minister for Cartography to judge whether or not an area changes hands based upon existing role play.
2.6) In the event that a person is deemed inactive in role play, as decided by the Minister of Cartography, their territory shall become and NPC nation for a period of discretionary length; after which time should no RP relating to the territory arise, or the former owner fail to return, the Minister for Cartography may remove the nation from the map reverting its territory to unclaimed land.
2.7) Where two or more people contest ownership of the same piece of land as an expansion claim it shall be for the Minister for Cartography to decide, based on current RP, who controls the territory.

Article 3 - History and Facts of Yukon
3.1) As the recognised creator of the map the natural history and facts of the planet shall be created at the discretion of Promethius Prime.

  • 1) Other players may, with the creator's approval, create elements of natural history and fact regarding Yukon.
  • 2) The species of flora and fauna found on Yukon are considered to be the same as those found on modern day Earth. However additional unique species may be created following the rules in this Act.
  • 3) The equator of the planet Yukon is considered to be 72,000 miles (115.872 km) long, making it three times larger than Earth.
  • 4) For the purposes of relative simplicity the gravitational and other factors of Yukon made different by its size compared to Earth are considered to be the same as Earth. Therefore despite its larger size Yukon's day length, time cycles, climate regions and gravitational pull are the same as Earth's.
  • 5) The material composition of Yukon is considered to be in the same proportions as Earth.
  • 6) Yukon has two moons, Aisoth and Roa. Both fall under the jurisdiction of the Minister for Cartography.
  • 7) Yukon is located in the Exodite System, orbiting the star Kaanur. There are a total of 8 other planets in the system which shall be named by convention as necessary.
  • 8) Yukon is a Maiden World, meaning it has not seen contact or habitation with human or other sentient species for the last 10,000+ years; thus new nations are considered to be newly established colony nations.

3.2) New non-sentient species of plant or animal may be created with the Minister for Cartography's approval.
3.3) Extant non-human sentient species are expressly forbidden from inhabiting Yukon; this is an OOC and not an IC rule.

  • 1) The Wolven or Wolfen created by Unibearia and used by New Wolfeinstein are a specific exception to this rule; however the use of this species by anyone other than these two players is a matter for the Minister for Cartography and Minister for Role Play's discretion.
  • 2) Pseudo-human and clone species created through genetic manipulation or selective breeding are allowed so long as their traits do not radically differ from those of regular humans and so long as any cosmetic changes are reasonable. The Ministers for Role Play and Cartography have final discretion on any such species.A nation MUST extensively role play the creation of these beings before using them.
  • 3) Advanced cybernetic organisms and transhuman artificial organisms are allowed so long as their numbers do not exceed 0.1% of a nation's total population. The Ministers for Role Play and Cartography have final discretion on any such species. A nation MUST extensively role play the creation of these beings before using them.
  • 4) Sentient AI and self aware androids or robots are expressly forbidden from inhabiting Yukon; this is an OOC and not an IC rule.

3.4) The default technological level of Yukon is described as Post-Modern with Science Fiction and Far Future elements. Any technologies developed on Enkon may be utilised on Yukon, provided they do not breach the terms of this Act and can be proven to have existed on Enkon.

  • 1) A person may develop any technology they wish to use provided that it is realistic, does not rely upon 'magic' or fantasy elements and does not breach basic role playing conventions such as god moding.
  • 2) New technologies need not be approved by the Ministers for Role Play and Cartography, however they do have the power to deny their use.
  • 3) Any person may petition the Ministers for Cartography and Role Play for an investigation into a piece of technology which they believe to be unfair or which breaches the rules.
  • 4) While space travel is possible players are discouraged (though not prohibited) from role playing space travel beyond the limits of the Exodite System. Furthermore any events which take place outside the Exodite System cannot be used to influence events within it without the approval of both the Minister for Role Play and Cartography.
  • 5) Small colonies, outposts and research stations on any significant body within the Exodite System are allowed by must be fully RPed and approved by the Minister for Cartography.
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Ajerrin

8) Yukon is a Maiden World, meaning it has not seen contact or habitation with human or other sentient species for the last 10,000+ years; thus new nations are considered to be newly established colony nations.

Not a fan of this one... I was working with two other nations on our common link history and planned to discover this place as the planet the Ajerri went to right after Earth. I think that's between 6000-1000 years ago.
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Ajerrin

3) Advanced cybernetic organisms and transhuman artificial organisms are allowed so long as their numbers do not exceed 0.1% of a nation's total population. The Ministers for Role Play and Cartography have final discretion on any such species. A nation MUST extensively role play the creation of these beings before using them.

While I agree these must be extensively RPd, who are you to set limits to a nation's population?

4) Sentient AI and self aware androids or robots are expressly forbidden from inhabiting Yukon; this is an OOC and not an IC rule.

Eggmanland built various levels sentient AI and this tech was known to inhabit Enkon in numerous nations.
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Ajerrin

I think two of these laws minimize the role of the cabinet and/or regional voice of democracy, while placing the Minister of Cartography in a very powerful position within the region.

3.4.2 New technologies need not be approved by the Ministers for Role Play and Cartography, however they do have the power to deny their use.

3) Any person may petition the Ministers for Cartography and Role Play for an investigation into a piece of technology which they believe to be unfair or which breaches the rules.

1) The Wolven or Wolfen created by Unibearia and used by New Wolfeinstein are a specific exception to this rule; however the use of this species by anyone other than these two players is a matter for the Minister for Cartography and Minister for Role Play's discretion.

2) Pseudo-human and clone species created through genetic manipulation or selective breeding are allowed so long as their traits do not radically differ from those of regular humans and so long as any cosmetic changes are reasonable. The Ministers for Role Play and Cartography have final discretion on any such species.A nation MUST extensively role play the creation of these beings before using them.

3) Advanced cybernetic organisms and transhuman artificial organisms are allowed so long as their numbers do not exceed 0.1% of a nation's total population. The Ministers for Role Play and Cartography have final discretion on any such species. A nation MUST extensively role play the creation of these beings before using them.


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Arcadia
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Are you sure self aware and wholly artificial life forms were on Enkon?

As for your first point this act would be an RP rule which places limits on how many of these advanced cybernetic organisms a person can have in the same we we regulate a percentage of the population which is in our army. It is to ensure balance and fairness as well as realism. I perhaps could be clearer on what I mean by Advanced cybernetic organisms and transhuman artificial organisms; I do not mean people who have had a couple of limbs replaced with robotic ones, I mean people whose souls have literally been transferred into an artificial body thus granting them functional immortality. I hope you can see why the limit has been proposed.

The reason for the extensive powers granted to ministers meanwhile is in order to prevent sudden abuses; that is not to say that the Ministers need be involved in every detail, however this act gives them the power to intervene if necessary. My concern is that people will start to use non-human species as a matter of course and we will lose any sense of realism in their use and spread. My intent is not to limit the extent of people's RP but to ensure that its fair for everyone and that some degree of regulation is in place so that we can, if needed, say 'No' when someone goes over the line.

To be clear in the normal course of things approval need not be sought; this act merely enables the Ministers to act if it is deemed necessary. Therefore a person wishing to create a species need not ask a minister first, however must accept that if it crosses the line of reasonable RP it can be denied.
Edited by Arcadia, Jan 22 2015, 05:29 PM.
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Ajerrin

Despite my hardened criticism of this document I am very appreciative of its creation and its creator. I am very open to a caucus of these issues.
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Ajerrin

Yeah, Eggmanlandia had made AI robots and used them for a while. He was a good RP guy for a while. I hired millions of them to build my canals and after the nation's CTE the AI bots were given citizenship and were part of the Iron Horse province of the Ajerrin Empire on Silva. AI has been a very small industry (mainly because the RP has been very limited) but an industry none the less for Lahui.

The UFA purchased ships from Athretvari that used more advanced AI tech, which he RPed for RL months, that my original stellar naval corps were being trained on. It is with those ships that Ajerrin uses to get here (Ajerrin's arrival will be RPd this summer). This was all RPd.

I'd also like to point out you had self aware, wholly artificial life forms in a great RP story line too.
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Arcadia
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My self aware artificial life forms were not AIs but rather humans whose minds had been transferred into an artificial body. As for AIs I had advanced ones which are not prohibited, but they were not self aware or sentient by any means. Again the reason for this ban is to avoid abuses and people using such constructs to circumvent the population rules particularly for military numbers.

I don't want to end up in a situation where a person with say a 600 million population claims to have a military of 300 million sentient robots.
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Airatania
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Ajerrin
Jan 22 2015, 05:25 PM
I think two of these laws minimize the role of the cabinet and/or regional voice of democracy, while placing the Minister of Cartography in a very powerful position within the region.

3.4.2 New technologies need not be approved by the Ministers for Role Play and Cartography, however they do have the power to deny their use.

3) Any person may petition the Ministers for Cartography and Role Play for an investigation into a piece of technology which they believe to be unfair or which breaches the rules.

1) The Wolven or Wolfen created by Unibearia and used by New Wolfeinstein are a specific exception to this rule; however the use of this species by anyone other than these two players is a matter for the Minister for Cartography and Minister for Role Play's discretion.

2) Pseudo-human and clone species created through genetic manipulation or selective breeding are allowed so long as their traits do not radically differ from those of regular humans and so long as any cosmetic changes are reasonable. The Ministers for Role Play and Cartography have final discretion on any such species.A nation MUST extensively role play the creation of these beings before using them.

3) Advanced cybernetic organisms and transhuman artificial organisms are allowed so long as their numbers do not exceed 0.1% of a nation's total population. The Ministers for Role Play and Cartography have final discretion on any such species. A nation MUST extensively role play the creation of these beings before using them.


What if, instead of placing the sole discretion on these issues with the Ministers of Role Play and Cartography, we instead gave the proposed Senate jurisdiction in this area? If a nation violates any of the rules laid out in this document, it would be up to the Senate to debate, and ultimately decide whether or not the violation can be accepted or not. This way, you aren't placing too much power on one person, and instead placing it with people who have been directly elected for that purpose.
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Unibearia

Plus, the map is owned by the entirety of the region so we should be able to vote on it and propose changes.

I like the part where it says that Yukon is 3X bigger than Earth...
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Arcadia
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This Act is designed to work in cohesion with the recently approved constitutional draft; meaning that the rules laid out here are symbiotic. The constitution tells us that the Regional Assembly is the supreme governing body and can issue standing orders compelling ministers to act in a certain manner. Thus it isn't the sole discretion of the Minister - this Act simply gives the Ministers discretionary powers that they can use without needing to consult the RA every time.
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Unibearia

Well, I still think that a vote should be made. After all, some of us are currently RPing as native.
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Arcadia
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As I said before, no-one should have jumped the gun by claiming native status; further a compromise to this has been worked out already. Anyone wishing to play as native can do so by claiming they come from one of the moons of Yukon however natural disaster has rendered the moon uninhabitable and thus they have migrated to Yukon. The reason for this compromise is that a large number of people are playing as colonists means that they are disadvantaging themselves compared to native nations which will be fully developed.

As for voting, if we require a Senate vote for EVERY decision then it will take an excessive amount of time to make decisions; furthermore it takes the larger degree of executive responsibility away from them. What is the point in having a Role Play and Cartography Minister if all of their decisions are made for them?

Now I accept that no-one wants another NCON situation where new rules are introduced without consultation, however as the approved Constitutional draft states, the RA has the power to challenge and amend new rules made by Ministers. That would include any rules, decisions or rulings made under this Act.
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Airatania
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Arcadia
Jan 22 2015, 08:23 PM
As I said before, no-one should have jumped the gun by claiming native status; further a compromise to this has been worked out already. Anyone wishing to play as native can do so by claiming they come from one of the moons of Yukon however natural disaster has rendered the moon uninhabitable and thus they have migrated to Yukon. The reason for this compromise is that a large number of people are playing as colonists means that they are disadvantaging themselves compared to native nations which will be fully developed.

As for voting, if we require a Senate vote for EVERY decision then it will take an excessive amount of time to make decisions; furthermore it takes the larger degree of executive responsibility away from them. What is the point in having a Role Play and Cartography Minister if all of their decisions are made for them?

Now I accept that no-one wants another NCON situation where new rules are introduced without consultation, however as the approved Constitutional draft states, the RA has the power to challenge and amend new rules made by Ministers. That would include any rules, decisions or rulings made under this Act.
I'm not saying all decisions should be made by the Senate, but I do agree with Ajerrin that there seems to be an awful lot of power placed in those roles. Territorial disputes should by all means be left to the Cartographer, as should any RP disputes be left to the Minister of Role Play. But I feel that something as overarching as new technology or the use of non-human races in role play, those are important decisions that can effect everyone, and, in my opinion, should not be left to one person alone.

At the very least, there should be a clause that allows any decision made by the Minister of Cartography or the Minister of Role Play regarding these issues can be appealed to the Senate. I say Senate because appealing a decision to the entire Assembly would be very cumbersome and time consuming, whereas I think a group of 3-7 Senators could deal with it rather quickly.
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Onza
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I understand the desire to grant as much power to the general public as possible, but when it comes to issues of deciding what is and what isn't acceptable RP wise, I really do feel like it should the power of the Regional Cartographer/RP Minister. If one of them makes a decision that is unappreciated, it can be assumed that said individual will reverse their decision following public backlash, or that the Senate can pass a resolution nullifying the decision in theory.

It's just a bit bureaucratic to expect to vote on every little thing, including if people should be allowed to use this and that. It just becomes unnecessary. Even if it is the Senate doing the voting, I can hardly get the current regional government to vote on embassies. The interest in lodging a vote is understandably low.

As for the native nations, I feel that Prime's compromise is the best. It is true, it's an unfair advantage to nations trying to RP as native to the planet. Coming from a destroyed moon, however, is a different story.

I think that this bill is quite appropriate in its current entirety. The only critique I could agree with is AJ's point about limiting AI to a certain portion of the population. It would be, perhaps, better just to say that these robots may not be recognized as governing individuals, nor may they become the dominant race in a location. They should also have a fair weakness.
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Arcadia
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Airtania this is what I am trying to tell you; the RA can already appeal and overturn decisions made by government ministers as laid out in the approved constitutional draft and the constitution doesn't just limit it to RP decisions, any decision made by a minister or the President can be appealed by the RA. Putting a clause in this act when the RA is already so empowered by the constitution is pointless.

As for decisions on new tech as the wording of the Act says under section 3.4:
Quote:
 
  • 1) A person may develop any technology they wish to use provided that it is realistic, does not rely upon 'magic' or fantasy elements and does not breach basic role playing conventions such as god moding.
  • 2) New technologies need not be approved by the Ministers for Role Play and Cartography, however they do have the power to deny their use.


Now the section on the introduction of new races is merely building on existing precedent that we do no allow non-human species with the exception of Wolfen. If anything this act actually broadens the scope from what it previously was by specifically legislating the issue, this means that if at a later date the region feels that the rule can be lifted, or that a new exception such as that for Wolfen, should be added then the RA retains the power to amend this Act.

Section 3.3 does not state that all pseudo-humans require ministry approval, actually it works in reverse; you have the right to RP creating whatever pseudo-humans you like, the Ministers merely have the power to review said creations and rule on whether or not they should be allowed. This power of review would only be used if the minister in question, or another member of the community, decided it was in the interest of the region to do so. Not only this but under the approved Constitutional Draft the RA reserves the right to overturn any decision made by a minister.

The rules on non-human species laid out in this Act are designed to prevent abuse, not limit creativity. As you rightly say the use of non-human species is a matter for the region as a whole to decide upon - but it is my belief that this should be done on a case by case basis to prevent abuses. That is where Section 3.3 comes in and is why the exceptions clause exists. The precedent allowing Wolfen implies that additional exceptions may be made in the future, but only if the RA deems it appropriate. So you see this Act does not grant the ministers undue power, it merely sets out plainly where their responsibility lies.

Once again I must reiterate that the RA retains the power to review, contest and ultimately overrule any decision made by a minister.

Finally please do not take the tone of this post as anything other than me trying to explain the intent and content of the Act; I'm not being snide or trying to attack you I'm merely explaining how the Act works and how it would function in relation to the Constitution.
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Arcadia
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On the subject of limits to the population, it does not relate to AI which may be as prevalent as a person wishes, it relates specifically to persons who have transferred their consciousness (or soul) into an artificial body. My reason for proposing such a limit is for the same reason that I believe we must regulate the usage of non-human species, and that is to prevent abuse.

Such transhuman beings are potentially extremely powerful, being as they are functionally immortal, and a person can outfit their bodies with any number of weapons and gadgets which would make them vastly superior to even a battalion of human soldiers. Imagine, if you will, that we were allowing the use of superpowers - my argument would be that we limit the maximum number of superpowered individuals within a nation to prevent overuse and abuse. That is my argument here; because of how potentially powerful these beings are there is a real need to limit their numbers.

I will need to be specific when I say that section 3.3 does not limit the use of robots, AIs or normal cyborgs (that is people whose bodies have been enhanced with robotic parts) only people who have replaced their entire body with an artificial one. So far there is only one person who has RPed doing this and that is me, so the only person this section is limiting at the present time is the person who is proposing it. Let me give another example of why I feel the numbers of these beings should be limited; before we left NCON I had named one individual who had succeeded transcendence to such a degree that they could effectively and efficiently control multiple bodies and maintain multiple consciousnesses at once, it has been three hundred years since that time for my people so how many more people like that do you think I could have? Let's put this in mathematical terms; one of my transhumans can control at the same time let's say ten bodies. Each of those bodies is many times faster and stronger than a human, with weapons and gadgets built in which further enhance them, what's more destroying one body doesn't matter because the consciousness is collective so in order to kill the person you'd need to destroy all of the vessels they are inhabiting, which could be anywhere in the world. So you understand now, I hope, why I wish to limit the numbers of these beings.
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Onza
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Arcadia
Jan 22 2015, 09:40 PM
On the subject of limits to the population, it does not relate to AI which may be as prevalent as a person wishes, it relates specifically to persons who have transferred their consciousness (or soul) into an artificial body. My reason for proposing such a limit is for the same reason that I believe we must regulate the usage of non-human species, and that is to prevent abuse.

Such transhuman beings are potentially extremely powerful, being as they are functionally immortal, and a person can outfit their bodies with any number of weapons and gadgets which would make them vastly superior to even a battalion of human soldiers. Imagine, if you will, that we were allowing the use of superpowers - my argument would be that we limit the maximum number of superpowered individuals within a nation to prevent overuse and abuse. That is my argument here; because of how potentially powerful these beings are there is a real need to limit their numbers.

I will need to be specific when I say that section 3.3 does not limit the use of robots, AIs or normal cyborgs (that is people whose bodies have been enhanced with robotic parts) only people who have replaced their entire body with an artificial one. So far there is only one person who has RPed doing this and that is me, so the only person this section is limiting at the present time is the person who is proposing it. Let me give another example of why I feel the numbers of these beings should be limited; before we left NCON I had named one individual who had succeeded transcendence to such a degree that they could effectively and efficiently control multiple bodies and maintain multiple consciousnesses at once, it has been three hundred years since that time for my people so how many more people like that do you think I could have? Let's put this in mathematical terms; one of my transhumans can control at the same time let's say ten bodies. Each of those bodies is many times faster and stronger than a human, with weapons and gadgets built in which further enhance them, what's more destroying one body doesn't matter because the consciousness is collective so in order to kill the person you'd need to destroy all of the vessels they are inhabiting, which could be anywhere in the world. So you understand now, I hope, why I wish to limit the numbers of these beings.
Yes, I understand and condone said provision, as well as the entirety of the bill.
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Tyvenia

I have a one minor, sort of nitpicky things that I'll mention, and only ac ouple more important items.

First, I think your section references in 2.3.4 to 2.2.1 and 2.2.2 are wrong (2.3.1 and 2.3.2).

Second, I’m sympathetic to the opinions of Aj and Airatania, that the level of involvement of Ministers seems a bit much, but ultimately I agree with Prime that there is a necessary need for the executive branch to reach out with haste to prevent issues. That is the only real advantage to the executive branch.

Third, I don’t believe that it is clear that this acts in concert with the constitution. While all laws will obviously be subject to constitutional provisions, I don’t think that would be clear to a new person reading this document. However, I think this can be easily alleviated with noting it in the preamble (e.g. "This Act is intended to supplement the constitution, and further regulate….” )

Lastly, as creator (opposed to your current position as minister of cartography) of the map you’ve given yourself a lot of authority. I don’t have a specific objection to that, but did think it was best to bring it forward as a note since no one else had yet.
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Tyvenia

Arcadia
Jan 22 2015, 09:40 PM
On the subject of limits to the population, it does not relate to AI which may be as prevalent as a person wishes, it relates specifically to persons who have transferred their consciousness (or soul) into an artificial body. My reason for proposing such a limit is for the same reason that I believe we must regulate the usage of non-human species, and that is to prevent abuse.

Such transhuman beings are potentially extremely powerful, being as they are functionally immortal, and a person can outfit their bodies with any number of weapons and gadgets which would make them vastly superior to even a battalion of human soldiers. Imagine, if you will, that we were allowing the use of superpowers - my argument would be that we limit the maximum number of superpowered individuals within a nation to prevent overuse and abuse. That is my argument here; because of how potentially powerful these beings are there is a real need to limit their numbers.

I will need to be specific when I say that section 3.3 does not limit the use of robots, AIs or normal cyborgs (that is people whose bodies have been enhanced with robotic parts) only people who have replaced their entire body with an artificial one. So far there is only one person who has RPed doing this and that is me, so the only person this section is limiting at the present time is the person who is proposing it. Let me give another example of why I feel the numbers of these beings should be limited; before we left NCON I had named one individual who had succeeded transcendence to such a degree that they could effectively and efficiently control multiple bodies and maintain multiple consciousnesses at once, it has been three hundred years since that time for my people so how many more people like that do you think I could have? Let's put this in mathematical terms; one of my transhumans can control at the same time let's say ten bodies. Each of those bodies is many times faster and stronger than a human, with weapons and gadgets built in which further enhance them, what's more destroying one body doesn't matter because the consciousness is collective so in order to kill the person you'd need to destroy all of the vessels they are inhabiting, which could be anywhere in the world. So you understand now, I hope, why I wish to limit the numbers of these beings.
Can you explain the rationale (more for me than the rules) how such transcendence, as you describe it just now, isn't magic?
Edited by Tyvenia, Jan 22 2015, 09:50 PM.
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Airatania
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Arcadia, there is no need to get testy, I am merely stating my concerns. I never felt that you intended to give yourself or any other minister too much control, I simply was expressing concern that it could be interpreted that way.

Of course the regional government can't vote on every little decision, I understand that. I merely wanted to make sure it is clear that persons who feel like a decision made against them is unjust can take that matter to someone and be given a chance to have their case heard, that's all.

But if that is too much to ask then I will drop the subject.
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Unibearia

Onza
Jan 22 2015, 09:18 PM
I understand the desire to grant as much power to the general public as possible, but when it comes to issues of deciding what is and what isn't acceptable RP wise, I really do feel like it should the power of the Regional Cartographer/RP Minister. If one of them makes a decision that is unappreciated, it can be assumed that said individual will reverse their decision following public backlash, or that the Senate can pass a resolution nullifying the decision in theory.

It's just a bit bureaucratic to expect to vote on every little thing, including if people should be allowed to use this and that. It just becomes unnecessary. Even if it is the Senate doing the voting, I can hardly get the current regional government to vote on embassies. The interest in lodging a vote is understandably low.

As for the native nations, I feel that Prime's compromise is the best. It is true, it's an unfair advantage to nations trying to RP as native to the planet. Coming from a destroyed moon, however, is a different story.

I think that this bill is quite appropriate in its current entirety. The only critique I could agree with is AJ's point about limiting AI to a certain portion of the population. It would be, perhaps, better just to say that these robots may not be recognized as governing individuals, nor may they become the dominant race in a location. They should also have a fair weakness.
EMPs are a weakness
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Arcadia
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Airtania, I'm not getting testy as I said:
Quote:
 
Finally please do not take the tone of this post as anything other than me trying to explain the intent and content of the Act; I'm not being snide or trying to attack you I'm merely explaining how the Act works and how it would function in relation to the Constitution.


Tyvenia, all laws in the region will act in concert with the constitution; such is obvious in a system where we have a written constitution. Stating in every Act that it works in concert with the constitution is pointlessly time consuming. I know its a small detail but requiring that a law specifically state that it works in concert with the constitution sets a bad precedent for the future. Also to address your concern over the powers of the creator, the RA again remains supreme and would be able to issue standing orders and pass Acts to counter the creator's whims if they so choose. As for the technology of transcendence it has been fully RPed out as a gradual process in which the organic body is replaced with artificial parts until the mind inhabits an entirely mechanical form; as with anything of this nature I have always RPed drawbacks, the process has a punishingly high mortality rate and even then on 1/3 of those who undergo the process retain their original personality and intellect.

Airtania; I understand your point completely and as I said before in my answers, this act works under the system established in the Constitution, which means, in your own words: persons who feel like a decision made against them is unjust can take that matter to someone and be given a chance to have their case heard. The provision for this exists in the constitution and by putting this in bold I am not being testy but trying to make it clear to you that while your concern is a valid one, it is one which has already been considered and dealt with in a manner consistent with your stated wishes.

I apologise if I seem testy or snide, I'm not talking thus; as I said in my previous post I'm just trying to make clear to everyone what this Act means and how it works. I'll be honest I'm starting to get a little exasperated that every issue and concern has been answered fully and that everything you need to answer your questions is out in plain view yet I'm having to repeat myself. That is why I am putting text in bold, so you can see my point, not because I am testy or annoyed or snide or angry.

So here is a summary of the arguments put forward against this bill so far and my answers to them:

  • 1) Ajerrin expressed concern over the Maiden World rule in 3.1.8; this issue was resolved with the lost moon compromise.
  • 2) Ajerrin expressed concern over limiting the number of advanced cybernetic organisms and transhuman artificial organisms a nation is allowed in 3.3.3; this issue was resolved by explaining the nature of these beings and their potential for abuse.
  • 3) Ajerrin expressed concern over the restriction on sentient AI and robots; this issue was resolved by explaining that the rule referred only to machines and AIs capable of sentient thought - not advanced AIs capable of simulating thus.
  • 4) Ajerrin expressed concerns over the power granted to the Ministers for Role Play and Cartography by the Act; this was resolved by explaining that while it was true the Act grants significant power, it remains within the power of the RA to review and overturn Ministerial decisions as well as issue Standing Orders which require them to take a certain course of action.
  • 5) Airtania proposed placing the power to make decisions given by the Act to Ministers instead with the Senate; this was deemed impractical as role playing decisions need to be made decisively, while senate procedures require days in order to pass a ruling.
  • 6) Unibearia expressed a desire that some of the historic and RP rules relating to Yukon were unfair and should be put to a vote; this issue resolved itself (partially by summary point 1, the lost moon compromise) because since this is an Act proposed before the Assembly, we are voting on it.
  • 7) Airtania expressed concerns over Ministerial power over matters of new technology; this issue was resolved by explaining that the Act gives ministers the power to review and deny the use of new technology and further by explaining that the RA retained the power to review and overrule ministerial decisions (as explained in summary point 4).
  • 8) Airtania proposed a clause which gives the Senate the power to appeal ministerial decisions; this issue was resolved by explaining that the RA already has the power to review and overrule ministerial decisions (as explained in summary points 4 and 7).
  • 9) Onza expressed concern over the population limit on advanced cybernetic organisms and transhuman artificial organisms a nation is allowed in 3.3.3; this issue was resolved by explaining the nature of these beings and their potential for abuse (as explained in summary point 2).
  • 10) Tyvenia expressed concern that it was not clear that the Act works in concert with the constitution; I have now explained that as a system with a written constitution it should be considered obvious that all laws must adhere and work with the constitution without the need to specifically say it.
  • 11) Airtania expressed concerns that people who feel hat a decision made against them is unjust should be able to take the matter to someone and have their case heard; this issue was resolved (see summary points 4,7 and 8) by explaining that the RA has the power to review and overrule all ministerial decisions. Further it should be stated that the RA may also form a judicial panel to resolve any disputes of this nature.


Have I missed anyone's concerns off of my summary list? If so just post it here and I will do my best to see that the issue is resolved.

By my count the only issue remaining which has not been resolved fully is Summary Point 10; we must decide whether or not specifically stating that an Act works in concert with the constitution is necessary in all Acts.
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Airatania
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Thank you Arcadia for explaining, and for addressing my concerns. I apologize for making you repeat yourself like that, I clearly didn't make the proper connection between the Constitution and how this bill relates to it. Thank you for clearing that up.
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Arcadia
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I'm glad that you understand; and please don't think me some angry rage filled monster. I'm actually quite a calm and friendly person; its just that tone and manner are very difficult to convey online.
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Earth

Arcadia
Jan 22 2015, 08:23 PM
As I said before, no-one should have jumped the gun by claiming native status; further a compromise to this has been worked out already. Anyone wishing to play as native can do so by claiming they come from one of the moons of Yukon however natural disaster has rendered the moon uninhabitable and thus they have migrated to Yukon. The reason for this compromise is that a large number of people are playing as colonists means that they are disadvantaging themselves compared to native nations which will be fully developed.

As for voting, if we require a Senate vote for EVERY decision then it will take an excessive amount of time to make decisions; furthermore it takes the larger degree of executive responsibility away from them. What is the point in having a Role Play and Cartography Minister if all of their decisions are made for them?

Now I accept that no-one wants another NCON situation where new rules are introduced without consultation, however as the approved Constitutional draft states, the RA has the power to challenge and amend new rules made by Ministers. That would include any rules, decisions or rulings made under this Act.
I've said countless times that playing as a native is not giving me any benefits whatsoever...
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Charlie T. O. Jones

Arcadia is a friendly guy... trust me, I know him in person.

As for this act, I will fully support it so long as civilizations on Yukon are not considered to be exclusively from Enkon. Personally, I had not joined the RP in Enkon, despite Arcadia's repeated insistence that I do, thus I have no roleplaying history with regard to this region. So long as players are given the option to have their RP nations as far flung colonies isolated from distant empires, I am absolutely fine with this act.

I do have one reservation though. In an effort to limit the sheer amount of territorial and expansion claims, I do think that Article 3.1 Section 3 should be amended so that the equatorial circumference of Yukon be at least 216,000 miles in length (9 times the size of Earth's Equator), if not more, so that while expansionism and related conflicts may still occur, there is less demand for territory on the map. This may also mean that population size, in proportion to land available, becomes less of a problem than it would on a smaller world (Earth has a population of about 7.2 Billion, yet Arcadia alone has a population of over 14 Billion, meaning that a planet with an equatorial circumference of 72,000 miles may be inefficient to realistically support such large populations.
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Tyvenia

We're not really at odds. I agree that everyone should realize that legislation should interact with constitutions, but they won't. So I'm really sticking to my preference that this Act, and the constitution more generally should incorporate references to one another...

Three years of reading constitutional law cases has taught me -- if little else.
Edited by Tyvenia, Jan 23 2015, 01:13 AM.
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Unibearia

Charlie T. O. Jones
Jan 23 2015, 12:42 AM
Arcadia is a friendly guy... trust me, I know him in person.

As for this act, I will fully support it so long as civilizations on Yukon are not considered to be exclusively from Enkon. Personally, I had not joined the RP in Enkon, despite Arcadia's repeated insistence that I do, thus I have no roleplaying history with regard to this region. So long as players are given the option to have their RP nations as far flung colonies isolated from distant empires, I am absolutely fine with this act.

I do have one reservation though. In an effort to limit the sheer amount of territorial and expansion claims, I do think that Article 3.1 Section 3 should be amended so that the equatorial circumference of Yukon be at least 216,000 miles in length (9 times the size of Earth's Equator), if not more, so that while expansionism and related conflicts may still occur, there is less demand for territory on the map. This may also mean that population size, in proportion to land available, becomes less of a problem than it would on a smaller world (Earth has a population of about 7.2 Billion, yet Arcadia alone has a population of over 14 Billion, meaning that a planet with an equatorial circumference of 72,000 miles may be inefficient to realistically support such large populations.
I support this idea.... MORE CLAY! :D


But seriously, it would fix the constant problem of population density that we had on Enkon.
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Arcadia
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After discussing the idea of a planetary size increase in person with Charlie it has been decided that the maximum practical circumference would be 5 times the size of Earth. The reason for this is the practical issue of relative pixel size - that is to say the size of a pixel in terms of miles squared which should be no more than 50 to retain representative size.
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New Wolfeinstein
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I approve of the vanilla bill, it's simple effective and if things don't work we can iron out the creases after we put it into effect
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Arcadia
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This bill is no longer under debate as it has been superseded by the Cartography Act and Technology Act
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