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Puppet Control Act 2015 (Yukon)
Topic Started: Mar 5 2015, 10:37 PM (157 Views)
Arcadia
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Preamble: The goal of this Act is to bring into place a reasonable system by which puppets may be used, controlled and RPed which will be as equitable as possible.

Article 1 - Puppet Use
1.1) Citizens who wish to use more than one nation for RP purposes for any purpose must clearly state which nation is their 'core' nation and which are their puppets in a dedicated OOC thread in the World Factbook Office in Saddler Street on the Offsite Forum.
1.2) Unrecorded puppet nations cannot be used in RP for any purpose.
1.3) Puppet nations can be used as a statistical source in any National Index the replace the stat for the 'core' nation in RP.
  • 1) It must be clearly stated within a person's OOC puppet control thread which statistics they are substituting.
  • 2) Population, GDP, GDP Per Capita, Government Budget and Income statistics cannot be substituted in this manner.
1.4) Puppet nation statistics cannot be stacked with (added to) those of the 'core' nation.
1.5) One puppet per person may, with the Minister for Cartography's approval, claim land on the map.
  • 1) This puppet must ICly be totally independent from the person's core nation and cannot at any point merge with it.
  • 2) This puppet's statistics cannot be used to substitute with those of the 'core' nation.
1.5) Puppet nations do not grant any OOC rights to the controlling player. However any rights the player has in relation to their 'core' nation they also have with relation to their puppets.
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46566
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I think puppets shouldn't be used at all. The whole reason for the end of NCON was the usage of puppets. Even though this bill only lets you supplement a index it would unbalance the rp. A example would you gaining DF points if you use one of your puppets. No puppets or the destruction of NCON was for nothing.
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Arcadia
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I disagree; the issue of puppet use in NCON was that it was largely unregulated and allowed for gross abuses. The aim of this act is to provide the sort of regulation NCON lacked while still allowing people to use puppets; the difference here is that instead of allowing one person to stack a mountain of puppets we instead use them for statistical swap outs.

My view is that one of NCON's shortcomings was that puppets were abused. The use of puppets isn't wrong in itself; its like most things in life, there's nothing bad about it until you abuse it.
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46566
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I think statistical swap outs are worse then stacking them. What's stopping either Nedea or me from creating a pro environment nation and cancelling out our toxicity levels or environmental beauty levels? Neither of us would have to worry about adding everything else with the puppet. It would unbalance the RP even more.This is potentially more abuse able then the last system. With the last system though i'd agree that it was abuses(as i was one who benefited from it) happened. At least with the last system we had you couldn't make specialized countries and still expected to be strong as all stats were added to your nation.The old way at least balanced the system out of that type of abuses.
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Arcadia
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Well the idea of this system is that it is clear that anyone can do a statistical swap out; I can understand your objections of course and respect your point of view, nonetheless I have my own views on this matter which I stick to.
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New Wolfeinstein
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I think puppets are a terrible idea, I do not approve of this bill
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Moarfall
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I agree with 46566 and New Wolfenstein. I, frankly, don't understand why this is a debatable issue. Puppets were the final nail in NCON's coffin. Stacking or swapping is a horrible idea that will lead to abuse, it's easier to not use them than to say "yes, but..." and have a huge list of rules. It's not worth the effort we'd put into it.
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Tyvenia

I oppose the substitution provision.

Unlike the others, I'm not inherently against the use of puppets (in fact I think they could have other benefits, not least of which is improved engagement), but I'm wary of the potential statistical boosts this could give. I think sec. 1.3(2) is a step in the right direction. Maybe with an extra provision that puppets have to be considered "historical" and therefore within the dominion of the mother-nation, and treated as an ethnic group, I would revisit the substitution problems I have.

Edit: For clarification after seeing 46556's concerns with my comments

I don't think this bill is salvageable. I could be persuaded otherwise, but at this point I'd like to see it scrapped and rewritten with the following adoptions:
a) The idea of a historic tie to a puppet needs to be RP'd by the mother nation (the RP-ban for the puppets would still be in place).
b) The idea of an "ethnic" or other community be carried through some effort in RP, whether in factbooks or another medium.
c) Instead of substitutions (which I tend to agree with 46556 is just another way of ignoring the consequences of your NS decisions), I'd like to see the use of a modest modifier, on both the positive and negative indices, that can "boost" your stats.
d) The ban on using the populations of puppet states should stand because I think that is a rational way to restrict abuse.

I think these would start to address my concerns of abuse.
Edited by Tyvenia, Mar 6 2015, 09:46 PM.
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Unibearia

I would propose that the term 'puppet' is used OOC and IC, the 'puppet' is an independent nation. No stat swapping or anything. That way, people can RP with more than one nation but if they get caught 'abusing' the system by sending some lets say, some international aid in the form of currency to the 'puppet' (User) main nation, then the moderation team gets involved.
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46566
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Tyvenia
Mar 6 2015, 07:56 PM
I oppose the substitution provision.

Unlike the others, I'm not inherently against the use of puppets (in fact I think they could have other benefits, not least of which is improved engagement), but I'm wary of the potential statistical boosts this could give. I think sec. 1.3(2) is a step in the right direction. Maybe with an extra provision that puppets have to be considered "historical" and therefore within the dominion of the mother-nation, and treated as an ethnic group, I would revisit the substitution problems I have.
I have like 5 puppets that have "historical" connections to 46566.Through both the USS on Enkon and the UPR on NCON prime. The smallest is 3 billion in population.let alone what's stopping me from placing them on the map as separate nations and then forming a alliance with my other nations? Prime has 3 puppets that have around 18 billion in population each.It would be NCON all over again.
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Tyvenia

46566
Mar 6 2015, 09:18 PM
Tyvenia
Mar 6 2015, 07:56 PM
I oppose the substitution provision.

Unlike the others, I'm not inherently against the use of puppets (in fact I think they could have other benefits, not least of which is improved engagement), but I'm wary of the potential statistical boosts this could give. I think sec. 1.3(2) is a step in the right direction. Maybe with an extra provision that puppets have to be considered "historical" and therefore within the dominion of the mother-nation, and treated as an ethnic group, I would revisit the substitution problems I have.
I have like 5 puppets that have "historical" connections to 46566.Through both the USS on Enkon and the UPR on NCON prime. The smallest is 3 billion in population.let alone what's stopping me from placing them on the map as separate nations and then forming a alliance with my other nations? Prime has 3 puppets that have around 18 billion in population each.It would be NCON all over again.
Yes, but there's a no-stacking provision, and a no substitution provision:

1.3) Puppet nations can be used as a statistical source in any National Index the replace the stat for the 'core' nation in RP.

2) Population, GDP, GDP Per Capita, Government Budget and Income statistics cannot be substituted in this manner. (Emphasis added.)

AND:

1.4) Puppet nation statistics cannot be stacked with (added to) those of the 'core' nation. (Emphasis added.)

-----

Anyway, the point of my historical faction consideration would be that those populations of ethnic nations should be considered absorbed. (A point I concede I did not make well. I'm going to edit my original response.) Also, after thinking about it for a while longer, I'd rather see puppets used to provide a modest modifier on the mother nation, for both its positive and negative indices.

And anyway, I don't think this specific bill is salvageable and, unless convinced otherwise, I won't vote for any version of it. I'd need to see a good-faith effort to rewrite it, other than merely editing it.
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Unibearia

46566
Mar 6 2015, 09:18 PM
Tyvenia
Mar 6 2015, 07:56 PM
I oppose the substitution provision.

Unlike the others, I'm not inherently against the use of puppets (in fact I think they could have other benefits, not least of which is improved engagement), but I'm wary of the potential statistical boosts this could give. I think sec. 1.3(2) is a step in the right direction. Maybe with an extra provision that puppets have to be considered "historical" and therefore within the dominion of the mother-nation, and treated as an ethnic group, I would revisit the substitution problems I have.
I have like 5 puppets that have "historical" connections to 46566.Through both the USS on Enkon and the UPR on NCON prime. The smallest is 3 billion in population.let alone what's stopping me from placing them on the map as separate nations and then forming a alliance with my other nations? Prime has 3 puppets that have around 18 billion in population each.It would be NCON all over again.
In would propose that 'puppets' are just independent nations and CANNOT have any alliances with the player's 'main' nation.

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Tyvenia

There's also a repeat of the number 1.5) -- for clarification, the first one is referencing not "puppets" necessarily, but a second, independent nation?
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46566
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Tyvenia
Mar 6 2015, 09:34 PM
46566
Mar 6 2015, 09:18 PM
Tyvenia
Mar 6 2015, 07:56 PM
I oppose the substitution provision.

Unlike the others, I'm not inherently against the use of puppets (in fact I think they could have other benefits, not least of which is improved engagement), but I'm wary of the potential statistical boosts this could give. I think sec. 1.3(2) is a step in the right direction. Maybe with an extra provision that puppets have to be considered "historical" and therefore within the dominion of the mother-nation, and treated as an ethnic group, I would revisit the substitution problems I have.
I have like 5 puppets that have "historical" connections to 46566.Through both the USS on Enkon and the UPR on NCON prime. The smallest is 3 billion in population.let alone what's stopping me from placing them on the map as separate nations and then forming a alliance with my other nations? Prime has 3 puppets that have around 18 billion in population each.It would be NCON all over again.
Yes, but there's a no-stacking provision, and a no substitution provision:

1.3) Puppet nations can be used as a statistical source in any National Index the replace the stat for the 'core' nation in RP.

2) Population, GDP, GDP Per Capita, Government Budget and Income statistics cannot be substituted in this manner. (Emphasis added.)

AND:

1.4) Puppet nation statistics cannot be stacked with (added to) those of the 'core' nation. (Emphasis added.)

-----

Anyway, the point of my historical faction consideration would be that those populations of ethnic nations should be considered absorbed. (A point I concede I did not make well. I'm going to edit my original response.) Also, after thinking about it for a while longer, I'd rather see puppets used to provide a modest modifier on the mother nation, for both its positive and negative indices.

And anyway, I don't think this specific bill is salvageable and, unless convinced otherwise, I won't vote for any version of it. I'd need to see a good-faith effort to rewrite it, other than merely editing it.
1) This puppet must ICly be totally independent from the person's core nation and cannot at any point merge with it.

I would place them as separate nations but allied as equal partners.It would be like NATO or the Warsaw pact.Duncan Grey and Wavy2 are ethnic midgari and silvan in silva are mixed ethnic midgari and local peoples originally from Silva.
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Ajerrin

I'm in accord with the majority here in believing that less is more. Puppets are good. I have them. However, I use them in name only and for historic standards. Otherwise they're free to roam the megaverse and do whatevs.

This also fails the "Keep it simple" model we're trying to follow as well.
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46566
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Since this bill seems to have no real support.I'd like to see the bill either reworked or removed from the floor.
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Herargon
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Puppets can be abused. I don't think it would be a good idea. Puppet nations however could be used (not in RP) to represent historical nations, or provinces, or colonies (but again, they may not claim land on the forum).
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Onza
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I just can't bring myself to support a bill that reintroduces puppets into the RP. I think that they can be used for aesthetics and that's about it.

I proposed something similar back in NCON, but it was merely a compromise to grandfather puppeteering nations in. I think 46566 hit it on the head with Ned as the example.

I could maybe support Tyvenia's suggestion, which is that puppets provide a modest boost to a single index - but even then I think it would make more sense for the master nation to just RP boosting that index rather than creating a new puppet for that purpose.
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Arcadia
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Very well, as the proposer of the Act I withdraw this version from the table.
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