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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 30 2008, 06:06 PM (1,053 Views) | |
| USSR | Sep 3 2008, 04:15 AM Post #16 |
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Proletarii vsekh stran, soyedinyaytes!
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Salary is already included in my numbers. A tank costs 55,40 € per Kilometer including maintenance, fuel, repairing charges, everything. Further I added 27.75 € (50.00 %) per Kilometer as salary. So I assume, this is enough to pay your personal. I also included it for the jets but there I used only 25.00 % because of the high costs for maintenance and so on. One flight hour for a jet is about 6,890 € + 1,750 € salary for the salary. A normal flights about 300 h / year. All the ship numbers mentioned, that salary for the sailors is included. So you dont have to think about
Conscripts = military draft, you are forced to service in the armed forces mandatory. In Germany you have to serve 9 month. If you refuse to go to the Bundeswehr you have to serve for 9 month in civilian service. Conscription allows big numbers of soldiers at approx. low costs. Thats why most armies had it, even the USA, but abandoned it in the late 1970's. Most of the soldiers who served in Vietnam have been conscripts. Also you have big numbers of reserve forces. I really dont get, why you have to face social issues? I have never seen mass protests in front of the Kreiswehrersatzamt where they demand, not having to serve in the Bundeswehr. It is honestly very normal and the people got used to that young men have to serve. |
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| West Germany | Sep 3 2008, 07:21 AM Post #17 |
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Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
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Indeed. So it works in armies all around the world. Especially big armies or nations with little income get so their men. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription Adler |
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| West Germany | Sep 3 2008, 12:23 PM Post #18 |
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Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
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How is your model working, Merk? Infact none of the soldiers drafted feels worse because of the money. It is a time nearly all want to avoid. There are by far not many volunteers at the beginning, however, later most of the proffessional soldiers are drafted, who stay! That's why the Bundeswehr still wants to keep it because of that. In all other states they have problems to get so many new soldiers. Furthermore the draft is limited to 12-24 months (in Germany in Cold War). After that the conscripts are released to follow their civil job. However, from time to time they are reenrolled to play soldier again. Or, in times of a crise, they are enrolled to fight. Payment is low. But that's why no one made protests! Adler |
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| USSR | Sep 3 2008, 09:14 PM Post #19 |
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Proletarii vsekh stran, soyedinyaytes!
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Any decission yet, which numbers we should choose? Besides, I tried to made some inquiries, and I got a very surprising result: The percentage has not changed that much in the last 20 years. Tanks are getting more and more expensive so more and more money is planned for maintenance. 8 % seems very common. Could not find any other information until now. Still sniff all around the web
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| South Korea | Sep 3 2008, 09:23 PM Post #20 |
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Found some interesting number about ships http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/...iewtopic/id/566 The following figures were provided by Chatfield in 1938 in response to an enquiry from the Australian Government: (Source [AA : A1608, N51/1/6] ) ESTIMATED DIRECT COST OF PRINCIPAL CLASSES OF SHIP EXPRESSED AS A YEARLY AMOUNT Maintenance Annual Large Ship Costs Aircraft Replacement Repairs Total (a) (B) © (d) Capital Ship 310,000 34,500 307,500 54,800, 706,800 (NELSON Class) (100%) Cruiser, Large 187,000 23,000 93,600 20,000, 323,600 (45.7%) Cruiser, Small 130,000 23,000 57,500 14,900, 225,400 (31.8%) Aircraft Carrier 255,000 414,000 202,500 22,500, 894,000 (36 A/C) (126.5%) Aircraft Carrier 160,000 172,500 162,500 19,500, 514,500, (15 A/C) (72.7%) Destroyer Flotilla 332,000 - 181,800 14,500, 528,300 (J. Class-8 Vessels) (75%) Submarine (1000 tons) 39,800 - 25,700 (e) 65,500, (9.25%) NOTES (a) Maintenance covers the pay, victualling and miscellaneous expenses of the personnel, naval stores, fuel and armament stores consumed, and the cost of annual docking and repair. (B) The figure for aircraft covers cost of replacing equipment (assumed life-5 years) plus annual cost of maintenance of personnel and material chargeable to Vote 4. It has been assumed that Capital Ships would carry 3 aircraft and Cruisers 2 aircraft. © This figure represents the capital cost of building the ship divided by its 'life'. The lives assumed are:- Capital Ships 26 years Carriers 20 years Cruisers 23 1/2 years Destroyers 22 years Submarines 14 years (d) Large repairs take place about the ninth year of the ship's life. In the case of a Capital Ship, a second large repair takes place about the eighteenth year. The figure taken for this column represents the aggregate cost of large repair(s) divided by the vessel's life as scheduled under ©. The actual cost of large repair is, for the most part, conjectural as little or no experience has been gained of these vessels. (e) Submarines are not subjected to 'Large Repairs'. The average annual cost of all repairs and of periodic renewal of batteries is reflected in column (a). |
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| USSR | Sep 4 2008, 04:19 PM Post #21 |
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Proletarii vsekh stran, soyedinyaytes!
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HMS Nelson of 1927 costed 7,504,055 British Pounds.
Are these numbers in British Pounds or in Australian Pounds? |
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| South Korea | Sep 4 2008, 04:38 PM Post #22 |
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I don't know. but since the price of Nelson is stated as 7,995,000 pounds it could be AŁ |
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| Peoples Republic of China | Sep 4 2008, 05:23 PM Post #23 |
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Doubtful. They don't use pounds. |
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| South Korea | Sep 4 2008, 05:24 PM Post #24 |
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They did in 1938 |
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| Peoples Republic of China | Sep 4 2008, 05:26 PM Post #25 |
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You sure about that? All my sources that far back still note it as dollars. Hence the comment. Either way, what is important would be the exchange rate. |
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| USSR | Sep 4 2008, 05:28 PM Post #26 |
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Proletarii vsekh stran, soyedinyaytes!
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I looked for some other facts in regards to the Nelson. Why does Australia cares about british BB's? Nelson never served in the RAN. Pretty weird --------------------- Another suggestion for numbers Ships: Patrol Craft & Minesweeper & Auxilliary Ships < 500 tons standard: 2.0 % (displacement) > 500 tons standard: 2.5 % Frigates < 1,000 tons standard: 3.75 % > 1,000 tons standard: 4.25 % Destroyers < 2,500 tons standard: 5.00 % > 2,500 tons standard: 6.00 % Crusiers < 5,000 tons standard: 8.50 % > 5,000 tons standard: 9.25 % Battleships < 15,000 tons standard: 15.00 % > 15,000 tons standard: 20.00 % Aircraft carrier < 15,000 tons standard: 12.50 % > 15,000 tons standard: 15.00 % Submarines < 3,000 tons submerged: 6.00 % > 3,000 tons submerged: 7.00 % Nuclear powered ships are extra charged with 75.00 %, so a nuclear powered aircraft carrier bigger than 15,000 tons will cost 26.25 % maintenance including salary for sailors. A reclassification should be prohibitted. Onliest allowed classification and numbers in regards to displacement are from en.wikipedia.org. Edit: Change some numbers. They seemed to be too low. Vehicles: Tanks, APC, Artillery, AA stuff: 8.00 % Trucks, Jeeps: 35.00 % Aircraft: Generally 15.00 % All percentages taken from the Price in the Arms thread. These are annually costs. |
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| South Korea | Sep 4 2008, 05:40 PM Post #27 |
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Probably used as an example of a capital ship (Nelson class not HMS Nelson) |
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| USSR | Sep 4 2008, 05:59 PM Post #28 |
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Proletarii vsekh stran, soyedinyaytes!
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Only two ships of the Nelson class BB existed. HMS Nelson and HMS Rodney. Both laid down in 1922 and completed in 1927. The Australian Pound was introduced in 1910 and was pegged with the British Pound. One Australian Pound was 0.8 British pound. Nelson costed 9,380,068.75 Australian Pounds. It would be about 7.50 % of the construction costs as annual maintenance costs. Australian Pound was the currency until 1966, when the Australian Dollar was introduced. Honestly, each vehicle differs in these costs. If you want to make exactly, you would have to do it for every vehicle. So, we should use the aforementioned numbers as a general assumption. Why should we make it complicated, if you have an easy system instead. Easy to calculate and verify. And not that bad, as you can see with the Nelson example
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| West Germany | Sep 4 2008, 08:51 PM Post #29 |
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Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
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And salary for non motorized units? Adler |
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| Ethiopia | Sep 4 2008, 10:35 PM Post #30 |
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I'm not sold on the maintenance of units that Andi has provided. If this is the case, then we are missing big chunks of change when we create our military budgets. I've been discussing this with Matt about the UK budget, and although we've found some room to make change, he's still seriously underfunding his military within his budget. You guys are only spending 3% of your GDP on the military. I'm sorry, but that's not enough. I think you'd be hard pressed to find me a military that was doing this in 1952. The idea that conscription is super awesome is an insult to intelligent people. The idea that it quells unrest is an insult to intelligent people. Conscription (drafts) are not good for society. You wanna use the US as an example? That's fine. How about the massive protests and massive social unrest that took place in the US during Vietnam? Anybody remember that? You think you're going to have an effective military with conscription versus a volunteer Army? LOL! No seriously. You do? You think it's going to help in stability? It's ironic that you use Germany too. I mean, just look at that mess in Afghanistan right now. They killed five people or so, and the entire nation wants them out of there. Why? Because it's compulsory, and people are being put in those positions against their will. That's why the US doesn't have a draft. That is why a draft in the US has zero political popularity. The idea that a population would just be super cool with joining the military for a dollar a day in western country...that it wouldn't face any social consequences...it's just absurd. The idea that this would be a high skilled competent force is absurd to. That's why Chinese conscripts die by the millions in wars versus well paid, well funded, (at least partially volunteer) military. Germany may have a compulsory military right now, but it's still a lucrative job. They don't make piss money. People in the German military on average easily make the average salary of people in Germany. I served and worked with them while I was overseas. They weren't hurting for money. Many of the people I served with stayed in because it paid good money. |
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8:51 AM Jul 11