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A Call For Assistance
Topic Started: Aug 30 2008, 06:06 PM (1,051 Views)
Ethiopia
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Most people have their additional expenditures in their military budgets.
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Great Britain
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I am still slightly confused. I do count my purchases towards the ~6 percent. Am I not supposed to? Am I supposed to be spending ~6 percent of my GDP on pay and maintenance alone?
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West Germany
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Ethiopia
Sep 4 2008, 10:35 PM
I'm not sold on the maintenance of units that Andi has provided.

If this is the case, then we are missing big chunks of change when we create our military budgets.

I've been discussing this with Matt about the UK budget, and although we've found some room to make change, he's still seriously underfunding his military within his budget.

You guys are only spending 3% of your GDP on the military. I'm sorry, but that's not enough. I think you'd be hard pressed to find me a military that was doing this in 1952.

The idea that conscription is super awesome is an insult to intelligent people. The idea that it quells unrest is an insult to intelligent people.

Conscription (drafts) are not good for society. You wanna use the US as an example? That's fine. How about the massive protests and massive social unrest that took place in the US during Vietnam? Anybody remember that? You think you're going to have an effective military with conscription versus a volunteer Army? LOL! No seriously. You do? You think it's going to help in stability?

It's ironic that you use Germany too. I mean, just look at that mess in Afghanistan right now. They killed five people or so, and the entire nation wants them out of there. Why? Because it's compulsory, and people are being put in those positions against their will. That's why the US doesn't have a draft. That is why a draft in the US has zero political popularity.

The idea that a population would just be super cool with joining the military for a dollar a day in western country...that it wouldn't face any social consequences...it's just absurd. The idea that this would be a high skilled competent force is absurd to. That's why Chinese conscripts die by the millions in wars versus well paid, well funded, (at least partially volunteer) military.

Germany may have a compulsory military right now, but it's still a lucrative job. They don't make piss money. People in the German military on average easily make the average salary of people in Germany. I served and worked with them while I was overseas. They weren't hurting for money. Many of the people I served with stayed in because it paid good money.

You have one bad example, because of the situation of Vietnam. Indeed that was the only one, where conscription had bad results. But on the people home and not the troops on the field. And until today in no war except Vietnam conscription did cause unrest. Not in ww1, ww2, Korea. Today in Afghanistan only volunteers are used (they may be conscripts as well, but are there on their own will).
And to pay them like professionals is really BS. Today a conscript gets 9,20 € per day ( http://www.sueddeutsche.de/deutschland/artikel/420/106314/ )! And there are no big problems that's why. Of course most of us in my class would have avoided being drafted. Me, too. But not that's why. That is simply no problem. There are no demonstrations that's why.
We talk about conscription and not professional soldiers. They are a way different matter. However, to assume to pay them so much is ridiculous. Thus I am protesting against the so called underfinancing of my troops!
Conscripts accept that and do their job. But not less or worse than their full paid comrades.

Adler
[IMG]http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1404/3dflagsdeu00010001aux4.gif[/IMG][URL=http://z15.invisionfree.com/World1945/index.php?showtopic=87&st=0#entry236221]West German Embassy[/URL][IMG]http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1404/3dflagsdeu00010001aux4.gif[/IMG]
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USSR
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Andi, I can't find reliable numbers on what the Soviet Union was spending on military expenditures in this era. But I strongly, STRONGLY doubt that you have adequate funding there.


That statement surprises me a little bit. May I quote you?

Quote:
 
Gains

- Nation Adjusting and Embracing Communism -

The central area of the Soviet Union is embracing communism nicely. Issues exist within the periphery of the union, but even there, streamlining of those economies is having a great effect on the union as a whole. Although those local economies are suffering from relocation of funds and products within the entire union itself.

- Well funded Military -

The Soviet Union probably has the most appriately funded military over all the major power players in the game. Reorganization is moving along nicely and leading to more efficient expenditure of Soviet funds.


- WWII recovery -

The Soviet Union is being aided by delayed economic recovery from WWII. Reconstruction and development projects as a whole are adding robust growth into the equation.

- No War in Korea -

Lack of war in Korea helps the Soviet Union most in avoiding the economic stagnation of 1950 that occurred historically.


Furthermore you did not added the military spendings for equipment purchasing with $16,428,000,000. Also military research with about $4,000,000,000. So I spend 9.78 % of my GDP for military stuff. About 50.00 % more than the United States in regards to GDP.

Quote:
 
The idea that conscription is super awesome is an insult to intelligent people. The idea that it quells unrest is an insult to intelligent people.


Why should that be an insult to intellegent people. The very opposite. Everybody is equal. No matter if he is rich or poor. Everybody has to serve. Smart guys and dumb guys. It assures that not only the underclasses have to go to war, but also middle and upperclass.

Quote:
 
The idea that a population would just be super cool with joining the military for a dollar a day in western country...that it wouldn't face any social consequences...it's just absurd. The idea that this would be a high skilled competent force is absurd to. That's why Chinese conscripts die by the millions in wars versus well paid, well funded, (at least partially volunteer) military.


Haven't seen any rumors about this since conscription has been introduced.

Quote:
 

The idea that a population would just be super cool with joining the military for a dollar a day in western country...that it wouldn't face any social consequences...it's just absurd. The idea that this would be a high skilled competent force is absurd to. That's why Chinese conscripts die by the millions in wars versus well paid, well funded, (at least partially volunteer) military.


Those guys died, because they had incompetent officiers, no proper artillery and air cover and they have had very low experience and training. Unlike Germany's military standard which provides well trained men for combat. Do not forget, that the Chinese conscripts died against US conscripts in the Korean War. USA abandoned conscript in the Vietnam era.
Soviet Union
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USSR
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Oh by the way, I forget to write, that you spend only 2.71 % of your GDP for military, Merk.
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I'm also a bit surprised about those negative views on conscription that seems to emanate from a rather narrow perspective of only one nation's experiences during a quite limited period of time.

The Nordic nations have used conscription during the whole 20th century, as well as most nations in the world. In Scandinavian armed forces most officers, many NCO:s and some technical specialists were professionals while the manpower was conscripts who were trained by the professionals. The conscripts served for up to 18 months when they were 18-21 years old, and after that they were recalled regularily to month-long refresher training until they were considered too old for military service (in Sweden that was 47 years old).

Nordic expeditionary forces going abroad like UN missions have always been volunteers from among the conscripted. These volunteers are paid proper wages, while the conscripted men got a daily wage specified by law. This daily wage was in Sweden from 1976 to 1995 40 kronor (in 1990 worth $6.75). If the conscript had family or other economic obligations extra money could be applied for.

Observe that no social upheavals have ever been registered in the Nordic nations due to conscription, and I dare say only a few if any in the rest of Europe. It was and still is a duty to our societies that we don't necessarily enjoy or want to do, but that is generally done without complaints since we share this duty with most other men. It's a social equalizer, a common experience most adult men share regardless of background and present social standing.

Regarding skills of a conscripted force: no training in the world can replace actual combat experience, and this goes for conscripts and professionals alike. The level of training varies among all military forces: there are extremely well-trained conscripted forces as well as quite useless professionals. Consequently any notion of an universal inferiority of conscripts is false, and quite in the face of evidence. Ever heard of the Israeli army?

My own experiences include some time in Balkan where I served alongside representatives of both conscripted and professional armies. Nothing I saw there confirmed any notion of the professional soldier's superiority. On the contrary, it was proved on several occasions that the varied civilian background of the volunteers from nations with conscription enabled them to easily adapt to changed circumstances, take initiatives and act in situations where professionals had no clue.
55 Danes kidnapped by Chinese communists and held hostage.
You are not forgotten.
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USSR
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Amen, father
Soviet Union
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Ethiopia
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Quote:
 
I am still slightly confused. I do count my purchases towards the ~6 percent. Am I not supposed to? Am I supposed to be spending ~6 percent of my GDP on pay and maintenance alone?


No, six-seven percent (maybe 8ish with your involvement in Tibet) for EVERYTHING! Purchases, maintenance, bases, colony maintenance, the whole nine yards.

@ Adler: In what wars have conscripts been shipped off to war from Sandinavia? Just out of curiousity? I see a place for homeland defense with conscription, but not a whole lot when it comes to getting involved in foreign wars.

@ Andi: Yup, I do spend 2.71% of my budget on the military. That's because I basically have none. I'm in a rebuilding phase, and my military budget will going up progressively. I really have no need for an extensive military. My low budgeted military doesn't even have the capacity to keep the peace in the far flung fringes of basically every corner of my country. I also have one of the poorest nations on the face of the earth. I can get away paying my soldiers with food and a roof over their head and get away with it (many third world nations still pay their armies with food and shelter, Djibouti did, and those were all volunteers too.) As my standard of living goes up, I will have to pay more.

Also, remember assets. I basically have no assets. I have roughly 200 tanks, 200 artillery pieces, a handful of MTBs, a handful of patrol boats, two destroyers, and a handful of outdated diesel engine aircraft.

We're talking about the British Royal Navy and the British Royal Air Force. The Royal Navy has HUNDREDS of boats. Top of the line boats. Not used, excess WWII destroyers. It has hundreds of top of the line jets, and hundreds of ultra-modern Canberra bombers.

We're talking about Germany which has a massive military for its time, and is projecting power and force long before it really did in history.

We're talking about the United States, and a nation such as yourself.

I'm not worried about my military. I face the consequences of my military route. Particularly with Matt jumping ship so quick from Eritrea. I started off with NOTHING when it comes to military. No assets whatsoever. Obviously I have much less that I have to spend and keep up.

In regards to your old budget. I'm sorry, I've had more time, I've had more time to look and examine things, and I feel differently now. I've gone back and looked into what history I can find on the internet, and that is what is driving my desire to find out more accurate methods of mathematically modeling the funding of peoples militaries.

It is absolutely imperative that we do this right, otherwise it's going to wreck game balance.

Quote:
 
Why should that be an insult to intellegent people. The very opposite. Everybody is equal. No matter if he is rich or poor. Everybody has to serve. Smart guys and dumb guys. It assures that not only the underclasses have to go to war, but also middle and upperclass. - Andi


Again, I site the same ongoings as before. Protests with Vietnam war at the forefront. If you get yourself into a politically unpopular war, then it's going to have a negative impact within your society. And again, from what I'm reading I can see a place for conscription in regards to domestic defense. Not for sending your people off to die in Tibet, China, or some far flung place on the corner of the earth that people in your country don't give two hoots about.

If we started a draft today in the US and started sending people to Iraq, the shit would hit the fan.

Quote:
 
Indeed that was the only one, where conscription had bad results. - Adler


Does Germany have conscripts in Afghanistan right now? Just out of curiousity. I don't have the time to look it up. But if they do, it helps explains the outcry of the German people to pull all their troops out of there immediately. If Scandinavia sent conscripts to Georgia a month ago, Scandinavia would summarily flip out. If the US were to institute a draft today, the entire country would burn.

I will say this much. Conscription has its place. And in our time period it is rooted almost purely in homeland defense. There is almost no place in it for third country wars.

Quote:
 
We talk about conscription and not professional soldiers. They are a way different matter. However, to assume to pay them so much is ridiculous. - Adler


I've said this on multiple occassions now. The costs of your military personel costs include EVERYONE! Not just your conscripts. But your officers, your enlisted, your senior enlisted. I sent a laundry list to Matt (unfortunately I deleted it, but he may still have it) about everything that these costs include. You are NOT paying your lowest conscript at per/GDP level. Your conscripts make less. Your officers make more. Then there is everything else associated with them.

This is what those costs amount to.

You got that list I sent Matt? Please post it.

Quote:
 
As I said 5-8% was spent by most countries during the Cold war unless at war with higher spendings in the Middle East and the Soviet Union (and insane spendings in DPRK 20+%)and most countries are buying a lot of arms now in W45 which they dont count as defense spendings here. - South Korea


Most people put all their defense spending in their defense budget. This is how it should be, this is how most people do it. Sparing a few inate exceptions.
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South Korea
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Swedish conscripts fought in the Congo crisis, US draftees fought the WW1,WW2 and Korean war without massive protests. A "Just" war is of course more easy for the public to swallow. It also has a lot to do with tradition, those countries that have conscription in peacetime I suspect are more prone (and is more accepted) to deploy these overseas.
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Great Britain
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Ethiopia
Sep 5 2008, 09:35 PM
No, six-seven percent (maybe 8ish with your involvement in Tibet) for EVERYTHING! Purchases, maintenance, bases, colony maintenance, the whole nine yards.

Thanks for clearing that up.
Yes, mine WILL be enlarging, I just did not know the Tibet costs, so as it seemed that would face a real life government also, that will be covered in the 1952 budget.
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USSR
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In regards to your old budget. I'm sorry, I've had more time, I've had more time to look and examine things, and I feel differently now. I've gone back and looked into what history I can find on the internet, and that is what is driving my desire to find out more accurate methods of mathematically modeling the funding of peoples militaries.


I ask you to understand my position. Not far ago my military was great, now it turned into crap. I am very confused.

You demand, that we spend more on our military. Okay, no problem at all. But you dont give us any numbers we could use to work with. You give somebody an aim, but you dont give him information how to get there.

I suggested an easy system to work with in regards to military spendings. It is pretty clear that we can talk about the numbers, but we would have the foundation to work with. It's like fishing in murky waters. We may search information which are maybe classified and not yet released. Why should we make this game more complicated than it has to be? Even though the information would be available, we are not replaying history. I did not act like the old Soviet Union under Stalin. I acted different.
Soviet Union
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West Germany
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Indeed there are conscripts in Afghanistan. But only those who volunteered. The problem is also not conscription, but the acceptance in population. A just war is accepted. A just war causes no big problems. That was the mistake of Vietnam. Not the draft.
Also you told us here to have bigger military budgets. But we don't have any clues about your figures. It would be good to tell them to us.
However, paying conscripts like normal soldiers is ridiculous.

Adler
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Ethiopia
Sep 5 2008, 09:35 PM
Also, remember assets.  I basically have no assets.  I have roughly 200 tanks, 200 artillery pieces, a handful of MTBs, a handful of patrol boats, two destroyers, and a handful of outdated diesel engine aircraft.
...
It is absolutely imperative that we do this right, otherwise it's going to wreck game balance.

Actually, the top statement shows how wrecked the game balance already is when you consider the above to be basically no assets. In RL these assets would have been considered to be a respectable army and navy by most nations of the world including several European.
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West Germany
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Indeed. That's a good force to hold up law and order and to defend yourself properly.

Adler
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USSR
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Look on African armies today, they mainly use surplus M48 and T-54. They would be glad to have 200 Centurions back in the 1950's.

I changed the numbers I suggested and I nearly doubled them. Just to say it for the Soviet Union. My forces are well financed. In some cases overfunded. I also send you my excel sheet, where I did the calculation Merk. You will see, that my budget fits perfectly.
Soviet Union
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