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Topic Started: Sep 2 2008, 10:51 AM (484 Views)
USSR
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Proletarii vsekh stran, soyedinyaytes!
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Quote:
 
I hate to tell you this, but there is no such thing as an international financial market in the set of circumstances we are talking about. Of course you would give money to someone who cannot assure payment, you aren't thinking about financial interests when making a political loan. You're looking at the bigger picture.


I really dont know in which world you live, but I live in another world. Most of the loans set up are bought by banks or private investors who are looking for an attracitve investment. They dont care about political loans. All they want is money, and if cant pay, your property will be pawned.

I agree that SOME loans are interest free to gain political advantages. But most of them, about 90 %, are made to be sold on international finance market to finance your state.

Back to topic. The main issue was the amount of interest. And it is a fact, that countries, which have a bad rating, have to pay more interest. Otherwise nobody will buy any share and you wont get money.

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IF it is in my interests to give a loan with low interest and to an unsecured location, then that is exactly what is done.


That is a definition of a political loan. But a state cant finance itself through political loans. As I already said, you can do it, but this is the very minority of international financial buisness.
Soviet Union
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Peoples Republic of China
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No state has ever financed itself through loans of any type- at least not the nation giving the loans, that is not the point of the loan.

As to political and bank loans- you are still confusing the two. A government, unless they have complete control (in which case there is no point in considering bank loans, because the state controls all funds, and they are therefore irrelevant), gives loans that are separate from banks loans.

All this comes back to is that your argument is and remains specious, and that this is a pointless discussion- a regulated system is not only unnecessary but likely also counterproductive, not only in terms of its historically fallacies, but also those of the game.

Argument closed, no need to continue it.
[URL=http://z15.invisionfree.com/World1945/index.php?showtopic=1336&st=0]Embassy of the People's Republic of China[/URL]
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USSR
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Proletarii vsekh stran, soyedinyaytes!
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Who do you think you are? You dont have to decide, if a discussion is closed or not. I still feel the need to discuss this, because obviously you dont know anything about the international financing system.

Or do you really belive a state like the United Kingdom only has states as creditors? No, not at all. The ordinary salesman as well as international banking groups gave money to the british goverment. And they expect that they will receive the amount they've got promised to, in time. Also they want appropriate interests in regards to the risk, because otherwise they will invest their money somewhere else.

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No state has ever financed itself through loans of any type- at least not the nation giving the loans, that is not the point of the loan.


What else expect financing, do you do with a loan? Does a state borrows money just because all the other states does that, too? Has it become trendy? Of course it is not the onliest fund to finance a state, but it is a method to get money, if you need it. Thus you have the obligation to repay the amount you have received including proper interests. I am sorry to tell you, but those states with unstabile goverment, in an economic crisis or bad reputation in repaying their debts, have to pay more. Thats an easy game. It does not matter if it is a bond or a normal credit. If the bank sees any risks, they demand deposits of security or they will demand higher interests.

If no state has ever financed itself through loans of any type, how does it comes to goverment debts? These are obligations they have to pay, because they borrowed money from someone else.

Quote:
 
As to political and bank loans- you are still confusing the two. A government, unless they have complete control (in which case there is no point in considering bank loans, because the state controls all funds, and they are therefore irrelevant), gives loans that are separate from banks loans.


This would mean that the goverment of the United States controls the funds of Citigroup, Bank of America and JP Morgan. Ever thought where the money comes from? Do you really think USA have the money the want to give ,for example to Argentina, under their pillow? The presidents sleeps on it, ya know. Most of the money is given by banks and these banks expect proper interests. Otherwise they will invest there money somewhere else.
Soviet Union
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Argentina
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The Third Way
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Does anyone else here think the game would be much more interesting, at least in terms of propaganda wars, if Honsou and Andi were on opposite sides of the Iron Curtain? :lol:
Viva Perón!
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USSR
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Proletarii vsekh stran, soyedinyaytes!
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Well, arent we already ;)
Soviet Union
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Ethiopia
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You both provide accurate information.

In regards to savings, from what I have researched I don't think that interest on savings should be more than 2%. States do have a tendency to save money if they have it. It's simply smart. And when they do invest it, they have a tendency of investing it in low interest bonds or CD's that barely break inflation. They put money into area's that are SURE to make money, but that won't make a lot of money.

I have been thinking about the interest on debt for a long time. And I've been doing research on it ever since Simon thought he only had to pay 1% on his debt. Well, he was accurate. I don't know why, I don't know how, but a lot of commonwealth nations were only paying about 1.5%-2.5% interest on their post war debts. So there's no problem with that.

In regards to debt, I think there should be steps from here on out.

1. - You go looking for assistance from other nations. You do the financing between those nations (like I have done for ALL my loans) that way there is no question your rates are.

2. - If you can't find someone to finance you, then your debt is pegged to your debt rating.

How we do the debt rating is entirely up to you guys. But I am of the opinion that it should be based primarily in per/Capita GDP. But obviously other factors should take into account. When was your last war? When was your last coup? How many consencutive years of growth have your experienced? What is recent growth trends?

It wouldn't be hard to come up with a model in excel to do figure this stuff out. Just tell me what the factors should nominally be and I can work on it.
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USSR
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Proletarii vsekh stran, soyedinyaytes!
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You should do a post, where you post the most needed numbers in this game. Like the inflation index, interest rates, maintenance cost etc.

Very helpful for both beginners and advanced players. Furthermore we could avoid these endless discussions.
Soviet Union
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Ethiopia
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Well, these discussions will come up.

I was talking with Elrohir some time ago about developing boards like this. And we both concluded that it would probably take a YEAR to really sit down and develop a board that would run smoothly...without these discussions.

There are tons of things that we could take into account during this game. And my goal, over time that is, is to continue to refine things. However, we must crawl before we can walk, and walk before we can run. So we will iron out each issue as we go. We will do what we can to refine methods performed on this game to seek a true balance.

So far as inflation goes, there really is no inflation right now. Everything you see in regards to GDP growth is after inflation.

We shouldn't discourage these endless discussions. In the end, they will do nothing but better this game. And create better models for future games should we all be friends then!
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USSR
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Proletarii vsekh stran, soyedinyaytes!
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Frankly, I think it will take more than a year to develop. This game runs since December 07 and we currently discussing about maintenance costs, which should have been done before this game has been started. Also the question, if surplus is allowed to use in the next should be cleared even before starting a game like this.

It is right, that you cant think about everything at the beginning, but there should be clear rules. Not for everything, but for the main questions and both aforementioned are basic question in regards to game flow.

Why thinking about inflation, think about the question above first. I would call this an attempt to crawl to follow your example.
Soviet Union
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Ethiopia
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In all reality, I wasn't going to join because of these issues. Simon threw me some bones, so I decided to join. I didn't join one of Elrohirs board games too because of how unrefined the game was. As a result of that, we fell into a discussion about all the things that would have to get done, and all the proper pieces that you would need to have a fair, fully formed, fully played game. It's just staggering to really think about. You'd really need an economist to run things. There's a lot of stuff that is all interconnected. Just hundreds of parameters to take into account.

But anyhow, we all jumped in on something that barely had a skeleton, and it's slowly growing a fair amount of meat and skin. Let's just keep doing our best, within our capacity for time and knowledge, and make the best and fairest framework that we can.
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USSR
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Proletarii vsekh stran, soyedinyaytes!
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I understand your words in a kind of being forced to join this game.

Quote:
 
But anyhow, we all jumped in on something that barely had a skeleton, and it's slowly growing a fair amount of meat and skin. Let's just keep doing our best, within our capacity for time and knowledge, and make the best and fairest framework that we can.


I dont think, that this game has a skeleton. As the discussion of maintenance and all the question of interest shows. There are still some bones but not yet connected properly. But I am very confident, that we are going to fix the remaining basic problems soon.

Frankly, I often enough offered my intention to help, but either there has been no response on my offer or I have been rejected. Hereby I offer you my help once more.

Quote:
 
You'd really need an economist to run things. There's a lot of stuff that is all interconnected. Just hundreds of parameters to take into account.


I'm economist in training. Would be start, aye?
Soviet Union
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