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| Inability To Reform | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 14 2008, 04:58 PM (706 Views) | |
| USSR | Sep 14 2008, 04:58 PM Post #1 |
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Proletarii vsekh stran, soyedinyaytes!
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Hi folks, Wolfhart has left, many others left before. In my personal view mainly due to the following reasons: 1) Behaviour of Admins
This is not the way how mature people should talk to eachother. The private bitchfight between two admins can't be good for this game. The steady ignoring of people lead to the leaving of Wolfhart and I am sure, many other, including myself are thinking about leaving, too.
This is how Wolfy sees the situation. Frankly I feel exactly the same. 2) Lack of development This game is in stagnacy since Simon has left. Nothing has changed, neither in the kind how the game is lead nor in respect towards players. There are no reliable rules and plan how this game should be played. We are talking for month about maintenance costs. You two have not been able to prove your ability to install a system you can rely on. Exactly the same with development. Eq is allowed to build Forrest Sherman and Mitscher destroyer 5 years before IRL. I have to prove everything I do. I was incriminated in a very harsh tone:
It's just kindergarden level, we are currently moving on. So finally, here is the deal: You two have to prove that you are both able to lead this game and develop this game. Invent something new, make a maintenance costs system public. Do anything. If you are not able to do within the next 24 hours, I will leave the Soviet Union and will take over Mauritius or another worthless country or leave, like Wolfy. |
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| Iraq | Sep 14 2008, 05:28 PM Post #2 |
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Then that's what you're gonna have to do. I said when I took this position that classes >> World1945. I have two tests on Tuesday, one on Friday. Sorry lad, but my degree supercedes this game. And again, I said that school and work would be greater than the game. That's just how it goes. As for reforms and changes: We have a rubric for the budget. We have a rubric for ORBATS. We have the beginners guide where the rules are clearly stated, rules that nobody objected to. I suggest you read that if that is really a concern. I won't stop anybody from leaving or even protest it. But the fact of the matter is that I have no time to do what I'd like to do with the game. I don't have enough time moderate, to do orders, to conduct a war, or do anything for my own nation. So what do you want Andi? Nothing is going to change in 24 hours I'm afraid. I'm pretty much going to study and go to work today. And that's just how it's gonna go. If you don't like that, then play Mauritius or leave. |
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| USSR | Sep 14 2008, 05:34 PM Post #3 |
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Proletarii vsekh stran, soyedinyaytes!
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Nobody doubts that real life is over IRL. But you had several month before where nothing happened at all. That'S the point I am focusing on. I dont want to have anything personal. I just want this game to become what it should become, and if you dont have enough time to deal with all private and issues as administrator, you ought think about rejecting from GM and become an ordinary player. We should talk on a mature leave how we can improve this game and do not try to fight our own private wars. It is nothing personal against your Merk, but I think you are a bit overstrained by all your responsibilites. |
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| Ethiopia | Sep 14 2008, 05:54 PM Post #4 |
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I have no guff with you. I was put in this position a heartbeat away from when classes started. I've been attending classes almost the entire time I was put in this position. I was primarily put in this position to assist with putting up battle orders, and analyzing budgets. My position was not originally done to create programs and rules and whatnot. But...I still ended up doing some of that. Those rubrics are my work. The Beginners Guide is my work. I don't really know what you expect from there on out with the extremely limited amount of time that I have. I mean, I was doing the Tibet war, doing battle orders for that damn Isreali-Arab War, fulfilling other orders with the best of my ability. I don't know what you expect out of me, but all that stuff comes before game development. Again, I have school, 500 level engineering classes and Bio. I have work. In all reality it would require 8 hours a day from someone in this position to really get where we need to be. None of this is simple. It's all complex and intertwined if you really want to do things right. None of us have that kind of time. Not me, not Eq, not you, not anybody. We have time to diddlefritz around when we can in our spare time away from school, work, and life in general. Nobody here has the opportunity of devoting 8 hours a day, seven days a week to this thing to really develop a solid foundation. Oh well. What is really needed for a game like this is the following: - A pre-made base with all models ALREADY DONE! - 2 independent Administrators, with an excessive amount of free-time. Moderators that have nothing to do with any of the players in the game, and never recieve input from any of them. - 3 additional moderators ideally from neutral nations. - 50 players that can devote a couple hours a day to actually play the game. This is really the only way that you can do budgets, conduct wars, and have a in depth game to play. We don't have any of that. We don't have these luxuries. We're trying to work with what we got: Both personel wise, and time wise. I've told you time and time again to feel free to submit programs to us. You're more than welcome to do that. But with limited time available to everyone involved, expect to have a limited game. |
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| USSR | Sep 14 2008, 06:12 PM Post #5 |
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Proletarii vsekh stran, soyedinyaytes!
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I appreciate your work for this and I am very thankfull, that you devote your worthy time. I know that your day is very stressy. I also did not mentioned that it is your fault. I spoke to both of the admins. It has never been my intention to insult you. But I just wanted to show some of the problems this game is into. Frankly we are talking for hours about problems, but in the end, there is no decission. We are in the issue, but do not conclude it. I know that it takes a lot of time to develop and adjust such a game. Take the model for mainteance as an example. I did research on numbers, I also phoned the german ministry of defence for assistance and they named me some books where I can find information even on older tanks, jeeps, trucks and that stuff. I put this all together and developed my model which I also posted. It was handable and easy to verify in regards to information. I really dont know how you got to the idea most the militaries have been underfunded. I sent you my excel sheet with the information, but I still got no response on it, if it fits or not. You might have your own model to calculate the need for the military, but you should share it. Otherwise players have no chance to create a budget that fits their needs. Every budget is a gambling game. And this does not increases the trust in this game. Histroical numbers could be taken as a background to get an overview over the situation, but you can not use them as the onliest way to moderate this game. We are already too far away from the historical happenings. Many things are completly different than IRL. So, we should not develop models based on IRL dates, because they are mostly outdated, but models which could be used also for an alternate history, which this game is, no doubt. |
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| France | Sep 14 2008, 06:39 PM Post #6 |
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Liberté, égalité, fraternité
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Elvis put it pretty well " A little less conversation, a little more action " I think the total loss of interresting in discussing is because it drags oooon forever! The only times we reach any decision is when the admins put the foot down and say " HEY, this is how it shall be " |
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Tremblez, tyrans et vous perfides L'opprobre de tous les partis Tremblez ! vos projets parricides Vont enfin recevoir leurs prix ! Tout est soldat pour vous combattre S'ils tombent, nos jeunes héros, La terre en produit de nouveaux, Contre vous tout prêts à se battre ! | |
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| Ethiopia | Sep 15 2008, 01:38 AM Post #7 |
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Well Bob, the problem with "This is how it shall be!" is that when we make a decision like, "You will not pay 3 billion dollars to make knock of AK-47's" people run off. It's not so simple. The actual beginners guide took a lot of time to refine and get feedback on. Decisions in the game regarding conflicts are an extreme pain in the ass. Because I can't be on everyday. I won't be on until Wednesday. So if there is a conflict tonight that requires my input, then a month and a half will pass before I can address it. Maybe Eq won't be able to make a decision. Maybe he can't because it involves one of the nations he's stewarding. It's not easy. Andi, in regards to your excel sheet, I looked it over, and it's fine...but...you gotta provide me more than what you tell me. I need links, I need sources, I need to verify information. I want things accurately done, and I want to MAKE SURE that things are accurately done so that these imbalances are corrected. I damn well know that some of those western militaries and other militaries are underfunded. They are underfunded -- Period. I need time go in depth and look at what you did, look at your assets. Again, that's not easy either. To sit there, go through everyones freakin' Orbat from top to bottom. It's incredibly tedious. The military is one area where you really need a completely independent admin. You need someone who has a lot of knowledge and a lot of resources on this information. We really need an independent admin to keep everyones military budgets in check, make sure things are rolling along in a realistic manner and whatnot. Again, we don't have that luxury. |
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| USSR | Sep 15 2008, 04:58 AM Post #8 |
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Proletarii vsekh stran, soyedinyaytes!
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What do you expect from me? Do you expect, that I go back to the library, where I got the information? Copy nearly 50 sites from a number of books, scan them in and send them to you? Honestly, that's ridiculous. Why dont you sit in the library for hours and search for information? As long as you dont provide these information, and this is your task as admin, I won't send you anything, because I neither have the time nor the will to do it again. And if you complain about, that you don't have enough time, resign.
You know it, but where are the evidences? Provide numbers, charts and sheets. As long as you don't do so, your words are just assumptions. After all, you have to admit, that some things happened in this differently from the real life. That's why you cant commit all players to play like their historical model. We are not replaying history, you've pointed that out several times. Yet you force us to use the historical budgets even though the situation might be completly different. I would assume, that you first think about this conflict and after this you think about military spendings. |
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| West Germany | Sep 15 2008, 07:51 AM Post #9 |
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Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
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I agree totally with Andi. He is completely right. You say, you have little time. Okay, I understand. Frankly, I will have less time from October. However, then you have to resign. You told me a year game time ago, my Turkish forces were underpaid. But you didn't tell me why. You didn't give any of us any idea for your calculations. The only calculations I could make were these of Andi. And therefore I have based my own calculations. As I have one base to calculate from. OTOH you gave us nothing. This is a living game and we need to discuss the rules to keep it living. But you didn't give us any idea. You say, some militaries are underfunded. But you don't explain it. A period is nothing worth, if it is not based upon rules. And even then we should be able to discuss them. Please give us the opportunity to discuss the rules, to make proposals and to uderstand your actions. If you have less time, okay, but then you should resign as GM. I know, I know. We need more player, more Mods and so on. True. And RL has absolute priority. True. But we need to discuss the rules, too. We need also these rules as base. And therefore we need to know them. This is not meant to be offending or anything in this way. But only my opinion, what to make better. Adler |
| [IMG]http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1404/3dflagsdeu00010001aux4.gif[/IMG][URL=http://z15.invisionfree.com/World1945/index.php?showtopic=87&st=0#entry236221]West German Embassy[/URL][IMG]http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1404/3dflagsdeu00010001aux4.gif[/IMG] | |
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| Peoples Republic of China | Sep 15 2008, 09:55 AM Post #10 |
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So, the way I see it, the GMs have too much to do and too little time to do it. First off, I like to congratulate all the Admins and GMs, past and present, for all their hard work, sacrifices and effort for this game to work. The main problem I see with this game, for lack of a better word, is this: we started too early. We rushed into it like excited idealists / eager totalitarians we are. We tried to achieve too much, too quickly, with too little resources. We started without much mechanisms in place, and we made up rules/code of conduct/stuff as we go along. All this time without even enough players to fill even the key nations, even with some very dedicated players (I salute you) playing multiple nations. Over at CFC there is an ill-fated forum game called "War at Civfanatics" - it's pretty much like this. It has no clear agreed to rules (by this I don't mean the basics which are covered in the new players guide but rather agreed code of conduct, or mechanisms to determine military, economic, technological advancement, or war, diplomacy or espionage in a way that is fair and acceptable to all players, and et cetera). The war system in particular is quite arbitrary and unsurprisingly the game soon degenerates into a mess very much like what happened here. There have since been three attempts to revive the format, all failed (I should know, I started one of those abominations). This is actually World 1945 v.2. This game outlived the original one considerably, but as I see it this game is still plagued by the same problems that doomed the first game. RL is of course a very big factor, but essentially the problem is with the game itself. Having GMs/Admins who are also rulers of the United States/Great Britain/etc was, in hindsight, a bad idea. The arbitrary system of technological advancement was a bad idea. Jumping into the game when we were not ready was a bad idea. If we reform, we need concrete framework in place for stuff that happens in game before we start the clock. We need interests in the game - 20 really motivated but really busy people is clearly not enough for a project this ambitious. It is an ambitious project, and it is a very nice idea, and which is the reason why I continue to play this game (for, ooh, almost a year now?) because World'45 has a lot of potential. And here my rant ends for today. Hope this will still be around when I return in a couple of days. Cheers, Taillesskangaru Zhongnanhai, Beijing, China |
| [URL=http://z15.invisionfree.com/World1945/index.php?showtopic=1336&st=0]Embassy of the People's Republic of China[/URL] | |
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| Ethiopia | Sep 17 2008, 02:32 PM Post #11 |
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I expect some verifiable information so that I know that you are not pulling information out of your bum to artificially inflate your military. If you have links, is it so hard to send them to me? I haven't sat for hours in a library, but I have spent hours looking of information on costs of personel. As far as evidence goes, I provided evidence. Military's that have advanced research, have more arms, more state of the art equipment, have fought more wars, still have enormous number of personel yet spend HALF of what was spent historically = ASB. ASB. There is absolutely positively NO EXCUSE for the UK to have gotten away spending a pittance on their military as they have done in this game. Nonewhatsoever. You say, "we're not playing history" and that's fine and all. But you seem to think that diverting from history should have no consequences whatsoever. You think you should be able to give your soldiers nothing, and face no negative side effects from that. You single handedly complain about the game getting unbalanced, but then you turn around and pretend like it is at all realistic to inflate the capabilities and increase the capacities of the military, but think at the same time it's A-OK to have REDUCED military expenditures. It's totally absurd. As to providing numbers, that's bogus. I have repeatedly stated what the bases were. And I also posted various maintenance numbers for some pieces of equipment. But I suppose that doesn't really matter now, because this game is dead because Simon and Eq didn't get their way and were called out on their bias and hypocricy and have started a new game which they will maintain complete dictorial control over and will ensure that their bias and hypocricy go unchecked. So have fun over there. |
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| France | Sep 17 2008, 03:18 PM Post #12 |
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Liberté, égalité, fraternité
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No one escapes from the law.. I will be watching Simon and his budgets.. closely :ph43r: |
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Tremblez, tyrans et vous perfides L'opprobre de tous les partis Tremblez ! vos projets parricides Vont enfin recevoir leurs prix ! Tout est soldat pour vous combattre S'ils tombent, nos jeunes héros, La terre en produit de nouveaux, Contre vous tout prêts à se battre ! | |
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| USSR | Sep 17 2008, 03:41 PM Post #13 |
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Proletarii vsekh stran, soyedinyaytes!
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Yeah you did provided numbers:
These numbers are ridicoulus. A tank costs $100 per km when it drives. Not per year. If would have taken a look into the sheet I've sent you would have recognized, that I spent more on my forces, especially your Air Force and Army numbers are extremly wrong. Also I added personal costs. But you've never took a serious look on. Just like on my other suggestions. Your boneheaded, narcissistic behaviour weakened this game dramatically. The onliest possible solution was the one you've suggested. Nothing else counted. Nobody in this game ever reduced it's military spendings. The very opposite took place. I indeed complain about your unfounded assumptions. THAT has killed this game. |
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| Ethiopia | Sep 18 2008, 02:49 AM Post #14 |
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Unfounded assuption? Look at military spending versus historical spending. People were spending FAR LESS on military expenditures than with actual history. That's a fact. UK was spending 3.875 AFTER gross increases under the Simon era where he was spending less than 2% on military. Yet, he managed to have a stockpile of nukes that he said would have wiped you out during Operation Winter Storm. Think about that. Military numbers across the board in the early game were precariously low. And there's no justification whatsoever for them. If you'll notice, in regards to the land assets that I note that there are modifiers which are associated with them. Those modifiers INCREASED the actual cost of those units. You're right. I never took a serious look at what you wrote. I took a moderate look at it, but never got into it BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO DO IT! It's not because I was like, "Oh, fuck Andi and this shit." No, it was more of a...I'm on campus until 10PM every fucking night trying to get my shit done for school and I don't have the time to really look into that. Furthermore, it does me no good to look into those numbers when I have no idea if they are legitimate numbers. I needed some basis to cross check and verify their validity before implementing them into the game. Again, the notion that all these militaries were perfectly fine spending a fraction of what they spent historically is laughable. THAT IS WHAT UNBALANCED THE GAME!!!! I don't understand why you're fighting with me...I mean, I was the one trying to pull everything back into balance militarily, and for some reason your yanking my crank here. It's very odd. So far as unfounded assumptions: I challenge you to find me ONE COUNTRY in this game that spent a larger percentage of GDP at this point in history on their military than they did in this game. Just one. Good mother fucking luck at that. |
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| Ethiopia | Sep 18 2008, 02:52 AM Post #15 |
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Oh, and one more thing. It wasn't my narcissistic, "It's my way or the highway" approach. #1 - I asked for help with this shit when I originally became a mod. Nobody offered anything substantive up. So you get what you got. #2 - As I was doing budgets this last time is when I started the next call for help. Those budgets were already done for the most part. I started that thread so we could have a more refined model for analyzing the 1952 budgets. That thread speaks for itself. What ultimately killed this game, and will kill the next game, is people whining, bitching, moaning, and LEAVING when they don't get their own way. The other thing that will kill the game is the fact that Simon and Eq are running it. So it will invariably favor them over other players. They will go unchecked, people will get pissed about it, and it will crumble. When you have moderators who don't play by their own rules, it makes things extremely difficult. |
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8:50 AM Jul 11