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153-1; Why people think the U.S. is insane
Topic Started: Dec 7 2006, 06:02 AM (431 Views)
Bex
puppet dictator
Eral
Dec 11 2006, 02:47 AM
The gun permit classes sound eminently sensible. Much better than that bank shown in "Bowling for Columbine" where you got a gun when you opened an account. :o

As far as my knowledge goes, Moore staged that part for dramatic effect (not necessarily the givaway, but the part where you just got handed the gun ASAP).

If law-abiding citizens could all be trusted to store and use their guns safely and never ever lift them against another person in an act of rage, maybe I'd be less inclined to err on the side of control. But we're emotional critters and tend to act before we think things through.
I belong to one of those families that does not speak to or see its members as often as we should,
but if someone needed anyone to fall on a sword for her, there would be a queue waiting to commit the deed.
-Min Jin Lee
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
It's not easy to get permits in most places in the US.

I think it's at the discretion of each county's sheriff.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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underdog
Member Avatar
Irish Breakfast
@Joe.
It used to be in MN, until ~5 yrs ago, they passed a 'shall issue' law, which means if you meet the preset requirements, they have to issue, it's not up to the discretion fo the issuing authority(sherrif) anymore.

• Types of RTC laws. There are 40 RTC states: 36 have “shall issue” laws, which require that carry permits be issued to applicants who meet uniform standards established by the state legislature. Alabama, Connecticut and Iowa have fairly-administered “discretionary-issue” carry permit systems. Vermont respects the right to carry without a permit. (Alaska, which has a shall-issue provision for purposes of permit-reciprocity with other states, adopted a no-permit-required law in 2003.) Of the 10 non-RTC states, eight have restrictively-administered discretionary-issue systems; two prohibit carrying altogether.

@Bex.

• RTC permit-holders are more law-abiding than the rest of the public. Florida’s experience is illustrative. Florida has issued more carry permits than any state (due to its large population and having had an RTC law since 1987). Also, Florida reports its permit statistics statewide (most RTC states do not) and is the only state that reports permit revocations due to gun crimes by permit-holders. As of 8/31/06, Florida has issued 1,178,523 permits, and revoked 157 (0.01%) due to gun crimes by permit-holders.

Background. Before 1987, there were 10 RTC states. Indiana, Maine, New Hampshire, North Dakota, South Dakota and Washington had “shall issue” permit laws. Alabama and Connecticut had fairly-administered discretionary-issue systems. Georgia’s “shall issue” law was interpreted as discretionary in some jurisdictions. Vermont allowed carrying without a permit. Other states had restrictively-administered discretionary-issue carry permit systems or prohibited carrying altogether. These laws remain in effect.

In 1987, Florida enacted a “shall issue” law that has since become the model for other states. Anti-gun groups, politicians and news media interests predicted vigilante justice and “Wild West” shootouts on every corner. The predictions proved false. Through 1992, Florida’s murder rate decreased 23%, while the U.S. rate rose 9%; thereafter, murder decreased both nationally and in Florida.9 Then-Florida Licensing Division Director, John Russi, noted that “Florida’s concealed weapon law has been very successful. All major law enforcement groups supported the original legislation....ome of the opponents of concealed weapon legislation in 1987 now admit the program has not created the problems many predicted.”10 In a 1995 letter to state officials, Dept. of Law Enforcement Commissioner James T. Moore wrote, “From a law enforcement perspective, the licensing process has not resulted in problems.”

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=18

Actually I haven't had or used guns all my life, (like it may have sounded) I bought and used my first gun this year, (I'm now 44) I have never had a problem with law abiding citizens having guns, because law abiding citizens don't commit crimes, and typically aren't prone to go around shooting up people or anything like that. My wife's parents are gun dealers, so she grew up with guns around so she had no problem with them either.
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
What about the number of people who are shot in their own homes by family members? Sometimes because they are mistaken for a burglar?
The NRA's information is meant to be persuasive. They're a lobby group. What are the figures on all the other states? Higher? Lower?
Law-abiding citizens get mad like anybody else. Sure, the 157 out of a million looks like a good figure: but that's still 157 families with a hole in them because someone didn't use their gun properly. In one state.

The purpose behind having a gun seems to me to be to shoot people.
I can see why it is desirable to shoot someone before they shoot you, but quite frankly, if someone breaks into my house with a gun, I don't see my chances of getting my gun out before I am shot as too good.

The only two people I know who have been around guns are a policeman, and a farmer's daughter who was accustomed to using a 22 shottie on the parrots eating the crops.
I don't have a strong fear of being carjacked, or mugged, or having my home robbed while I am in it: I'm not living in fear of my life. Why have a gun?



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Joe
Coffea Canephora
underdog
Dec 11 2006, 02:26 PM
@Joe.
It used to be in MN, until ~5 yrs ago, they passed a 'shall issue' law, which means if you meet the preset requirements, they have to issue, it's not up to the discretion fo the issuing authority(sherrif) anymore.

• Types of RTC laws. There are 40 RTC states: 36 have “shall issue” laws, which require that carry permits be issued to applicants who meet uniform standards established by the state legislature. Alabama, Connecticut and Iowa have fairly-administered “discretionary-issue” carry permit systems. Vermont respects the right to carry without a permit. (Alaska, which has a shall-issue provision for purposes of permit-reciprocity with other states, adopted a no-permit-required law in 2003.) Of the 10 non-RTC states, eight have restrictively-administered discretionary-issue systems; two prohibit carrying altogether.

Well that's good, then. I live in the Bay Area in California; they're never going to let anyone have a permit.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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underdog
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Irish Breakfast
@Joe I thought it was bad in the Peoples Republic of Minnesota. :)

@Eral

shot in own homes probably isn't tracked by them because you don't need a permit to carry to own one in your own home, so it's hard to correlate the numbers.

That's 157 gun crimes, that could be threatening, brandishing, armed robbery, (not even harming anyone) getting busted with drugs in possesion of a gun, or shooting someone, it doesn't track what types they were, other states apparantly don't keep track.

Other evidence of tighter controls seem to indicate that you wouold have more deaths and carnage then you get with looser laws.
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Re...id=72&issue=020
What has happened to DC since banning all guns, gun crime skyrocketed. even though no one supposedly had a gun, tat seems like a lot more families with a hole in them.

If I'm not mistaken you live in Australia, a lot lower population (density) and lower crime rate then portions of the US, I'm in rural MN, fairly low crime rate also, not living in fear of car jackings etc, but as said earlier don't usually carry one but can if I want to.

If you had the gun nearby you could get it outin time, the old guy in one of the earlier stories linked to, got his single shot .22 out from bed.


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Eral
Kopi Luwak
Yeah, but like my grandad, he probably kept his loaded. :lol:
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
underdog
Dec 12 2006, 09:10 PM
@Joe I thought it was bad in the Peoples Republic of Minnesota. :)

Tell me about it!

I understand that even a jeweler who has to transport diamonds in his pocket down the street is not likely to get one in my county.

I live around 30-45 minutes from both San Francisco and Berkeley, though, so what are ya gonna do.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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lara
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Kopi Luwak
I thank God semi-regularly for gun control.

We have about 6 million people in the greater Toronto area. There are about 600,000 in the Florida county where one of our recent computer trainers at work lives. When I told him how many people were killed by guns in the Toronto area last year, he laughed and asked how many people live here. Apparently twice as many were killed by guns in his county. He doesn't understand why they don't have better gun control.

Many people are shot by criminals who have found their guns before they found their guns. Many more are shot by criminals who stole lawfully owned guns.

No guns, no gun crime.
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Joe
Coffea Canephora
No, just crime with other weapons.

When the UK banned handguns, knifings increased. I also think handgun crimes have gone up since then as well (lol).
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants I've begged for protection?
I'm freezing
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Krazy
Member Avatar
I haz powah!
Maybe, but then we don't have routinely armed police and I believe that is a big factor in crime not escalating to the everyone has guns stage.

Knives are still a big problem though, a recent amnesty failed miserably.
"Well, ‘course dis one’s betta! It’s lotz ‘eavier, and gots dem spikey bitz on de ends. "
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Eral
Kopi Luwak
If Martin Bryant had been armed with a knife, nearly everyone at Port Arthur that day would be alive now.

Knives seem to go in cycles here: at one stage youth workers were expressing alarm at the number of young people carrying them. After a particularly gruesome assault on some young men by attackers with machetes, import restrictions have greatly reduced the number of knife crimes here.

re: weapon amnesties - people hate giving away their toys unless they have to. At the time semi-auto rifles were banned, people were burying them in their gardens rather than hand in them.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/gun...5685756597.html
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